Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Good lord, maybe I'll have to rent the new dvd and compare..?!?!?!




The blacks certainly didn't look deep on the BD. Except in the scenes in the docs..!

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Dave, et al. you're more than welcome to rent the SD DVD and compare it against the BD, as I would be more than happy to hear the results; however I wouldn't put too much stock in the reviewers over at DVD Talk. They don't strike me as the most discerning bunch sometimes. For example, there was a glowing review of Flash Gordon: Savior of the Universe Edition that made no mention of edge enhancement that was so pervasive you ought to be declared legally blind if you didn't see it.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Just saw these screenshots taken from the new DVD of the new version. From dvdtalk. the critic there liked it, (but admits he doesn't have the old dvd) but to me, this looks very flat, and much darker than before. These were grabs off the dvd, not like mine taking a photo.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I'm afraid that I'm at a loss to understand the path of thought that has gone into some of the current commentaries regarding FFC's Dracula.

Although I haven't yet been able to view the new BD, the correct path for review is clear.

Making comparisons to old DVDs, laser discs or VHS tapes is only slightly better than culling one's information from tea leaves.

There is but a single source of proper information, yielding a representation of the image not affected by the needs of various video formats.

OAP

Original Answer Print.

The comments currently surrounding this disc make for an interesting commentary, which I'll try to post in the next week.

My fear is that the problems exist not with the disc, but with the methodology of reviewing.

RAH

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

- Now that's a worthy quote! This could also easily apply to the Halloween debate.


Thank god somebody with knowledge on the subject said this because it needed to be said.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I have this title on preorder. It's certainly my favorite
Dracula film to date.

I have been reading these posts with much interest and
from an outsider who has no idea how the film is supposed
to look, I don't know if I should cancel my preorder or not.

Robert Harris brings up some good points and perhaps for
once we are seeing this film exactly as it was intended. I do
know for a fact that Sony has been very good lately with
bringing the Director aboard to supervise these transfers. On
the other hand, I think many of us also realize that studios
aren't always as trustworthy when it comes to proper handling
of transfers.

I'll continue to monitor this thread very closely.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

This being one of my fav films I too am interested to know more about the thinking that went in to this new transfer. I haven't seen this new transfer yet but all I can say is I certainly don't remember it being overly dark in the theater. Not like what I'm seeing in those screen grabs (and I realize screen grabs can be misleading).

I don't think anyone is saying the old dvd/vhs should be the standard with which to judge this film by as they too may not be correct (and apparently not). But at least they were not so dark to the point that certain images that were obviously meant to be seen are now so obscured by black that they lose their purpose (superimposed journal entries, facial expressions).

This new transfer may be closer to what was intended but I can't help but think things went amiss with certain scenes (judging by what I've seen from this thread)...

Can't wait to hear more about this from the experts.....

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Mr. Harris' thoughts will be interesting to read. I hope he is able to find out some strong factual information via his sources.

Hopefully he may do the same for Halloween.

Thanks for your efforts.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

One would hope that someone of Mr Harris' status would be able to get the ear of Mr Coppola, and provide a definitive statement about the transfer from the horse's mouth, so to speak!

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I don't trust the horse. Coppola may have simply decided that he wanted a Lucasesque "new look". What we really need is someone with access to an original film print, peferably with the means to show what it looks like. That's objective evidence, not "it's better because I decided it's better".

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

The thing is, aside from it being much darker, flatter and washed out looking now, (the end credits are red, over black. Well, on this the black isn't really black) the process they used to "re-do" certain scenes where they drastically desaturate the color just looks very digital and bizarre. They left the faces (and Lucy's red hair) saturated but made the background almost black and white and it honestly looks like what you'd see with "colorization" There are scenes where there are candles, torches on fire and there is now a little red halo around all the flames, (NOT there on the dvd) where the desaturation happens, it's just weird, artificial and digital looking.

I do agree that the director should have final say but it can get interesting. For example, I record and mix one of my songs for my CD. A few weeks later I listen to the mix and try another mix. I can wind up with a dozen or so and each time I think, "I GOT it! This is it!" My better 1/2 always kids me about this. Whenever I say, "FINALLY! I got it!" She just says, "That's what you ALWAYS say." This is all just within a year while making my record. If I came back to the same songs 15 years later, I have no idea HOW I'd look at them and would probably remix them all all over again and they would wind up VERY different.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I may just have to go ahead and buy this. I love the film and if this is the best we get, I'll have to bite the bullet and hope on my display it's not horrible. I wasn't going to buy it, but, it seems it's this release or nothing for now on HDM. If this is indeed what Coppolla intended the film to look like and he confirms that as fact, then that's good enough for me. I'd rather have what the director intended (altered or not) then an untrue presentation of any film. Sometimes we don't get a choice such as the Bond films. When the original director of the film supervises for me that makes it different.I can accept the alterrations, recolorrings,new effects,etc,etc,....I just hope that this is what he want's and not some kid at a masterring studio F' ing up the print. Nah, that would never happen in this day and age or would it ?

