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Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

#91
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8/12/08 at 2:30pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
This is neither a re-master nor an old transfer.

The tech staff at Disney has done everything in their power to make this very special, returning to the original 8 perf negative and earliest audio elements.

Sleeping Beauty portends to be a stunning Blu-ray set.
Hooray for Hollywood!

My SD is going too the chopping block.
(after the reviews come in ;-) )

Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
HD should be for EVERYONE!

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#92
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8/12/08 at 5:15pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

If they're going back to the original 8-perf elements, that means we could be looking at an Ultra-Resolution type restoration. Earliest audio elements means death to the "tubby" sound that plagued earlier releases.

I've been trying to fight off going Blu until I have a new receiver, but if this will include a DVD of the film as well... I may have to pick this up.

\"My opinion is that (a) anyone who actually works in a video store and does not understand letterboxing has given up on life, and (b) any customer who prefers to have the sides of a movie hacked off should not be licensed to operate a video player.\"-- Roger Ebert

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#93
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8/12/08 at 7:15pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
This is neither a re-master nor an old transfer.

The tech staff at Disney has done everything in their power to make this very special, returning to the original 8 perf negative and earliest audio elements.

Sleeping Beauty portends to be a stunning Blu-ray set.

Based on the actual clips I saw and heard at the BD-Live demo in DC in June, unless they screw something up between what they did to prepare the test disc and the production disc, Sleeping Beauty WILL be a stunning Blu-ray set.

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#94
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8/12/08 at 7:20pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
I've been trying to fight off going Blu until I have a new receiver, but if this will include a DVD of the film as well... I may have to pick this up.

Do you still buy movies? Any movies that are out in Blu? If so, why are you waiting/spending money on SD facsimilies that you'll be spending more $$ to replace as soon as you finally enjoy HD realism of your favorite films?

Don't worry about upgrading the receiver just yet... that BD player will send a nice core DD stream to your legacy receiver at 640 kbps and blow any DVD away (even without full lossless). In the meantime... you'll be building a 1080p library. Then when you finally get your new HDMI recevier, you'll enjoy your whole 1080p collection all over again... with lossless sound.

going HD/Blu now = win-win.
holding off *and* buying SD DVD = spend more later to replace those SDs you keep buying.

If you don't buy movies, then it doesn't matter. But at $20 a pop every five SD DVDs is $100 you could have put towards your BD player.
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#95
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8/12/08 at 8:57pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

"Tubby," meaning sounding like it was recorded in a bathtub?

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#96
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8/12/08 at 10:44pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Don't worry about upgrading the receiver just yet... that BD player will send a nice core DD stream to your legacy receiver at 640 kbps and blow any DVD away (even without full lossless). In the meantime... you'll be building a 1080p library. Then when you finally get your new HDMI recevier, you'll enjoy your whole 1080p collection all over again... with lossless sound.

Here here. And with DTS-HD MA, you´ll get the 1.5 Mbps "core" (=equal to "full bitrate" DTS-track). If you have proper HDTV (or projector etc), get the Blu-ray-player before the new HDMI 1.3-receiver. It´ll be worth it.

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*US PS3 (1080p) - Xbox 360 Elite (HDMI) - Nintendo Wii (Euro) - Sony PSP-2000 - Nintendo DSi
*HD DVD Toshiba XE1 (1080p) - Sony Bravia KDL-40W2000 (1080p) - Yamaha RX-V1800 (HDMI 1.3)

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#97
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8/13/08 at 6:06am
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
If they're going back to the original 8-perf elements, that means we could be looking at an Ultra-Resolution type restoration. Earliest audio elements means death to the "tubby" sound that plagued earlier releases.
I don't know what "Tubby" is supposed to mean, but I thought the 5.1 track on the laserdisc sounded great, like a vintage mag track. If going to the earliest audio elements means a modern remix and no repurposing of the original mix, I will be disappointed.

Regards,

Ken McAlinden
Livonia, MI USA

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#98
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8/14/08 at 2:24pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Do you still buy movies? Any movies that are out in Blu? If so, why are you waiting/spending money on SD facsimilies that you'll be spending more $$ to replace as soon as you finally enjoy HD realism of your favorite films?

Don't worry about upgrading the receiver just yet... that BD player will send a nice core DD stream to your legacy receiver at 640 kbps and blow any DVD away (even without full lossless). In the meantime... you'll be building a 1080p library. Then when you finally get your new HDMI recevier, you'll enjoy your whole 1080p collection all over again... with lossless sound.

going HD/Blu now = win-win.
holding off *and* buying SD DVD = spend more later to replace those SDs you keep buying.

If you don't buy movies, then it doesn't matter. But at $20 a pop every five SD DVDs is $100 you could have put towards your BD player.
I haven't been buying movies for awhile, apart from the odd crazy deal on HD DVDs (currently 2 for $10 for select Warner titles @Wal*Mart). That being said, my HD-A30 is occupying the sole optical port on my 10 year old Pioneer receiver, which is Dolby Digital only. It has two coax inputs, but good luck finding anything other than an SD player with coax outs these days (also, no analog 5.1, if that was going to be your next suggestion). My current plan is to get an HDMI receiver, then a PS3.

