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Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

#31
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9/27/07 at 1:57am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Hometheaterspot has chimed in 3 out of 5 for PQ but noted that suppossedly Coppolla never liked how the film looked on DVD. Maybe the crazy over the top colors that we all saw for years (I even had the VHSs, both FS AND WS) were incorrect. Possible. I had no problem with the color alterings but I just wish it hadn't been crushed and PQ detail previously seen is now gone.
And still, I saw this on a giant screen and while it may have been a wee bit soft, it surely looked more detailed than a 720x480 dvd! The hd version I saw on comcast last year had more detail.
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#32
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9/27/07 at 6:02am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Set at THX levels, yes, the image does seem excessively dark. But after a bit of tweaking the tv controls (brightness,gamma,contrast, blacks etc), it looked absolutely fine. The detail is all there, folks; and now, so much of the movie makes visual sense. For example, in the last chase sequence, look how much more realistic the stages of sunset are. And all those blues and oranges in the SD screengrabs are completely irrational; I think Coppola was right to change them. So I don't think people should be cancelling their orders so readily unless you steadfastly refuse to change your settings.

Totally agree though that losing the burned-in subs was a big, horrible mistake.

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#33
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9/27/07 at 6:27am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Re: Taking away burned in subtitles.

It's so the disc can be more international. Hence the 22 subtitle streams. For whatever reason, most major studios like clean masters (i.e., no burned in narrative subtitles) for international releases.
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#34
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9/27/07 at 8:24am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

paidgeek had this to say at the Blu-ray site:


There are a few things that those critical of the latest Dracula transfer should know.

1. The new transfer was supervised. This means that a representative from Zoetrope was charged we checking the color correction to make sure it met with the intentions of Mr. Coppola.

2. The new transfer and color correction were not done hastily. This title was carefully planned for BD and we were given the full cooperation of Zoetrope to get it done right.

3. The masters used for the DVD versions of this title were not endorsed by Mr. Coppola, the BD version is. The color correction on the DVD releases was not what Mr. Coppola wanted, regardless of the fact that the elevated brightness in some scenes on the DVD can reveal something not seen on the BD.

4. The answer print of the film is darker than the Blu-ray (answer prints are the approved color timed result that release prints are supposed to match).

5. Mr. Coppola intentionally shunned digital special effects techniques on this film in order to get a result that had the look of the classic horror films. The optical effects lead to some dirt and softening of the master.

A great deal of time and effort went into the remastering of this film, so it is more than a little disappointing that fans would not just second guess the wishes of the person that made the film, but would judge some of the work as careless or incorrect? From what I have read on the forum, the issue seems to stem from the darkening or color adjustment of a few scenes that leaves the viewer with less discernable picture information than was visible on the earlier unapproved release. If your display is properly calibrated, then rest assured that there is information in the video on most titles that you are not seeing. It is your choice if you want to turn up brightness to reveal some dark detail that is not necessarily supposed to be revealed.

I suspect that if we originally released a Dracula with a darker image, then released the Blu-ray with a brighter one, then perhaps these issues would not have been raised. Just remember that the film is supposed to set a mood and tell a story, not dazzle you with the picture details in the shots with a darkened room.
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#35
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9/27/07 at 8:47am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Neilson
Set at THX levels, yes, the image does seem excessively dark. But after a bit of tweaking the tv controls (brightness,gamma,contrast, blacks etc), it looked absolutely fine. The detail is all there, folks; and now, so much of the movie makes visual sense. For example, in the last chase sequence, look how much more realistic the stages of sunset are. And all those blues and oranges in the SD screengrabs are completely irrational; I think Coppola was right to change them. So I don't think people should be cancelling their orders so readily unless you steadfastly refuse to change your settings.

Totally agree though that losing the burned-in subs was a big, horrible mistake.

What you said makes sense and paidgeek's comments are "comforting." I'm going to go through with purchasing this.
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#36
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9/27/07 at 9:21am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave H
paidgeek had this to say at the Blu-ray site:


I suspect that if we originally released a Dracula with a darker image, then released the Blu-ray with a brighter one, then perhaps these issues would not have been raised. Just remember that the film is supposed to set a mood and tell a story, not dazzle you with the picture details in the shots with a darkened room.

I disagree with this statement. I'm confindent that we would be just as concerned had the picture been blown out by too much brightness.

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#37
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9/27/07 at 10:50am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Even when I adjusted my PJ and cranked the brightness WAY, WAY up, all the details are NOT there.
And if they DID transfer so a normal calibrated monitor, or PJ makes it look VERY bad and you MUST adjust your display , contrast, brightness AND gamma to view it sort of correctly, isn't that like a bad mastering job on say, an audio CD where you would have to crank your bass on your amp all the way up and kill all the treble for it to sound "normal"...? I would just call it a bad mastering job or a bad transfer.

One shouldn't HAVE to fully recalibrate their display to watch one title. Isn't there some guide, some standard to use...?
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#38
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9/27/07 at 11:11am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I'm having Star Wars on DVD flashbacks. Super-clean image, but new colors and really, really dark. Though this seems to be moreso.

