HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

The divimax transfer and the BD still has blues in like 80% of the night scenes.
They obviously used blue gels on the lights but in some scenes it registered alot better than on others. When Cundey tweaked the 99' dvd, it really looks like he pumped it up even more.anyone have an old VHS? Pop in the scene with the door and we'll get an idea. I really doubt that AB deliberately drained the blues from just a few shots. Makes no sense why they would waste the time bothering.

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

Michael,

My comment was neither a cheap shot, nor a thread cap. You wrote in your review, and I quote: "The mono soundtrack is included for nostalgic purposes, but after you listen to the 5.1 remaster, it’s hard to go back to the dirty mono track."

First off, how is it "dirty"? I have the DiviMax DVD, and the mono track doesn't sound "dirty" to me. As David Mack astutely points out, many folks were displeased with the 5.1 remix because all sorts of new sound effects were added, and many of them sound out of place compared to the original mono mix.

As for your "mono pan and scan VHS tape" quip, what the heck does that have to do with anything? As far as I can tell, this forum has never been solely about "new technologies" as you assert- it's the Hometheaterforum, it's about replicating the ideal theatrical experience as best as possible at home. HALLOWEEN was a mono movie that was shot in anamorphic Panavision- for the purest, the best way to view it at home would be a widescreen HD transfer with a nice representation of the original mono soundtrack.

Many folks here were NOT happy with the 5.1 remix of HALLOWEEN, just as they were not happy with similar remixes of other classic mono films like JAWS. Your flippant comment re: the "dirty mono track" of HALLOWEEN suggests to me that you just don't get this, and your follow-up comments to me re: "new technologies"- as if the technology itself was the be-all/end-all reason for any of us being into home theater- merely helps confirm it for me. And this is why it's hard for me to take your casual brushing off of the color timing issue seriously, as well.

These are not "cheap shots" nor a "thread cap", they are simply legitimate reactions to what you yourself have written in your review and the follow-ups.

Vincent

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

You can see less of a difference in the scene with the girls walking, which is about where I saw until. The difference is much more apparent in later scenes.

Looks like that 99 version is still the one to have(I think I actually paid $10 for it back in the day with coupons)

And some of the digital mono tracks are just wonderful.

I recently saw Scarface on cable w/ the new effects and actually grimaced from the way it sounded. They stood out so much and were completely out of place.

I used to watch those soundtracks in 2.0, but hae learned to appreciate the mono tracks.

IMHO Original mono should be available on EVERY disc where it was the original soundtrack.

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

Guys, let's keep the discussion in this thread focus on Halloween while discussing any possible issues with Bram Stoker's Dracula in its own thread. Thank you.




Crawdaddy

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

Yes, but many people like these "5.1 remixes", IF they´re professionally made and everything. I fully agree that the original Mono should be included, but it´s not that the lack of Mono-track makes the release suddenly "s*it" or equal to "pan&scan" or something. Let´s get serious here and drop the silly comments like that.

Original Mono-track AND the new 5.1 remix are both included in this release, so why we are even having this argument? Enjoy the Mono-track Vincent, but let the people enjoy the 5.1-remix also.

"Dirty Mono-track" was the bad choice of wording, I agree, but this is just one review out there, not the end of the world.

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

I can understand where Vincent is coming from here. I like the original tracks included, mono or not. Many times I find the 5.1 a bit distracting because of the inclusion of remixing and additional sound effects that weren't in the original mix (put in to "spice up" the 5.1). If the actual original mono is present, then I have no issues with the sound.

But, this brings up another "debate" about this practice. I'd like to know about HALLOWEEN... One of the things that really bugs me sometimes about the inclusion of original mono tracks is whether they are truly the "original" tracks at all. Many times, when a company says "original mono", it really is nothing more than a "downmix" of their tinkered-with 5.1 track. To me, this ISN'T the original mono, especially if new effects or sounds have been added.