As for the "tubby sound" comment, I've owned every iteration of Sleeping Beauty since the original VHS release in 1986. As good as the current DVD sounds, going back to the original elements, if done properly, could be revelatory.

\"My opinion is that (a) anyone who actually works in a video store and does not understand letterboxing has given up on life, and (b) any customer who prefers to have the sides of a movie hacked off should not be licensed to operate a video player.\"-- Roger Ebert

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#99
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8/14/08 at 3:57pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
This is neither a re-master nor an old transfer.

The tech staff at Disney has done everything in their power to make this very special, returning to the original 8 perf negative and earliest audio elements.

Sleeping Beauty portends to be a stunning Blu-ray set.
Sounds fantastic and I can't wait. But is it still going through the Lowry process to look like Cinderella, Peter Pan, Lady and the Tramp etc.? I'll buy it regardless though, as soon as I know whether to get the Region A or B version.
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#100
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8/14/08 at 5:41pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_McAlinden
I don't know what "Tubby" is supposed to mean, but I thought the 5.1 track on the laserdisc sounded great, like a vintage mag track. If going to the earliest audio elements means a modern remix and no repurposing of the original mix, I will be disappointed.

Regards,
&
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Z.
But is it still going through the Lowry process to look like Cinderella, Peter Pan, Lady and the Tramp etc.?
Two things too think about, for sure.
That's why I posted I'd be getting rid of my SD DVD "after the reviews come in"! :-)

Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
HD should be for EVERYONE!

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#101
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8/14/08 at 7:04pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

What was wrong with Cinderalla?

Yes. Lowry has done the prep work for Sleeping Beauty. The result has no relationship to "film", but looks rather like the original hand-painted cel artwork projected on your screen. Different strokes (pun intended), and while I can appreciate some folks wanting to see grain and something that has the character of a film print, at least given the hand-painted artwork as the genesis for films of this type, the final result from Lowry is true to one perspective of the "art", if not the other.

The clips that I saw were immaculate. Stunning. Perfect. No fluctuating contrast, fading, gate weave, or imperfections of any kind. Literally, imagine the hand painted cel at 1080p and projected 24-frames-per-second in your living room. That's what you'll see. Personally, I can't wait.
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#102
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8/14/08 at 9:12pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
What was wrong with Cinderalla?

I agree. In fact, the HD clips from CINDERELLA that were buried in that game with ENCHANTED were among the clips that most blew me away. I think it will be a stunning Blu-ray.
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#103
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8/14/08 at 9:38pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Isn't this a bit of a contradiction though this new Sleeping Beauty that will no longer look like film and yet some are ok with it and rather excited and yet films like Patton get blasted for not looking film-like.

Seems like a double standard, no?
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#104
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8/14/08 at 9:47pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Isn't this a bit of a contradiction though this new Sleeping Beauty that will no longer look like film and yet some are ok with it and rather excited and yet films like Patton get blasted for not looking film-like.

Seems like a double standard, no?

No double standard. Dig deeper.

First, even RAH said that had Patton had the *right* grain removal technique applied (Lowry), no detail would have been lost and the result, while not "film like", would have at least been something worthy of the film (though he still would have preferred all the natural fine film grain in tact per the original film negatives).

Secondly, the original "art" of Patton was a film negative. Therefore, it can be argued that the look of the film negative is the source that the final product should resemble (which would have some grain, as all film negatives do, even large-format).

With Sleeping Beauty, it could be argued that the original "art" are the hand-painted cels, and that the film negatives are actually one-generation removed from the "source". There's no film grain in those painted cels.

I'm not suggesting that any of the above points of view are fact. They are points of view. And there are many more that would be quite different. However, the points of view are not in conflict, and thereby don't represent a "double standard".
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#105
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8/14/08 at 9:51pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
What was wrong with Cinderalla?
No one said there was anything wrong with it. I thought Cinderella in particular looked too "digitized" but having purchased the Platinum Editions from fairly early on I've come to terms with the fact that there won't be any releases faithful to the film (as in the physical medium). Anything is better than the smeared travesty that was The Little Mermaid however, I think the only one Lowry didn't work on. And I hope they re-do Snow White and Bambi when they get to those, because those had some smearing/non-optimal handling of grain as well.

In any case as mentioned I'm buying this anyway and your description of the preview isn't exactly helping with the waiting part. And I get giddy just thinking about all the other movies to come, particularly Pinocchio, which I for some reason managed to avoid on DVD and haven't seen since I was in the single-digit age range.
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#106
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8/14/08 at 9:53pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Don't understand the Dig Deeper comment David. Not trying to dig at all. Just my observations over how some pick and choose their battles.

