Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Dave,
At this point, you're repeating what has already been posted in this thread as well as others on the internet. Again, you're welcome to your opinion, but that doesn't mean that those who disagree with your conclusions are wrong in doing so.






Crawdaddy

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Sadly, Dave, I reckon you'll simply end up banging your head against a wall over this. There are still some people out there who maintain that the flipped surround music channels on SW Episode IV are, in fact, absolutely correct and fully represent how they were originally supposed to sound. Anybody with half a brain and even the slightest bit of musical knowledge KNOWS that this is utter bull**** but because Lucasfilm said that it was so then it MUST be so (we all know how much Ben Burtt values music after all... sigh...)

Same thing with the ghastly misframing on Goldeneye. These cockups are not a matter of taste, nor a matter of re-interpretation, they are screw ups and PLENTY of people know it. Unfortunately there will always be a significant number of other people who will defend the changes as "intentional" for whatever reason... (perhaps their careers/reputations are on the line, or they don't want to admit they've wasted their money, or they want to protect the format, or they don't want to feel bad for throwing out their old version, who knows).

I suspect that it won't matter whether this new master of Dracula is done right, done wrong, approved, not approved, technically correct or a complete balls up, at the end of the day we'll be told that it IS right - possibly by people who know what they're talking about, possibly not - and we WILL have to accept it.

At the end of the day, we still have the SB DVD! :-)

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

and I guess the 8 minutes of misframed Pirates of the caribbean, (which is still being looked into) is ok too. Someone supervised it, no?

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Indeed!! :-(

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Its been three pages since i last read this thread. Thanks to Mr. Harris, Ron, and of course Dave for the thoughts. Based on what i have seen from the screen grabs from Dave, and from DVD Talk, and based on what i know right now...i dont like what i see, and hear. I will be VERY curious to read what Mr. Harris has to say once he watches his disc. I dont mind color change. As a matter of fact i love when a restoration brings out colors that were long faded. But i do mind when detail is lost. If i cant tell what i am looking at, when i used to, its to damn dark!
Ron, remember the opening credits to Live and Let Die!
Same thing, only in reverse!

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I don't even mind the color changes so much. But the color black is now not black in the transfer, it is a dullish greyish black and that SEVERELY changes the look of many of the shots. They look, flatter, less detailed, dull.


But to all getting the disc, I do hope you enjoy it. I and many others and so far every critic has been disappointed.

d

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Is that why you appear more passionate about this than the new Halloween Blu-Ray? I'm not asking to be a dick, I'm just curious because you seem OK with Halloween but up in arms about what seems (in my mind) to be about the same issue.

EDIT: I don't want to drag this off topic but more than anything I'm curious.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I see no "issue" with Coppola approving two different looking transfers. To me, it just means he changed his mind or is more happy with a different look.

Keep in mind Silence of the Lambs has two different color timings and BOTH were approved.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Travis,

In the halloween thread I said MANY times I thought the transfer looked great, jaw-droppingly so. Go do a search or my posts if you so desire.
I merely pointed out that in SOME night scenes, the new BD of Halloween looked like the divimax which reportedly had the wrong color timing. A few shots. I also mentioned the dayscenes indeed seem to have been tweaked to match the Cundey transfer. I also highly reccomended the disc.
This is VERY different. Here, the entire transfer looks poor in MANY people's opinions. People who own the disc along with all 4 of the website reviews so far with a 3 out of 5 being the nest PQ rating it got. EVERYONE mentioned the same complaints. Dull, dated looking, flat, washed out, soft.
When there was an HD transfer on cable last year that looked MUCH better than this, when the same shots in HD in the docs on this disc look better, when we have conflicting reports about who exactly supervised the transfer and then a member here, John, chiming in with his take on a shot in the Criterion approved LD looking EXACTLY, (his words, not mine) like the SB dvd which means it's COMPLETELY different than the new BD. (Dracula's head is suddenly green where it was whitish blue before.) then yes, I think this is different.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Fair enough, Dave. Like I said, I wasn't trying to confrontational, I was just curious.

Looking at the screen caps, there is a bigger difference between the two 'versions' of Dracula (whether it's right or wrong) than the two Halloweens.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Thanks, Travis.

( I must confess, as Ron knows, being on Daddy Day care with a newborn all day and getting NO sleep, (haven't slept at ALL in 2 days makes me kinda zany. I am on fumes now...)

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

So to sum things up we now have 2 valid flavors of Bram Stokers Dracula:

1. The new "approved" revised version on Bluray and DVD

2. The original "approved" version on Criterion LD which is almost identical to the SB DVD most of us already have....

take your pick....I think I like the original burned-in subs with the gorgeous
colors that were once approved by the director...that's just me though

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

What is the source of this information regarding Coppola's "supervision" of the transfer? It certainly doesn't say so anywhere in the credits of the Criterion LD. (I still have my copy.)