Does the HALLOWEEN 5.1 mix have anything additional added (sound effects / ambient noise) to the track to make it more dynamic in the 5.1 separation and, better yet, does the "original mono" mix really mean it's the original mono or a downmix of the 5.1?

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

I'm very familiar with Halloween and to my ears, there's a few new sound effects in the 5.1 mix and the mono mix is the original mix.

*That's on the 1999 DVD. I'd hope that the Blu-Ray disc is the same though.

EDIT: I just checked the Divimax disc and it also has the original mono mix and the 5.1 mix with some new sound effects. And AB's laughably bad original DVD from 1998 only has the original mix.

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

Exactly... but there is something definitely strange about all of this. Everyone keeps saying that perhaps the DiviMax transfer came from the original negatives which didn't have the blue hues, but Don already said that even the negatives have them. Furthermore, what's really weird is that the LASERDISC has much bluer hues than the DiviMax release and the Laserdisc was released WAY before Cundey went in to jack up the blue colors. So if the blues (especially on the door) were available on the Laserdisc, which Cundey had nothing to do with, then why are they not available on the DiviMax release?

There's something seriously wrong about all of these transfers. Cundey's approved transfer aside, the Laserdisc is probably the most like the original "untampered with" negatives that were released in cinemas and the Laserdisc definitely has much bluer blues than the DiviMax release which definitely has been drained of all color IN SPECIFIC shots. I don't think that the DiviMax is anywhere close to what it originally looked like in theaters (not that I was even born when Halloween came out) because the blues were there on the laserdisc and then absent from the DiviMax.

I think they were intentionally removed, for what reason, I have no idea.

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

I'm 100% here with Vincent P and Don May.

And I believe the original tracks (stereo or mono) should always be presented on HD discs in lossless fashion alongside whatever remix studios wanna throw in there to please the crowds.

As it's been said, I'm all for technology, but it has nothing to do with butchering video aspect ratios, color timing or soundtracks. For the film/HT enthusiast, the use of technology has a very important place, and that is restore these things closest to their original presentation as possible.

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

Hi Folks -

Don and Vincent have a wealth of experience and knowledge, and I greatly appreciate their observations and comments. Having done color correction on my own projects (standard def video and now HD), I can tell you that it can be an elusive science/art. There are so many variables that affect something else when you change something. Also, it can be very time consuming, and you can really get lost in the balancing act and possibilities. Two fantastic examples of how this works can be found on the Platinum edition of Seven and the LOTR: Fellowship expanded edition DVDs.

Now I'm not familiar with film-to-video transfer and color correction (Don and Vincent correct me if I'm wrong), but unlike digital, the transfer from neg to digital is not bit-for-bit. Just because there are certain hues on the negative doesn't mean the raw transfer captures that (which is why you have to go thru the CC process after it's transferred). I imagine the process being a little bit like scanning slides or negatives of stills and then working on them in Photoshop. Many times, the scanned images bear little resemblance, tonally, to what's on the negative (due to the scanner's settings, limitations, etc.). David Lynch talks a bit about this on the Wild At Heart DVD. Not only did he have to go thru the grading process from negative to release prints, he had to do it all over again for the video release (and he did it yet again when they discovered there was no latitude in the dark sections of the film, so a whole new print was struck and re-transferred).

I think Don hit it on the head. It appears that for the HD version, there was an effort to move toward the Cundey app'd hues from '99, but perhaps because of other variables, or simply time, the effort fell short.

When the DiviMax transfer came out, I contacted Sandy King, John Carpenter's wife/producer, and she said the colors looked strange but that "John said he had nothing to do with it." In the absence of input by Carpenter, Cundey is the man. If they couldn't afford the guy to come back in, they could have spent the time to get it right, and as far as I know, the '99 version is his latest statement.

Re: the Criterion CAV laserdisc - while that was a revelation at the time (and also app'd by Cundey), the '99 DVD is still the benchmark IMHO as far as the overall look of the film on home video. Cundey had newer, better tools to work with, and you don't have the chroma noise inherent in the analog LD format.

Just my $.02.