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I do think it's still worth getting, Troy.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Since I was one of the persons who brought concern to the
table, allow me to provide you with some information that I
have obtained. You folks are going to have to trust that what
I am telling you is factual.

First of all, there have been some notes about BSD from our resident
Blu-Ray "insider" that was recently posted on another forum....


Now, according to the conversation I just had with a noteworthy
individual, these facts are correct as noted during the actual time
of transfer.

This transfer was completed last year and was overseen by a
representative of Zoetrope along with Sony's best transfer people.

You should all be happy to know that your comments on this forum
are being read by the people you want to read them. This is why we
so much appreciate the fact that you have kept this thread polite and
constructive. One of the comments passed on to me was that the
people that author these films are puzzled about repeated comments
on the fact that just because a film looked one way when it was first
released on DVD means that it was correct that first time, and cannot
at all accept a different, though talent-approved or sanctioned, look for
a later release.

As I have discussed in a few threads within this forum, more than any
studio, Sony works with talent -- either directors or DPs -- to authenticate
their own work.

After having this information provided to me, I am under the impression
that though this transfer may look vastly different than any previous
effort, it does represent the vision of the filmmaker.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Ron,
Thank you for that information which goes back to RAH's comments about comparing presentations. My preorder of this BRD will stay active.






Crawdaddy

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

And as I said before, the detail is not gone - it is all there in the picture. You have the choice to reveal that detail if you find the director's intentions disagreeable - that then becomes a disagreement between you and Coppola; it's nothing to do with the makers of the disc.

I think Coppola has graded it too dark. It is certainly darker than I remember it in the cinema but then we have to consider projection anomalies. However, I tweaked the picture a little and was very happy with what I saw; it looked beautiful. Taken as a package, it's a great disc.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Although I'm not particularly interested in this BD release I am, or rather was, interested in replacing my Superbit DVD (and Criterion laserdisc) with the new DVD SE. And since I believe that disc will use the same new master as this BD I have been following the discussion about its transfer with interest.

Despite the "official" statements to the contrary I am still somewhat sceptical. Let's not forget that the new Bond sets were supervised and approved by Eon Productions but they're still awash with errors (most of which were denied!). And the Star Wars trilogy was supervised by Lucasfilm (including Ben Burtt) but they still managed to completely **** up the music score on Episode IV (which was also denied!). So the fact that this new print of Dracula was supervised by "a representative from Zoetrope" doesn't necessarily convince me. I'll wait to hear what the official word is from FFC and for Robert Harris' professional comparison.

Then again the fact that Dracula's original burned-in captions have been replaced by player-generated ones (presumably on the new DVD too?) already PROVES that this film has been altered from its original theatrical presentation and therefore cannot truly represent FFC's original vision unless those gorgeous captions were forced onto the theatrical print against his will. So based on this fact alone I'm probably sticking with the Superbit after all.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Unfortunately the answer print is out of reach for almost all reviewers. Assuming specific release prints look pretty much the same (not guaranteed) one could use one (but where find it?). Or one could try to remember how something looked 15 years ago. Very unreliable in general. So usually one has to be content to apply general criteria. If the reports of color corrections within the frame are correct there is no answer print supporting them. Dracula is a before DI age film. Pre DI Color timing in the lab can not keep faces constant and change the rest without very expensive sfx work. Unless Coppola made a new DI and an answer print from it the OAP approach won't help with these shots.
We don't even know if a new HD transfer was made or an older one tweaked. What film elements were used (OCN or IP) and if Mr. Coppola personally looked at the finished master and approved it or had a representative do it for him.
But maybe Mr. Harris with his good connections to Zoetrope can find it all out for us and tell us how it is. We are all looking forward to his findings. :-)

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Fully agreed, Ron. It's just so puzzling that the identical footage in HD in the Docs. DOES look better. There is more detail, it's sharper, better defined. The color "black" actually looks "black" like in Harker's journey to the castle where in the film itself on the BD it is lighter, a greyish black. Information is now lost, I have boosted my Pj's brightness as far it will go, played with the gamma too and things that are easily seen in the doc. footage, like the roof of the inside of the coach are not there. That's the only reason it's so odd. The fact that there are words from Harker's journal CLEARLY superimposed over his image now are virtually invisible and very hard to make out.
And some of these changes are indeed VERY "revisiony"
I can understand wanting to dial down some of the saturation and maybe make it a bit darker but when a shot goes from this...

