**Official HTF HD Formats Ind./Retailer/Studio Support Thread-*SEE POST 3176, p. 106*

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Let me get this straight about what the article believes Warner's line of thinking to be.
Boy, former Enron accountants are everywhere.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Bill is consistent with his mission for advancing HD media even in his position against Toshiba. How? If one assumes that the format war is bad for HD media adoption (as most industry experts believe), then Toshiba's selling hardware below-cost might offer a short-term advantage for individual consumers who take advantage of the deal, but it offers a long-term disadvantage for HD and consumers as a whole by keeping the format war going longer and longer.

I'm a consumer and I like affordable hardware. I also like the idea that manufacturers get to recoup their investment in R&D for new products over the first few years of a format's life-cycle... it encourages better products and more manufacturers to get in the game. That's good for HD and consumers too. That's not possible with Toshiba's pricing model.

There are many ways to look at "facts" like the case of Toshiba's below-cost sale, and there's no absolute right or wrong way to interpret the facts. Bill's point of view, while strongly opinionated, is still reasonable. To blindly praise the availability of low-cost hardware as a "win" for HD media, without considering its negative affects on the larger manufacturing industry, would certainly seem no more reasonable.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

But it is okay that 90% of Blu-ray players were sold under cost (PS3)?

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Makes sense. But I've never been comfortable with the unqualified, unequivocal way in which both you in these pages and Bill at his site make that penultimate statement. If it's purportedly difficult to assert--as you did a few posts back--that my A Few Good Men BD wouldn't cost $9.99 if there was no format competish, then it's an even more vexed assertion to claim that Tosh must be losing money on HD DVD and that their hardware pricing "model" is untenable.

"All of this speculation that we're losing money is just speculation." --Jodi Sally, VP of marketing at Toshiba America Consumer Products

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/the-state...dvd-330684.php

It's this incessant batting back of data others mention as not meaning anything/not meaning what they say, and then your simultaneously making (partisan) assertions supported with similarly assailable data while claiming the logic/reason high ground that's maddening.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Isn't Businessweek one of those publications that has proclaimed BR the winner all along? There's no real new information in the article, with the possible exception of a rumored sub $300 BR player (I wonder what features that would have).

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Well if it's a new model it's required to support Profile 1.1, however I suspect that it will be an older model looking to be discontinued in favor of a new 1.1 model.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

If that's true, then the article really does say nothing new at all. It's just more "it's true because we keep saying it" stuff.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Pretty soon we'll have to change the title of this thread to include the words "Bill Hunt" in it somewhere. . .

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I don't see where Bill Hunt uses any facts to back up his assertion. He sees the world through blue colored glasses. If Toshiba sells hd-dvd players for $99 that's desperation. If blu-ray has to give away discs to pump up sales, that's okay. Also during his paramount rant, he was throwing the anti-trust word around when it was very clear this has nothing to do with anti-trust. I also did not apreciate the cheap shot he took at those of us who bought them.

I would also question the research and development costs. Hd-dvd has been pushed by Toshiba and bluray by Sony. These are the companies that are bearing the cost. Likely Toshiba's costs are lower since hd-dvd is an extension of SD while blu-ray is very different from SD.

As to Warner, I do think they will remain neutral. I don't see a huge amount of
hd-dvd players or bluray players being sold. It is also very clear that the vast majority of PS3s are not being used for hd-dvd players. If they are then the bluray sales are embarassingly bad. If there are 4.4 million bluray players out there(including PS3) and Spiderman 3 can sell around 200,000 - 300,000 copies that means only around 7% of bluray owners bought it. While around
25% of hd-dvd owners bought Transformers. And again I do not believe that Disney is the holy grail in hd. These seem to be the reasons that the article suggests sony has an advantage. I don't see them as an advantage. Of course, warner probably has an advantage of seeing hard numbers that we don't have access to. Of the public info, I don't see any advantage to warner being exclusive.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

David, let me ask you a question. But first I would like for both of us to agree that absolutely no one knows definitively how this format war is going to play out. The "experts" so far have a dismal record in that regard.

Anyway, if you were in Bill's position writing a daily column and viewed many Blu-ray and HD-DVD titles and agreed with most, if not all reviewers, that there's not a dimes worth of difference PQ and AQ wise between the two formats, concerning the Walmart A2 $99 sale, what would YOU have written in the column?

Please... any format neutral readers out there, what would you have written???

We all know what Bill wrote and it wasn't kind to say the least...."firesale," indeed.

I must admit that I take no interest in any problems manufacturers may have in selling their product...business models are otherwise. I have no idea what it costs manufacturers to market a HD player nor do I really care. They have their problems and I have mine. I'm a consumer and as such my concerns revolve around whether I can afford this player or that receiver in our budget and whether the equipment has gotten good reviews. I buy what I can afford.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I agree here.