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

With High Def Digest's review, chatter is starting to pick up about the color timing issue.

I'd REALLY like to get some sort of effort going to reach out to Anchor Bay and see if they are willing to address the issue. I know that Anchor Bay is aware of the controversy, so hopefully an effort can get underway to engage them on resolving the issue.

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

Good info Felix, thanks.

Now: Is there *any way* that e.g. Don May or Felix could actually contact Dean Cundey and ask about this issue in a polite and respectable way? Instead of having these on-going debates, we could at least try to have an proper "answer" from the DOP himself.. Is this possible in any way? I´m sure that Cundey is busy and probably not that easy to reach (?), but at least we could try. Since Don actually has seen the negatives etc, I´m sure he could ask the "right questions"..

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

"While it may not be colour timed to the tastes of purists who are referring to old quotes in magazines from Carpenter, old VHS copies and the horrible looking Cundey-supervised 1999 Anchor Bay DVD, this Halloween Blu-ray will knock everyone else's socks off."

A quote from our own reviewer, Michael Osadciw, on AVS. Just as an FYI, Don May Jr. was a co-founder of Elite Entertainment, who produced the very first SEs of many classic horror films, from the original Texas Chainsaw Massacre, to Evil Dead and Evil Dead 2, to the Nightmare On Elm Street series.

As someone who has worked in the industry for many years (in fact, I'd call him a pioneer in terms of giving genre material special edition treatment), and actually owns 35mm prints and negatives from Halloween, I'm not sure how he is basing his analysis on "old quotes in magazines, old VHS copies, and the horrible looking Cundey-supervised Anchor Bay DVD".

I have no issue with anyone here personally, but I don't know if someone should make derogatory statements about people who are familiar with the history of a film and it's presentation, when the person making the statements is not familiar with that history. I know I sound incredibly anal, but so be it. The fact that an Anchor Bay pr rep hinted to the webmaster of Horrorview that Don's comments were due to Synapse doing a couple of releases on HD-DVD and not because there was an actual problem with the transfer has me even more upset.

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

whoa whoa whoa!

Vince...I love original mono recordings, and in fact I prefer them to listening to the fake stereo tracks that Fox pumps out all of the time. It's clear I've been misunderstood about my "dirty mono" comment, yikes. I meant in comparison to the cleaner sound of the 5.1 track, when immediately switching over to mono, it's rougher sounding..."dirty" in a sense with all of the hiss, clicks, and compressed nature. That's all. If one wants to listen to mono, all the power to him/her. That's fine, I have no problem with that as I occasionally do that.

I'm not a Halloween "purist" by any means but I've always loved the film and it remains one of my favourite horror films - but in this case I prefer to listen to the 5.1 track. That's it. So I was just a little surprised you threw in the 5.1/mono comment at me when it had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I can understand your (and everyone else's) sensitivities to the original colour timing. Tinkering with films is common today, yet everyone still buys the latest incarnation of the original Star Wars (not so original anymore). I praised the image as it's presented on the Blu-ray disc. I rate the image as I see it. I am not knowledgeable enough to comment about the hows and whys the colour timing is the way it is and it would be unfair to expect this from every reviewer out there on every DVD/BD that they review. So giving a phenominal looking image a score of 1.5/5 is ludicrous. While you are correct the colours are off (I have all of the old discs that I've enjoyed up to this point), this is the best looking edition of the film I have - and I enjoy every second of it.

At least this thread is addressing the issue and showing that there are fans that care. Hopefully Anchor Bay/Starz is reading this and will make adjustments on any future release to make it a "true to the vision" definitive edition.

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

Nick


I'm just repeating what everyone else is saying here, that's all. (The "horrible looking" is my addition, because I really do think it looks dated). I'm done on this topic.

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

I see Bracke has quoted me in his review. I'm going to get murdered now in sme forums. Great...

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

Dave, they are already preparing the wood and the nails for you over at blu-ray.com, MUAHAHAHAHA.