In any case, to return to a point that RAH made several pages ago, the creative decisions made to produce an acceptable video version of a film in a low-resolution analog format created with 15-year-old technology cannot come close to supplying an adequate frame of reference for a hi-def version produced today. That point keeps getting lost in all the harping on prior video versions.

M.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Michael, apparently there was a pretty big sticker on the shrinkwrap of the LD, (that some people still HAVE!) with the info. and a mockup of Coppolla's sig. I believe.

I just did a quick google search. Found this.


"Criterion Collection Triple Laserdisc Set of Coppola's Popular Gothic Thriller

Deluxe Director-Approved Edition * Exclusive New Digital-to-Tape Transfer by Maria Palazzola * Excellent Picture Sound Mastering * Definitive Digital Surround Transferred Directly from Dolby Six-track

Color * Widescreen * 3 Discs * 127 Minutes * Full-Featured CAV Format * DSS

Extensive Supplementary Section Includes:

Exclusive Audio Commentary by Francis Ford Coppola, Roman Coppola, and Greg Cannom * Interactive "Hands-on" Editing Workshop * Isolated Music and Effects Track Option * Production and Behind-the-Scenes Photos * Production Stories * Original Storyboards * Special Effects Analysis * Costume Design Analysis * Making-of Featurette * Original Theatrical Trailer

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Don't own any high def formats at the moment, besides my satellite. I did see this movie on HD through satellite and thought it looked great. These shots disappoint me.

Also, FYI, I reviewed the Criterion LD years back and included some screen shots from the actual LD if any of the shots help for comparison. You can click on the shot to get a larger version.

http://www.horrordvds.com/modules.ph...article&id=224

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Another bad review has popped up.


http://www.fulvuedrive-in.com/review...ay+++DVD-Video)


Even the SOUND gets hammered.

It ain't us, folks. That's 5 for 5 bad. Not exactly the "slamdunk" reception zoetrope or Sony would expect us to believe exists.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Thanks, Dave! I used one of your LD screenshots to compare with!


Ok. I went upstairs and took better more balanced, less blown out screenshots.

The Bd of the vamp girl closeup...






The SB dvd






and the screenshot from the Coppolla approved LD transfer...



now which, the BD or the SB dvd more closely resembles the Laserdisc screenshot? And the Laserdisc transfer was approved by Coppolla.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

All this has made me think on Brams Drac as a film. I remember when I first saw the film, while it was strikingly beautiful, it was also depressing. I believe that may be the thinking with the new transfer. A more drab and dialed down color scheme with overwhelming blacks and grays takes your focus to the story more than the scenery and opticals,costumes,makeup,etc,etc,..Let's face it, you cant be depressed with a bunch of spunky colors on screen. The world of this movie is to look dead and that may be FFC's revisionist thinking here. I don't know.I do think we've entered a bad area when any director who decides the film should look different goes and says "this is my original intent" I mean,come on. I don't believe for one minute this is what he intended back in 1993. After years of looking on the film and seeing what can be done he decided to make alterrations and that's fine.Just don't keep feeding us the "this was my original intent" line. Enough is enough.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

fully agreed.
well said. I have no problem either. Just don't try to say that "all previous home video releases were NOT what he intended" when some people shelled out $100 for the Criterion LD set and part of the appeal was because the transfer was approved by Coppolla.


From BD.com
* The masters used for the Superbit DVD release were not approved by Mr. Coppola, while the Blu-ray masters were
* The color correction on the DVD was not done by direction of Mr. Coppola
* For the latest master, a representative from Zoetrope was charged with checking the color correction to match the wishes of Mr. Coppola
* The Blu-ray release was not accomplished quickly; it was carefully planned with full cooperation of Zoetrope

So when you sit down to watch this Blu-ray on Tuesday, remember that you are watching the absolute best video release of 'Bram Stoker's Dracula' ever created, and that it is exactly as the director intended. Any comparisons to previous video releases are invalid, as this release was approved by Mr. Coppola and his team at Zoetrope.


Previous release comparisons are invalid now. Even that $100 LD with his sig. on it.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

John,

I know that you and I have gone over this again and again about the Bond films. But I have to say it again. GoldenEye UE was prepared from a print that was designed to be used for a pan and scan transfer. Thats why all the titles are pushed toward the center of the frame at the start of the movie. It has also been zoomed in slightly to improve image detail on small TVs and less than perfect broadcasts.

Does this mean that the Goldeneye transfer is bad? I don't know. I suspect that 98% of people who watch it won't know the difference, and if this had been the version that had been released on video all along the other 2% wouldn't know the difference either.

Doug

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

A note regarding transfers and final "approved" software from a decade ago...

One of the points that I used to find most frustrating, and my admiration of people like Maria Palazzola, Lou Levinson and others so high, was that decisions were made using what we would now (and I did at that time) consider tiny monitors. High quality to be sure, but tiny.

I always found it extremely difficult and uncomfortable to work in that manner.

The other is that we had fewer controls, and few people actually knew how to use them. This meant that an attempt to try to match a desired film-based image might well end up with an acceptance of something close, even after hours of tweaking. Today, with the help of a top colorist, you can match anything.

