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Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

#151
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10/1/07 at 8:34am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

All of this is moot, if during the production of the laserdisc, regardless of how good or problematic the color may be, there was no matching to the final answer print. One can approve something without that benefit, and the results can return with a bite worse than the subject matter.

RAH

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#152
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10/1/07 at 8:52am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein
On the other hand, I wouldn't put it past a studio to deny that
there were mistakes in their work when it came to authoring.

Ron,

This is certainly possible. However, the more I think about it, the less likely I believe it is true in this case only because Sony has been doing an outstanding job on its more recent Blu-ray releases. In addition, with a Coppola title such as Dracula, I'd have to give Sony the benefit of the doubt that they put sufficient effort and diligence to ensuring this title looks as good as it can (shy of a complete restoration) based on all of the circumstances. I could be wrong, but that's just my take.
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#153
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10/1/07 at 8:58am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
I have trouble believing that a comb filter would make color changes as radical as those shown in post #79. It was always my understanding that the quality of the comb filter made the biggest difference in the amount of video noise, not color accuracy.

Our composite color system has never had accurate colors. There is a reason that NTSC is jokingly referred to as Never The Same Color twice.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
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#154
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10/1/07 at 9:31am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Post #98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hillenbrand
The contrast of the GREEN is so different from the other media, that IMHO, it has to be a deliberate decision/choice, not just an accident.

Wish someone could view the original film strip.

Paul


Post#104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack
I saw it at a revival at MOMA (35mm print) and it certainly didn't have scenes so desaturated that they almost looked black and white!


Post #151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
All of this is moot, if during the production of the laserdisc, regardless of how good or problematic the color may be, there was no matching to the final answer print.
RAH


Post #153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Our composite color system has never had accurate colors. There is a reason that NTSC is jokingly referred to as Never The Same Color twice.

Doug

Anyone have information on who would have access to the final answer print of "Bram Stoker's Dracula"?

Paul
My Blu-ray / HD DVD / DVD Collection
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#155
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10/1/07 at 10:04am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
This is certainly possible. However, the more I think about it, the less likely I believe it is true in this case only because Sony has been doing an outstanding job on its more recent Blu-ray releases.

...and let me make it clear that I support RAH's statement over
any other here. I'm simply stating as an overview of the industry,
I don't always trust the studios are getting things right 100% of
the time. The James Bond sets are the PERFECT example of that.

Sony has had a good track record as of late, and they seem to
be especially interested in looking through these forums to get
feedback and react as much as they are able to. Based on the
personal information I have received, I believe Sony is in the
right here.
Ronald J Epstein
Home Theater Forum co-owner
Email me at: repstein@hometheaterforum.com 
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#156
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10/1/07 at 10:10am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I too am inclined to trust RAH's statement here, being the only one who actually is considered an expert in the field.

And yes, Sony does have a good track record as of late...and if they messed this up in the final stages they have shown they'll be willing to, with enough prodding, issue a replacement (a la The Fifth Element BD).

I am looking forward to RAH's viewing of the BD though, and his impressions which will follow.

For the record, I completely understand Dave Mack's frustration at the fact that seemingly all previous home versions looked one way, and this one looks completely different. I don't think there's any denying that fact, those screenshots are startlingly different.
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#157
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10/1/07 at 10:32am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein
...and let me make it clear that I support RAH's statement over
any other here. I'm simply stating as an overview of the industry,
I don't always trust the studios are getting things right 100% of
the time. The James Bond sets are the PERFECT example of that.

Sony has had a good track record as of late, and they seem to
be especially interested in looking through these forums to get
feedback and react as much as they are able to. Based on the
personal information I have received, I believe Sony is in the
right here.
Sony might be in the right, but what if Zoetrope was not in the right? What if the "representative" from Zoetrope screwed up? Do we even know if Coppola personally saw and approved of the changes (or corrections) after they were made?
Also, I can't imagine that Coppola would be happy with the captions.
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#158
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10/1/07 at 11:49am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Yes, player generated subs are heinous, especially when the original burned in subs had a very cool (and film-appropriate) font!

With Blu Ray's ultra-smoothed font styles (make DVD player subs look like Atari 2600 generated fonts), you'd think they would have been able to use a cool font similar to what was on the original film. If not, they should have retained the original burned in subs.
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#159
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10/1/07 at 12:12pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

They probably removed the burned in subs so that they could do them in multiple languages.
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#160
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10/1/07 at 1:07pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
They probably removed the burned in subs so that they could do them in multiple languages.