Sb dvd





to this...

BD, DIFFERENT color, Green.



That's not just a slight change in color timing. That's changing the original film. Unless the print used for the VHS, dvd and SB dvd ALL had the wrong color timing in just that one scene and everything was off.

And I'm sure that when this was in the theaters, (though the last time I saw it was in 1997 at a revival at MOMA in NYC) it had more detail than just a 720x480 dvd blown up to theater screen size.


And I'm sorry, but any transfer that you have to tweak your display that much is botched IMHO. What if every transfer were like that? There is a standard for a reason. So one sees the material the proper way. Otherwise you'd have to keep a list of all your PQ adjustments for each release. Kinda nutty if you ask me...

But if they REALLY think that this is the best it could look and this, (as dark and washed out looking as it is now with odd, inconsistant choices of only certain scenes being desaturated and others looking virtually identical to the over the top colorfest that we all (even if mistakenly) got used to all this time then is really how it always should have looked, well... ok.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Better is pretty subjective. You may think that the footage on the documentary looks better, but its possible that Coppola doesn't. Frankly I would never color time a film the way they did with 300, I don't particularly like that style, but to say it would look better if it looked more the way I would like is just wrong.

I'm not sure why you would tweak your display to see something that the film maker apparently didn't want you to see. I guess my only comment is that if this is the way Coppola wants it to be seen who are we to say he is wrong? Maybe he really wanted the words from the diary to be almost subliminal. Maybe he felt that in the previous video releases you were seeing far too much.

I added this one to my netflix cue. I've never actually seen this film on video so I only have my memory of seeing it in the theater. It will be interesting to see how this matches up.

Doug

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Again John all I can say is that if these releases are supervised by the people who created them in the first place, who are we to say they are wrong just because they are different from what you are used to seeing.

The burned in captions were left off because this transfer is going to many different countries. They would have to do a different transfer for every language it's going too. However I do think they could have chosen a font that looked closer to the orignial.

Doug

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

very true, Douglas.

It's just that so far, the 3 website reviews from hometheaterspot, highdefidigest and another all gave it a pretty lackluster rating with chad only giving it a 3 out of 5 for PQ and that was the BEST it receieved. All the people at AVS who got their copies early also chimed in saying it looked disappointing with a few saying it looked "terrible" and these are not all "I hate film grain, where's my 3-d POP!" types who sometimes kvetch on forums about director's intent. Many of these people sound quite knowledegable. Most like me were BIG fans and were expecting to if not be totally blown away taking shooting style into account, at least be somewhat satisfied with the disc. I know the Sony insider states that Coppolla shunned digital FX and that because of the many shots that are optically printed, the master would be soft. The WHOLE master? Every shot? There are opticals for maybe 10% of the film's running time, maybe less. So in all those shots that WEREN'T optically composited does the resolution still look the same as DVD? They weren't shooting through gauze.
I went to NYU film school, used to shoot, edit and then actually do my own negative cutting. Used to shoot industrials back in the day, then switched to video but ALWAYS did photography and am generally pretty knowledgable about some things and have been told by friends and clients that I have a good eye and shoot very well. Not trying to boast, (I generally just do music and other things now) but am trying to explain where I'm coming from. Hell, I thought the BD of "Rocky" (first fight scene in the church notwithsatnding because there it just looked like the film was pushed) and "A Christmas Story" looked very good though both were slammed with comments like "It's TOO grainy! Looks TOO soft!" I thought they both looked swell.
Just to go to all that reported hard work to come out with something as unremarkable looking (style and intent noted) seems almost like a waste of time. Especially if many are saying they regret the purchase or wish they would have kept the dvd.