My midis bring all the Force to the yard; my midis are better than yours!

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#39
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9/27/07 at 11:35am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

The new version (based on the 'screamshots') does have a "colder" theatrical feel to it (from older horror films if you will). I'm going to rent or buy this, so it will be interesting to see on my own display and compared to the SD.
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#40
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9/27/07 at 11:47am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

"screamshots"...


awesome!

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#41
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9/27/07 at 12:33pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I'm going to rent it too. If it looks too dark on my CRT, it's way, way too dark.

And ponder on the revisionism when you consider the movie took home 3 Oscars for makeup and production design.

The makeup will of course look way different, and you can't see a lot of the production design.

It really is Star Wars all over again isn't it?

My midis bring all the Force to the yard; my midis are better than yours!

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#42
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9/27/07 at 2:00pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
It really is Star Wars all over again isn't it?
Yes it is, including the "your criticisms mean nothing, what you see is what the creator of the film intended" defense.
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#43
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9/27/07 at 2:58pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant H
I'm going to rent it too. If it looks too dark on my CRT, it's way, way too dark.

And ponder on the revisionism when you consider the movie took home 3 Oscars for makeup and production design.

The makeup will of course look way different, and you can't see a lot of the production design.


Let us know what you think Grant. I am using a Mits hc3000u PJ (light cannon in the PJ world) with a grey screen for better blacks.
I would just think my settup is wonky but on the same discs with the same settings, all the scenes in the docs looked MUCH better. Less flat, washed out, black was "black"
I used to have a Mits Diamond 55"CRT set. Top of the line. Looked fab...

oh well...

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#44
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9/27/07 at 3:44pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

As a dedicated fan of this movie and one who saw it in the theater when it originally ran back in 91(?) I can honestly say I always thought the VHS/DVD version always looked the way I remembered seeing it. In fact I thought it was one of the most beautiful films ever on home video for a time with it's lush color pallete. I am willing to accept the new version is correct if that is indeed the case but those player generated subs....ugh

The burned in subs had a very cool font and was part of the fabric of the film I always thought....

still havent gone blu yet....getting close though
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#45
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9/27/07 at 3:50pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I'm glad a couple of you have chimed in and believe the DVDs looked like the theatrical version. At least Coppolla was good about making theatrical and reviseds version both available on DVD. Doesn't seem like a good start for Blu-ray.

I've only watched my SB once I believe (I handed down the original DVD I think), and I, too, remember thinking how beautiful the film looked. That's the version I want, but I'm curious to see what it looks like. It's at the top of my Netflix queue. If I get the movies I have watched I'll see. I hate revisionist color timing (as my rants on Alien, The Matrix, and Star Wars have proven), but I think my monitor at work is a bit dim, so I should really wait and judge the brightness on the HT. I can see a case for some of those shots looking a bit too bright in the opposing screencaps, but I've read few comments suggesting this release isn't crushed.

Face it: After you fall in love, you want the object of your affection to keep looking the way you remember.

My midis bring all the Force to the yard; my midis are better than yours!

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#46
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9/27/07 at 3:59pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

http://www.digitalaudiovideo.com/blu...iews_14772.htm

another poor PQ review

For a film of such visual beauty, it is a disappointment that it looks so dated. One would hope more could have been done for the visual quality. With a direct comparison to dvd, there aren't too many marketable difference. Presented in 1.85:1 widescreen and encoded at 1080p, grain is often a consistent problem. Many of the foggy nighttime scenes are difficult to see.(!!!! my point exactly!) I suppose that's the point of a foggy scene, but I do believe more could have been done. On the plus sides, the colors are quite strong, especially the red of Count Dracula's robe. Overall detail is often lacking, however- with a general softness to the frame.
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#47
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9/27/07 at 5:29pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I don't understand the point of losing so much composition just to create a darker, moodier look. I mean, I clearly remember the Harker diary entries superimposed over certain scenes when I saw this theatrically. Those screen caps make them look completely obliterated now with the added 'blackness'. Whats the point of them being there if they weren't intended to be seen by the audience?

If this was intended then so be it...But it just doesnt make a lot of sense to me...

Perhaps certain scenes needed a little more supervison in handling these fine details that I consider crucial to the storytelling instead of tossing them out the window in favor of deeper blacks...
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#48
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9/27/07 at 6:35pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

After looking at those screenshots I might just cancel my BD pre-order and go pick up a copy of the SB.

Sometime's you reach what's real by making believe.

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#49
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9/27/07 at 7:01pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Hiya Ron!

I would definitely netflix the BD if you can.

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#50
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9/27/07 at 7:04pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

WazzUp Dave?

I don't do NetFlix so that's out. But, I really don't see a need to rent it anyway after looking at those shots. I don't own this film...yet, but I don't see a reason to buy the BD, at least not now. I'll wait and maybe they'll redo this they did with The 5th Element.

I'm bummed as I really wanted this title in HD but not now anyway.

Sometime's you reach what's real by making believe.

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#51
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9/27/07 at 7:19pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Well, Edward Scissorhands is still coming!