That's no excuse IMHO. They could easily place the foreign subs ABOVE the burned-in ones. That way everybody is happy. The integrity of the original film is preserved and all the receiving countries are satisfied.

Paramount manages it. As does Fox. As does Universal (in R1). As done Warner Bros. As done New Line.

For some reason Sony (and sometimes MGM) manages to mess them up. I'm extremely disappointed that the trend is continuing into HD media.

Don't get me wrong though, R1 is positively fantastic with burned-in captions compared to R2. I stopped buying R2 entirely for this reason!
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#161
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10/1/07 at 2:54pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John H Ross
As done Warner Bros.

Actually, Warner uses textless masters quite a bit. It's just that in the US we usually don't see them. However, now that studios use the capacity of HD-DVD and BD discs to encode the disc for multiple regions expect to see it more often.

Warner has a few upcoming titles on BD that are "World Wide" releases. Sometimes people wonder what Warner is doing with the extra 20GB of space on BD. Well, this is one answer - making one version of the disc for the world with several subtitles, audio dubs, and menu language sets. I mean, why make 6-7 versions of a release when you can make one?
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#162
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10/1/07 at 4:01pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

If somebody finds a 35mm theatrical print and produces a screenshot, will it be regarded as "correct"? Or can a film print be 'wrong' compared to the original camera negative?

"Did you know that more people are murdered at 92 degrees Fahrenheit than any other temperature? I read an article once. Lower temperatures, people are easy-going, over 92 and it's too hot to move, but just 92, people get irritable."

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#163
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10/1/07 at 4:05pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack
His wines are actually very good and he makes a MEAN olive oil!

I noticed some of his more recent bottles of red wines have had a different color of red compared to other batches I've seen...



Vincent
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#164
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10/1/07 at 4:09pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

An original camera negative has no "look," and a 35mm release print is of no use.

RAH

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#165
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10/1/07 at 4:13pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I'm going by memory here as I no longer have the Criterion BRAM STOKER'S DRACULA laserdisc set, but as I recall the actual transfer was supervised by Francis' son Roman.

Also, at the time Columbia released their own laserdisc that had a completely different transfer, supposedly supervised by Michael Ballhaus, and guess what? Some controversy arose at the time as the two transfers looked pretty different from one another, with the Criterion being noticeably darker, and even framed slightly differently.

Vincent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack
Michael, apparently there was a pretty big sticker on the shrinkwrap of the LD, (that some people still HAVE!) with the info. and a mockup of Coppolla's sig. I believe.

I just did a quick google search. Found this.


"Criterion Collection Triple Laserdisc Set of Coppola's Popular Gothic Thriller

Deluxe Director-Approved Edition * Exclusive New Digital-to-Tape Transfer by Maria Palazzola * Excellent Picture Sound Mastering * Definitive Digital Surround Transferred Directly from Dolby Six-track

Color * Widescreen * 3 Discs * 127 Minutes * Full-Featured CAV Format * DSS

Extensive Supplementary Section Includes:

Exclusive Audio Commentary by Francis Ford Coppola, Roman Coppola, and Greg Cannom * Interactive "Hands-on" Editing Workshop * Isolated Music and Effects Track Option * Production and Behind-the-Scenes Photos * Production Stories * Original Storyboards * Special Effects Analysis * Costume Design Analysis * Making-of Featurette * Original Theatrical Trailer
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#166
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10/1/07 at 4:45pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Conway
Actually, Warner uses textless masters quite a bit. It's just that in the US we usually don't see them. However, now that studios use the capacity of HD-DVD and BD discs to encode the disc for multiple regions expect to see it more often.

UH-OH! :-(
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#167
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10/1/07 at 5:30pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
An original camera negative has no "look," and a 35mm release print is of no use.

RAH

Robert just curious in a case where you don't have access to the director or the director of photography on a restoration project, what would you use as a reference for what the final print should look like?

Doug
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#168
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10/1/07 at 5:32pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

another review...

http://www.dvdempire.com/Exec/v4_ite...anchor=1#59890

1 out of 5 stars for video...