Many times years later, bands will go back and remaster their albums, thinking they are making them sound better or making them sound "the way they always should have" and very often these "remasters" to ALOT of people will sound worse. They will be Much louder, more compressed with no dynamic range. So sometimes, 15 years later, just take the paintbrush away from the artist and let it be. So Dracula might have went from being a brighter, more colorful, more striking looking film where the over the top colors matched the somehwat bombastic, boroque, VERY theatrical treatment. Now it looks almost drab. The wonderful costumes by Eiko, (save for the red Vlad robe) now are very underwhelming. The amazing sets, much more hidden. The beautiful matte paintings, not nearly as effective or anywhere near as dramatic.
The HD transfer on cable last year looked GREAT. Much like the SB disc but just more detailed. If all this time, this was wrong, how come nobody ever mentioned it? Where was the "The Dracula DVDs are WRONG! That's NOT how the film looks!" threads?
Wasn't the laserdisc transfer supervised by Coppolla? (I don't have it) I don't recall people who owned the laserdisc and the got the SB dvd to have pointed out any differences or made a fuss. So if the Laserdisc DID look like the SB dvd and was "supervised and approved" then which version is correct?

But, if this is what they really wanted. A shame. I thought it looked better before.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I'm not debating that some people aren't liking the way this new release looks. I'm wondering however how much of that opinion is based on the previous video releases which if the powers that be are to be believed, weren't approved by Coppola and don't look the way he wanted them too. After years of viewing a video that is incorrect, are we judging this new release based on that, or on what the film makers intent was?

I used to cut my own negatives too till I got fed up and just paid someone to do it.

Doug

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

True, Douglas.

But someone needs to check the laserdisc. That reportedly WAS supervised and approved, by Coppolla I believe. Now if THAT looks different than the BD...

Lucas-style revisionism.

If it DOES look like the BD, then why did the Dvds get no crticism? Honestly. I'm REALLY curious.

Anyone have the LD...?

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I really don't know. Like I said I never actually saw this film on video other than maybe seeing a few second of it on HBO or something.

Doug

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I have the Criterion laserdisc, Dave. Please can you give me an idea of the counter reading for the green-tinted Drac screenshot above and I'll try and have a look.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Sure John but can't do it now. Everyone's asleep and the set is off.
I will in a few hours!

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

As I won't have a BD until next week, I can't yet speak to specifics, but I can to certain generalities.

I can also attest to the fact that the information posted by Ron is true and accurate, as I know the people involved.

As to captions or, on some films, subtitles, these are generally not on the film elements used for current transfer or scanning, as they are not a part of the original negative or derived interpositive.

They are often replaced, sometimes from original sources, sometimes not, as best fits the video world and it's needs of sizing and resolution.

It is also true that only a select few individuals are ever able to see a final answer print, as those prints are tightly held, and only used for purposes such as this.

As to what a film looked like in a theatre, this is of very little help by virtue of the fact that one is generally dealing with a print produced as high speeds as a one-light, that may or may not represent the wishes of the filmmakers.

Add to that the quality of the theatre in question. The exigencies faced when attempting to run a film correctly for a special audience?

Poor color temperature, focus, image instability and finally, screen illumination, that can easily fall to 8 footlamberts on a large screen, when 16 is the magic number.

But wait, there's more!

As prints were cycled, one could easily end up viewing a print timed for a drive-in in a normal theatre.

Overall, unless one is viewing in a controlled situation, one's memories of what a film looked like are of little value.

Even when one is attempting restoration or preservation work, the simple act of locating an original dye transfer print is of minimal value without further research and comparison.

RAH

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

One thing to note. Although the "subs" during the dialog spoken in Romania aren't the original burned in ones, there is a burned in title for the location like, LONDON 1897 or "Captain's Log-DEMETER" or "Dr.Seward's Journal" when the film goes to the "present" Surprised me as the earlier "subs" when Vlad and hopkins spoke are player generated.
And what's bizarre is that you'd think in the shots now WITHOUT the burned in subs for dialog since it would be just the unoptically printed original negative for that shot, the detail would look better. It doesn't. The identical shot WITH the burned in subs that is seen in the doc. looks more detailed IMHO.

BD film version




in the doc. version, (original burned in subs) you can see detail and depth in his hair on the sides of his face~!



Now maybe they just had a better print for the earlier HD master, maybe they filtered and darkened the new one too much...
Since it would appear they MUST have gone back to the original negative itself to get these shots WITHOUT the optically printed "burned" in subs, maybe the negative isn't in as great a shape as it was.
The BD film shot that is only ONE element SHOULD look ALOT better.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

While I can get a sense of the difference in the way it was color timed from the images you posted, I really can't get a sense of resolution from your screen shots. Hopefully I'll have this title in a few days.

Doug