I seriously do not think Warner will be "choosing" a format for several months at the earliest. I think that as the war drags on, there will probably be greater pressure from retail placed on WHV to select a side. I am sure it creates confusion for them to stock two versions of the same HD titles. I also do not see why WHV would care what Universal, Fox, Paramount or Disney sells. Warner is looking at what/how their own titles sell and their own bottom line. I think that when they do decide that they'll likely look at many variables such as production costs, hardware sales, market penetration and several other tangibles. All of the studios on both sides who have chosen sides have done so for their own interests, and I am sure WHV will do the same in the end when/if that time comes.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Yeah, barring some sort of incentive package (or pressure from Toshiba, a major stockholder IIRC), I really don't see why Warner would abandon neutrality. It doesn't seem likely to be more costly to release on both formats than on one. Maybe BD finally getting their internet/interactivity crap together changes this somewhat, though.

Granted, I thought the same thing about Paramount.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I read in the latst CE Pro that Microsoft and Toshiba are working together to build an Xbox with a built in HD-DVD drive and have the xbox be a home entertainment server. Maybe the PS3 process of getting Blu-ray drives out in the market was not a bad strategy.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I have rented many Blu-ray discs and never had an issue with them. While the superior coating may cost more to produce, as a consumer, I rather have the better coating on the disk than internet connections. How is the HD-DVD coating holding up?

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Covered that dozens of times already... in laborious detail. Do a search to see exactly how I feel the below-cost PS3 affects or doesn't affect competition with sold-for-profit stand-alone BD hardware. Even more simply, notice how manufactures are still selling for-profit BD hardware along side the PS3, despite the PS3's below-cost sales model, so it obviously isn't a problem in the eyes of Denon, Samsung, Panasonic and Pioneer (ie, the quick summary is that because the PS3 is a "gaming console", you will have some buyers savvy enough to buy it as an affordable BD player, but most "watch a movie" consumers still like a regular-style player that doesn't look like a egg-shaped space ship).



Well you've answered your own question and explained your outlook on the matter.

You really wouldn't care even if those decisions helped stop the adoption of HD media and pushed high-def software to a limited niche market without widescale support?

BTW, I don't really believe you "don't care"... not entirely... because you're participating in this thread and are a member of HTF.

For me, I've always taken a "visionary" approach to home-video... even when it meant spending more money, boycotting product based on priciple (like non-anamorphic DVDs), or starting conumser-campaigns to help change an industry leader's policy about something: like when I organized the email campaign that got Artisan to release T2 as a 16x9 anamorphic dual-layer DVD instead of the 4x3 letterboxed "flipper" that they had planned to release. It worked by the way, and Arisan... then Live Entertainment, released a new 16x9 transfer on the world's first "reverse spiral dual layer" DVD that allowed continuous play over two layers. Image was also going to release Dances with Wolves in 4x3 lbx to recycle the laserdisc master. Called them up and changed their minds too. I bought a 16x9 progressive-scan TV in 1996 before DVD was even released, for twice the cost of a regular 4x3 interlaced TV. Why? Because I care about supporting the advance of technology in home-theater and, in turn, getting the best picture I can (within the boundaries of my budget... of course).

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Agreed. I've heard some members play down the hard coating because it was necessary in response to BD's inherently easier-to-damage pit structure. But since the end result is a disc that's more robust than any DVD or HD DVD, it's a win for the consumer. IMO, HD DVD should add the hard-coat just to make it scratch-proof as well, even if it's not absolutely needed to protect the pit structure.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

So far I've had 5 blu-ray rentals from Netflix that were scratched to the point they wouldn't play. In fact the last one the player popped the disc out saying it couldn't read it.

I have yet to have an HD DVD rental that my A1 couldn't read.

Doug

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I've rented over 70 HD movies from Netflix and every single one of them played just fine. It appears the coating is holding up just fine. Of course the coating has nothing to do with the internet connection so you would think as a consumer you would want both. I'm not a big fan of the built in HD drive since I think Microsoft's original concept of having two drives that split the work load is a superior model but perhaps they think it will cut down on over all costs.

FYI: the Xbox360 already is a very good entertainment server especially when you factor in the vastly superior xbox live into the equation.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

With the special coating, Blu-ray discs are reasonably as robust as the HD DVD discs. Originally, they figured they needed a caddy to hold BD, then a stern coating, but the current layer solution seems to work fine.

Note that the "BD-rot" problems that were reported on a few individual titles, in March this year, although "looking" very nasty, almost certainly weren't rot at all, at least not inherent to the format, but individual problems with those specific batches.