And then one has the monitor and equipment setup. Produce a color corrected master on one setup, send it to another facility, and one has the possibility of having a monitor miscalibrated. This happened to me on The Grifters, while doing color and densities for the original HBO video release. The final product was not as approved.

Today, as with my more recent projects, one is working with a large, comfortable image, be it in HD or 2k, and proper decisions can easily be made. This simply wasn't true a dozen years ago, except for a small group of video professionals.

Which means that we now add one more caveat to the list. While a laserdisc may have a huge "Approved" sticker on it, and the intent of all involved were of the highest level, one was still making decisions based upon a tiny image.

The bottom line is that none of this, inclusive of the entire production strategy of a disc is as simple as it may seem.

RAH

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

...and Dave, really, I don't know where the truth in this lies.

There has been much effort made by people involved in the
project to contact me and present me with facts from their end.
Robert Harris, a respected authority on this subject, has also
submitted opinions that support this new transfer.

On the other hand, I wouldn't put it past a studio to deny that
there were mistakes in their work when it came to authoring.

So far we have been presented with facts that seem to support
both sides of the equation. Neither of us can push these arguments
any further. Really, I think it's up to we the consumers whether
we want to purchase this title based on the evidence that has been
posted.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Can I get an AMEN?

Okay...I haven't seen the BD of BSD. At this point, I can only hope that it's more a matter of personal interpretation than a profound lack of quality and judgement.

It's just so damn seldom that a single line from a single post, can move me nearly to the point of dancing and singing. I had to say something.

Perhaps it's a year and a half of pent-up frustration from reading "reviews" by "reviewers", that yammer incessantly about the grain...the GRAIN!, and other matters about which they seem to have little or no knowledge.

I have a strong urge to use RAH's line as my signature...with all due credit for the quotation, of course.

That's all. Sorry I blew up. Time for coffee.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

The sticker says "Director Approved", Dave. It does not say "Transfer Supervised by Director". Nor does the quotation you dug up through Google. (Criterion still uses the exact same format for the stickers on their "director approved" DVD editions.) I never disputed that Coppola "approved" the Criterion LD. What I questioned was your inference -- unwarranted and unsupported, as it now appears -- that this means he must have supervised the transfer.

In fact, for most of Criterion's LD transfers in the 90s, the supervision was provided by their in-house person mentioned by RAH above -- Maria Palazzola.

This is how many internet myths are born. From an established fact -- e.g., Coppola approved the LD package, including supplements, published by Criterion in 1993, using then state-of-the-art (but now vastly superseded) technology -- someone infers an incorrect factoid like "Coppola supervised the transfer". The factoid then gets repeated over and over until everyone thinks it must be true.

To your credit, though, I see you've gone back to the "director approved" phrasing in your most recent posts.

But all of this is a sideshow. You keep going on about the laserdisc as if it were a legitimate source for comparison. It isn't, for reasons that have been explained enough times that I'm not going to repeat them. (And RAH has added some additional technical information just above that I find fascinating.)

Let me put it this way. When I was checking the LD credits last night, I also watched some of the film on a 72" screen. The player was McIntosh's LD player, which is based on a Pioneer Elite 97 and is one of the finest ever made. It's a CAV LD, and it looked great for a laserdisc. But all I could think was, how could anyone possibly use this flat, washed-out, blurry image as a reference point for anything produced with today's hi-def technology? You might as well be talking about a kinescope.

I haven't seen the Blu-ray disc, and I have no idea whether it's a botch, a triumph or something in between. But the Criterion LD isn't going to answer the question.

M.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

In regard to Mr. Reuben's last comment, I find laserdiscs literally unwatchable on screening room setup. Although I have hundreds of films on laser, not yet on DVD, I would never think of attempting to view one on a large screen.

With all of the technologies that went into their creation, they look like noisy mush.

What a laserdisc is NOT, is any sort of arbitor toward what something should look like.

RAH

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

Again, some excellent points being made here from RAH and Michael. It's more like an apples to oranges comparison because the formats and technical processes are quite different between what was used then and the technical advances present today.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I agree that no one would use a laserdisc as an overall reference for how a film should look these days, but I would think it would be useful for making color comparisons, especially with a comparison such as that in post #79. Drac's hair is either green or it isn't, and it wouldn't matter if it was mushy green.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I'm not sure that laserdisc is even a good comparison for color giving the fact that video on laserdisc is video stored in the composite domain. Laserdisc is a composite video format: the luminance (black and white) and chrominance (color) information are transmitted in one signal and it is the responsibility of the receiver to separate them. While good comb filters can do so adequately, these two signals cannot be completely separated.

This means that the color can be wildly inaccurate.
Doug

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

ok, guys. I hope you all enjoy the disc.

Re: Does Bram Stoker's Dracula BRD have video issues?

I have trouble believing that a comb filter would make color changes as radical as those shown in post #79. It was always my understanding that the quality of the comb filter made the biggest difference in the amount of video noise, not color accuracy.