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#52
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9/27/07 at 7:23pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Oh well, this was one of my more anticipated titles. I think I'll still get it, but I'm definitely not getting rid of my SB DVD.

I too saw it in the theaters, but only on its theatrical run, and only once. Plus I was in college and on a date, so I certainly won't be able to say for sure which version matches what I saw in theaters.

One thing's for sure, if it obscures Ms. Bellucci's "goodness" in any way, I'm going to be pissed

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#53
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9/27/07 at 7:37pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack
Well, Edward Scissorhands is still coming!

Oh, I am so jazzed. I sure hope it's not all fubar'ed like this one is.

I've been wanting BSD for quite sometime so it's off to BB to pick up the SB. I just got back from Amazon and canceled this title from my pre-ordered list. Bummer......

Sometime's you reach what's real by making believe.

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#54
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9/28/07 at 2:21am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Neilson
. So I don't think people should be cancelling their orders so readily unless you steadfastly refuse to change your settings.
.
There are technical video standards for a reason. Sources have to be mastered to standards and the same standards have to be used when watching the material. If you need to fiddle with your correctly calibrated display to make the source look correct the source is incorrectly mastered by definition. Period.
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#55
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9/28/07 at 2:33am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack
http://www.digitalaudiovideo.com/blu...iews_14772.htm

another poor PQ review
For a film of such visual beauty, it is a disappointment that it looks so dated. One would hope more could have been done for the visual quality. With a direct comparison to dvd, there aren't too many marketable difference. Presented in 1.85:1 widescreen and encoded at 1080p, grain is often a consistent problem...
Huh? So grain is a problem in itself? What a clueless remark. If the reviewer wants to complain about the grain he should have a good reason. Its mere existence is not one at all. If the grain is distorted due to bad compression complain about the compression (but better know enough about compression to tell it apart from other issues). If there is excessive grain due to unnecessary use of higher generation dupe film elements complain about the film elements chosen (but make sure you know what was really going on). If you just don't like visible grain per se, well don't blame the disc, transfer or film. Blame yourself. Film is made of grain. Period. And it's not always supposed to be invisible on a HIGH DEFINITION source. Such stupid remarks have only the effect that studios in the end start to listen to them and apply generous DNR with disastrous results for image quality. :-(
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#56
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9/28/07 at 4:29am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

He also said this which you left off your quote...


"Many of the foggy nighttime scenes are difficult to see.(!!!! my point exactly!) I suppose that's the point of a foggy scene, but I do believe more could have been done. On the plus sides, the colors are quite strong, especially the red of Count Dracula's robe. Overall detail is often lacking, however- with a general softness to the frame."


Everyone who has seen the disc has said it's too dark and washed out making MUCH of the image in dark scenes look almost indiscernible. Black is no longer black in this transfer. It is a dull, washed out greyish black, crushed and details in the shadows are MUCH less than before. And it still looks virtually no more detailed than a decent dvd. Now, I saw it in the theaters several times, once just a few years ago at a revival and it certainly didn't look like a 720x480 SDdvd blown up on the big screen.
And usually when you DO see a good amount of grain in a BD or HDdvd it's because there still IS alot of detail. Not so here. Grainy, yet very undetailed and flat looking.
I for one have no problem with grain. I own Sleepy Hollow on BD and think it looks great. This does not.
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#57
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9/28/07 at 8:01am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I just read a review on the DVD over at DVD Talk. They give it a Collectors Series rating. Five stars for the video. Now the question would be does it look better than the Blu-ray?
Also worth noting, the reviewer says the other versions are lacking, for various reasons, like no extras. He said he didnt have the other versions, so he wouldnt know how this transfer looks compared to them.
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#58
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9/28/07 at 8:08am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I don't remember a lot about the theatrical appearance of this movie, but I do remember that the words on the walls were plainly visible (though I don't think they were quite readable). So that's an indication of a problem.

"This movie has warped my fragile little mind."

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#59
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9/28/07 at 8:38am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michel_Hafner
There are technical video standards for a reason. Sources have to be mastered to standards and the same standards have to be used when watching the material. If you need to fiddle with your correctly calibrated display to make the source look correct the source is incorrectly mastered by definition. Period.
+1

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#60
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9/28/07 at 9:29am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickER
I just read a review on the DVD over at DVD Talk. They give it a Collectors Series rating. Five stars for the video. Now the question would be does it look better than the Blu-ray?
Also worth noting, the reviewer says the other versions are lacking, for various reasons, like no extras. He said he didnt have the other versions, so he wouldnt know how this transfer looks compared to them.

Just got done reading the same review (DVDTalk) and it's difficult to tell from the way he describes the video quality what he means by "dark blacks go deep".

Quote:
Originally Posted by DVDTalk
Video:
There is plenty to be happy about with the new Bram Stoker's Dracula - Collector's Edition, and the picture quality is one of them. As noted, I don't have the older versions of the DVD, but this 1.85:1 anamorphic, hi-def transfer is pretty sweet. The colors are rich and varied, and the dark blacks go deep. It appears to be a very meticulous job, overseen by the director, and utterly free of compression, glitches, or dirt.

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