Mike, I understand where you are coming from. The transfer in terms of detail and clarity is stunning, and I wasn't intending to jump all over you. This was my number one anticpated HD/BD title this year, so I'm WAAAAY more anal on it than I would be any other release.

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

I have also cancelled my pre-order with Amazon after having read a few alarmingly negative reviews on this release (a must have in my opinion). Michael, your review has given me a little hope, enough to at least rent it and give it a viewing. Might be the other reviewers where wrong, in which case, a purchase is in order.

On the other hand, if the colors are as far off as many are reporting, I will wait for the inevitable re-release sometime next year.

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

Man, if I could get ahold of Cundey, I would have posed those Qs the day the DiviMax was released.

Wouldn't it be funny if he would say, "looks good to me!"?

EDIT:

Ah, what the hell. Just emailed Sandy King. Let's see if she can get me in touch with Cundey. No promises, but let's see...

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

No worries... comments like the one from the PR person mentioned above roll right off my back. I'm used to it. Bottom line, they screwed up. I was talking to an ex-ABE employee today who actually said they screwed up (and he even said that, when he inquired about it, that they told him weeks ago that everything was "fixed"). They outright didn't tell him the truth. That's the way the "new" ABE/STARZ wants to roll, then so be it.

Anchor Bay doesn't have to like me... (just like many other companies... remember the JUST BEFORE DAWN comments that were made about me for a title I had nothing to do with?)... but the bottom line is they were telling people close to the company that everything was fixed when it wasn't. On the AVS Forum, there is a fellow there that said he emailed them a while back about the BD having the blue tint corrected and they told him everything was fixed when it clearly isn't. They can make veiled insults to me all they want... it doesn't change the fact that they are the ones who will be hurt by all this.

No company is perfect... even we (at Synapse) have made some mistakes once in a while. But, just be honest... if you didn't fix it right, then don't tell people you did and, when people complain, don't start taking shots at other companies because you have nothing to defend yourself with.

They knew YEARS ago that the DiviMax transfer wasn't correct... people complained. Anchor Bay even CALLED me to ask about fixing it. The reviews spoke for themselves. Seems to me they've had PLENTY of time to fix it. They didn't fix it correctly. Period. The End.

You can like the sharpness, detail and the way the new HALLOWEEN looks on BD. That's fine. I have no problem with people's opinions on what they like or dislike and I'm not going to insult someone for the way they feel about a film's presentation. But, based on previous editions that I've seen and the fact that I own original OUT OF THE CAMERA 35mm camera negative (not dupe neg, not print, not IP) for HALLOWEEN shows that the blue tint SHOULD be there in a much stronger way than presented on the current BD version.

HALLOWEEN is a classic of the genre. A film like this deserves to be properly restored each and every time it comes out on a new format. On VHS, LD, DVD, BD or watching on MONSTERS HD or your favorite cable station, you can certainly love it any way you see fit. If you dig it, that's fine. The way it looks, the way it sounds, in whatever format you decide to watch it in... But, the BD isn't necessarily the way the filmmakers intended it to look and, as a person who does digital film transfers and has been working in the film industry for almost 15 years, I personally feel that all transfers need to be signed off on by one of the filmmakers close to the project (whether it's the DP, the director, etc.). Almost every one of our transfers has been looked at by the filmmakers, or personally supervised at OUR expense by the filmmakers BEFORE it goes to DVD... that's the way WE roll. It's a courtesy and a respect that we have for the films we release and the filmmakers that spill blood, sweat and tears over their life's work. Perhaps larger companies don't see that as a viable expense, but we do and, in many of our fans' minds, that what they appreciate the most about us. We just try to do it the right way, every time, so that these sort of situations don't continue to pop up.

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

It honestly looks like they did tweak the dayscenes as they do look much closer to the Cundey THX dvd.
Most of the divmax at nite DID have blues. The scene where the shape is watching Annie through the kitchen window, all 3 look the same. Nice and blue. It really just is particular scenes/shots where the divimax, (and now the BD) look greyish-white and not deep blue, like the kitchen scene.