"See the title character shielding his eyes on the box cover for this Blu-ray release of Bram Stoker’s Dracula? That’s not because of the sunlight, that’s because he caught a glimpse of the horrible transfer Francis Ford Coppola’s movie has been given in high-def (and presumingly on the standard DVD special edition as well).

How bad is the video on this Blu-ray release? Well, if I hadn’t known going in, I would have swore I was watching a standard DVD...and a poor one at that. Not only is the picture “soft,” with tons of grain and little definition, but even the color that stood out in previous releases of Bram Stoker’s Dracula has been pulled back or removed all together for an earthier and muddier look.

The question here is, what exactly happened? Rumors are that Coppola’s American Zoetrope studio insisted on handling the current transfer themselves, and if that’s the case, let’s hope they don’t get their hands on Coppola’s Godfather trilogy or Apocalypse Now if and when those films come to hi-def. I’m not kidding, folks – of all the hi-def movies I own on both formats, Bram Stoker’s Dracula is far and away the worst looking of the lot.

I suppose it’s some consolation that the transfers of the movie don’t seep over to the bonus material. The extras that are presented in 1080i – consisting of a Coppola introduction to the movie (at the beginning of his feature-length commentary track), and some behind the scenes featurettes – are crisp and clear, and even offer some clips from the movie that are far sharper than the same footage from the movie transfer on this disc..."


Gee that last bit about the clips from the film looking FAR better in the docs. sounds EXACTLY like many of us are saying.

Isn't it just POSSIBLE that this is a badly done transfer...?!?!?



and now after discussing this at BluRay.com..

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=17144&page=5

and getting insulted and attacked there, I've been banned.
http://www.myspace.com/franbro
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#169
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10/1/07 at 7:40pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Dave, i for one thank you for your comments. If this is just another in a long list of mistakes from both DVD and the HD disc media manufacturing, these things happen. But, if Zoetrope WANTS it to look this way, i will keep my money. For me, its that easy.
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#170
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10/1/07 at 8:29pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

thanks. appreciated.

Hey, people kvetching about the first BD "The Fifth Element" transfer got some results, yes...?



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#171
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10/1/07 at 9:18pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack
Hey, people kvetching about first BD "The Fifth Element" transfer got some results, yes...?
Maybe, but the same person making the same points over and over and over and over again probably hurts as much as it helps.

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#172
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10/1/07 at 9:47pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Mr. Harris just posted this thoughts. My thoughts are even more confused than ever. Of course i will rent it. I did have it on order, but a rent seems to be the safe way to go for the moment. Could we all be so used to the way we have seen it we forgot what it should look like? I dont know, but i will.
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#173
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10/1/07 at 9:51pm
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

In answer to Mr. Monce's query, one uses THE approved answer print. This is what occurs even if one hopefully does have access to a director and DP.

RAH

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#174
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10/2/07 at 3:05am
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Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Apparently, the new BD version is meticulously restored in accordance with the approved Answer Print.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
Now that I've received a BD copy of Bram Stoker's Dracula, and have spent quality time with it, my immediate reaction is that finally I have a high definition (BD) version of a film that I've always enjoyed.

This is somewhat tempered, however, by the public reaction which has been coming from any number of directions. And these reactions, commentaries and reviews have virtually all been wrong.


Comparing a new version with previous and possibly non-conforming releases is always dangerous, of course. But it's sad when people who dutifully and professionally do their jobs applying high standards and ambitious goals are smeared even when they have been able to achieve such high artistic results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
One of the extraordinary points of the high definition medium is that finally we can reproduce films to look as they did on film.

The new transfer of Dracula is a magnificent work, which along with the audio with it's heavy lows, delicate highs and aural details -- the sound of mice walking quickly across a beam -- is miraculous to behold on home video.

Dracula is a dark film. It has always been a dark film.

It is also a film created not by digital pyrotechnics, but rather by analogue effects and cinematic slight of hand. This is an old fashioned horror film. Print it too bright and the magic is revealed; the horror disappears; the story vanishes, and one sees through the magic.

The color in this release finally matches that of the original prints -- controlled, colorful when necessary -- but dark. The blacks on this release work well, and shadow detail, when needed is at hand.
I'm glad we have the final facts now.
The answer to the question posed in the title of this thread is here: "Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?" No, none at all!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
Bram Stoker's Dracula, from FFC and Sony is Extremely Highly Recommended.


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