To be quite sure about the quality of both products in the long term and their storage life, we will have to wait and see, I figure.

This layer discussion is more a topic of the "format comparison" thread, BTW.


Cees

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I have a simple question for all including myself. When one format eventually wins how upset will you be that the other one failed?

My 2 answers.
If BR loses I have a PS3 which is a powerful gaming platform to still use so only loss is investment in the movies(which will still work)

If HD loses then both my A1 and 360 drive will become obsolete and possibly no longer supported by the manufacturer which means once they stop working I will have door stops. But again until they stop working I have some great titles to watch.

Those are my two answers I know some have stand alone BR players so answers will obviously differ from mine.

Later everyone
Brian

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Since, I use my both format players to play only HDM, I expect to be able to play these discs for a very long time after this war has ended. No different than prior format investments like LD or video tape.






Crawdaddy

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

I'm not so certain one format winning is inevitable.

Couldn't this also be phrased:

If HD loses I have an HD-A1 which is a great upconverting DVD player to still use so only loss is investment in the movies(which will still work)

If BD loses then my PS3 will become obsolete and possibly no longer supported by the manufacturer which means once they stop working I will have a door stop. But again until it stops working I have some great titles to watch.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Neither format is going to win this "war" because there will be too many pissed off consumers against the studios and hardware manufacturers if one does win. For one format to win requires the other to lose and that will leave a lot of bad feelings and really hurt HDM acceptance. It is one thing to lose but another to have it shoved in your face by having to buy the other player to continue getting movies. Some studios won't be all that happy either although that is probably a simple exective board shakeup.

The only way to get to one format is to screw both sides and come up with a 3rd format in a few years that everyone agrees to support and is superior to either existing format. More storage, more bandwidth, hard specs right from the start, better and more powerful IME capabilities and the cost will be $299 for a basic player at the start. This allows everyone to win. Those that would have lost and would have to buy a new player anyway get to buy a neutral format. Those that would have won and are stuck having to buy a new player anyway at least get to buy a superior format for a reasonable price. The studios save face by them all claiming they got the features they wanted although that does mean region coding is back. Sony and Toshiba can save face by showing they can work together to come up with a single format that is good for consumers.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

The other way to screw both formats is for all manufacturers in the Blu-Ray Group (other than Sony, of course) to get so pissed off with Sony continually undercutting them with the PS3 that they all decide to go format neutral and produce combo players. This could potentially have the SACD/DVD-Audio effect and clear the marketplace for the "next big thing".

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Your opinion that HDDVD should raise its costs so it can be more like BR isn't enough, David. Any engineer will tell you that you don't add extra-cost elements to something that are not needed (as you acknowledge), especially in an environment where manufacturing costs are very important. I've never seen a post anywhere that said the coating was a deciding factor in favoring a format.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Same no problem result with two A2s on Netflix rentals and I've been renting since June. In fact (knock on wood) I can't recall a single problem with any disc be it rental, HD-DVD or DVD commercial or burned DVD.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Well then, allow me... It is a big factor in my favoring Blu-ray Disc over HD DVD. All things being equal it would be the deciding factor for me. Why? I grow tired on having to return box sets such as Battlestar Galactica and Star Trek, as well as other Combo Format discs because of scratches.

The coating on Blu-ray Discs may be necessary for that format's function because the data is closer to the surface, but it doesn't change the fact that I have a much higher confidence in receiving an unscratched BD vs. an unscratched HD DVD because of those realities. The condition of my media is impotant to me for various reasons, resale being the most practical of them.

Now I wouldn't go as far as suggesting HD DVD adopt this coating to "keep up with the Jones'", all they really seem to need is better QC, but right now the coating and a better 1080p/24fps implementation on BD hardware is what keeps me leaning Blu-ray since the exclusive content available to each side is about even.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

It sounds like you have more of a problem with combos and packaging than the coating per se, Paul. But ok, I'll amend my statement to say I've seen no significant numbers of posts (one is not significant) complaining about the absence of the hard coating on HDDVDs from people making a choice (as opposed to confirmed BR advocates).

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

Could be a couple of reasons I guess.

1) HD fan renting the blu-ray and intentially destroying the disc. Not likely but you never know.
2) Too many people renting the Blu-rays
3) Disc needs to be cleaned.
4) Disc used in a video to show it still works. Just kidding.

If you keep having issues from Netflix, then I would switch to Blockbuster. All discs have been clean and woking fine.

Re: *** Official HTF HD Formats Industry/Retailer/Studio Support Thread

So a manufacture should add HD-DVD and it's costs to sell a player for even less profit? Don't think that will happen. Even the current LG dual format player had Blu-ray on the front of the unit. I had to look at it closely to see it as a dual format player.