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

Which isn't enough for me not to buy this release. I can understand why others would have a major problem with this release, but the problems with this presentation noted in this thread are not enough to deter me from purchasing this BRD. I love this film and I intend to have it on one of the two best home video formats available to me.





Crawdaddy

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

Great post Don.

Unfortunately, the % of people who are knowledgeable about such things is miniscule. The average guy who buys this out in the world isnt gonna know the difference.

They arent going to know about how Stone color corrected the Pioneer LD of Platoon to be closer to his vision or that Celestials restored/remastered Intimate Confessions of A Chinese Courtesan is cut and so on.

So to a business is it worth the time and effort to satifsy a tiny part of the general public?



I agree with you, just saying......

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

Sandy just responded and gave me Cundey's contact info. An email of Qs has been shot out into the ether. Cross fingers...

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

You are absolutely, positively correct. Most larger companies also consider their audiences in this way. They care more about how many pieces they can move, for the cheapest amount of money possible to the masses. For us, satisfying a small group, as you say, is our utmost priority... mainly because our company caters to a VERY small group of people (unlike a multi-million dollar company like Anchor Bay that goes for the mainstream crowd for the most part).

As an independent company which started as just two fans throwing their life savings into preserving these types of films, we cater to a very small, niche, "collector" crowd and to "genre" fans. Synapse Films looks at every release as a labor of love... we love these films, so we just want to treat them with the right amount of respect, even if many of our disc buyers have no idea how much time and effort we put into them. We do our best to make sure our releases are the best they can be. So, if we have that extra blue tint in LEMORA (THAT blue was at least approved and supervised by the director), the few extra seconds of footage in CASTLE OF BLOOD (a complete revelation and much gratitude to us from the late director's family, by the way), or the extra 10 minutes of footage in something like STREET TRASH (also completely supervised by the producer and, as a courtesy, the completed transfer was shown to the director before we went to authoring), that wasn't on home video in the US before... at least WE know it's there.

We know, when we wake up and go to work in the morning that we are doing the best darn DVDs we can and treating the filmmakers with the respect and attention they deserve. And, surprisingly, many people do write us letters, email and call us and speak to us at shows and appreciate what we do... that's all that matters to us, really.

Whether a fan of Synapse, or someone who stumbles across one of our releases for the first time, we just want our fans to be happy... and for us to PERSONALLY know that we didn't consciously short-change our fans in any way, and that we did the best we could no matter what, is what keeps us going every day.

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

Keep up the good work (FYI, I do have a few Synapse releases)

"Sandy just responded and gave me Cundey's contact info. An email of Qs has been shot out into the ether. Cross fingers..."

Thanks for the effort. Let us know what you find out.

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

fully agreed. It still looks jawdropping and the vast majority of the film looks close. It seems thay DID do something to the dayscenes to better match the THX transfer. It's just SOME scenes at nite where Cundey very well might have really OVERPUMPED the blues in some shots where the blue didn't register well on the prints.

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

Great posts Don,

to get access to such thoughtfull and informed comments is the marvel of these foruns.

Can you please answer just a little off-topic question.

It's great to hear about the lenghs you guys at Synapse go to pursue the best video transfer. Considering your future HD releases (hopefully BD), would that also go on the direction of including un-altered original mixes in full lossless fashion?

Thanks again for your inputs ; )

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

Michael,

Not the same thing in this case. The latest Star Wars DVD is fully approved by George Lucas. The latest BD Halloween is not approved by Cundey nor Carpenter. I don't want some "unapproved" individual(s) arbitrarily tinking with a film's color timing that I'm going to buy/watch.

With that being said, I still might spring for this - likely to rent it. While I acknowlege the color timing being incorrect - it is what it is - I'd still like to see this in high definition at 80% correct colors (or whatever it is). But, I will still hang onto my THX DVD.

Re: HTF Blu-ray Review: Halloween (1978)

Not everyone, such as....me.