It's my view that it is a bit of dbl standard.
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#107
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8/14/08 at 10:22pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

I find it a bit of a double standard too, and as mentioned I would love to have the grainy versions, but personally I justify it as a special case through the following:

1) It's animation. The effects are not going to be that devastating as there isn't as much inherent detail to lose. And as David mentioned, the process is basically from more or less solid colours (cels), to grainy film, and back to solid colours; compared to live-action where it's from reality with detailed skintones and textures, to the same with grain, and then generally to a more "smoothed" reality.

Of course the techniques employed need to be right, and there is absolutely no excuse for the kind of automatic DNR that starts to "eat away" the animation, that we've seen on DVD at times.

2) The "collectors" are getting more and more important but these are still children's films originally, and children don't want grain. "Original", "unmanipulated" and "art" means nothing.

3) There was never really any chance of getting anything but the Lowry-processed versions anyway, and no amount of complaining could ever possibly convince them to do otherwise.
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#108
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8/15/08 at 1:22am
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

What has to be emphasized is that grain on large format films is really very very fine and so I think that it hardly should be called a distraction anyway. Sureley not for Patton that has also been mentioned and probably not for Sleeping Beauty either, especially not in the viewing environments where children watch it.

But obviously these are moot points and given that Sleeping Beatuy is animation I think this will be one of the cases where most will be happy with a no-grain version, justified or not (IMO not).
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#109
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8/15/08 at 3:29am
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

In a five-year study recently published by a medical journal, it has been proven that parents allowing children under the age of seven to view films with grain leads to criminal behavior as an adult as well as an extreme aversion to pepper.

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#110
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8/15/08 at 4:51am
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Personally I heard that excessive grain leads to tooth decay.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#111
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8/15/08 at 4:59am
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

First the carbon footprint and now this - who said that talking about movies on silver disc can't be fun ?
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#112
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8/15/08 at 5:49am
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Don't understand the Dig Deeper comment David. Not trying to dig at all. Just my observations over how some pick and choose their battles.

I'm suggesting that rather than just look at the surface that one title gets criticized for grain removal and one doesn't, that you think about what makes these two films different from each other, specifically, what consistutes that "art" that you're trying to preserve.

hand-painted cels for animation are not the same thing as camera negatives for a live-shot motion picture. That's a difference that can affect what "art" you're preserving, which then affects whether or not it matters to keep the grain.
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#113
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8/15/08 at 8:04am
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
In a five-year study recently published by a medical journal, it has been proven that parents allowing children under the age of seven to view films with grain leads to criminal behavior as an adult as well as an extreme aversion to pepper.



Good one RAH.
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#114
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8/15/08 at 11:29am
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
In a five-year study recently published by a medical journal, it has been proven that parents allowing children under the age of seven to view films with grain leads to criminal behavior as an adult as well as an extreme aversion to pepper.
Can you get me a copy of that study so I can use in arguing for harsher sentences for youth criminals in Canada?

\"My opinion is that (a) anyone who actually works in a video store and does not understand letterboxing has given up on life, and (b) any customer who prefers to have the sides of a movie hacked off should not be licensed to operate a video player.\"-- Roger Ebert

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#115
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8/15/08 at 3:34pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
I'm suggesting that rather than just look at the surface that one title gets criticized for grain removal and one doesn't, that you think about what makes these two films different from each other, specifically, what consistutes that "art" that you're trying to preserve.

hand-painted cels for animation are not the same thing as camera negatives for a live-shot motion picture. That's a difference that can affect what "art" you're preserving, which then affects whether or not it matters to keep the grain.


I disagree with this point of view. The art was always intended to be photographed on film and it was designed with that in mind. Tests were done and colors and designs were made based on the format and film stocks to be used. The artwork was never intended for anything other than to be photographed.

Just like any other film, live action or not, it was created with the strengths and weaknesses of the motion picture camera in mind.

In addition as was stated before, this is a large format film and grain reduction should not be necessary.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#116
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8/15/08 at 4:13pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I disagree with this point of view. The art was always intended to be photographed on film and it was designed with that in mind. Tests were done and colors and designs were made based on the format and film stocks to be used. The artwork was never intended for anything other than to be photographed.

Just like any other film, live action or not, it was created with the strengths and weaknesses of the motion picture camera in mind.

In addition as was stated before, this is a large format film and grain reduction should not be necessary.

Doug
Well stated.
(reminds me of my "KB2" was not intended too be B&W argument)
On the other hand, I saw "Clone Wars" this morning and print damage & reel change markings really took me out of the SW fake world I was in; this from a 1st showing print. Man I wish it were as easy as: all film looks breathtakingly beautiful, all video looks breathtakingly beautiful, all digital looks breathtakingly beautiful...

Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
HD should be for EVERYONE!

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#117
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8/15/08 at 5:54pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

It's truly sad that there would be print damage on a film that opened TODAY. I'm taking my son to see Clone Wars tomorrow and the print better be pristine.

\"My opinion is that (a) anyone who actually works in a video store and does not understand letterboxing has given up on life, and (b) any customer who prefers to have the sides of a movie hacked off should not be licensed to operate a video player.\"-- Roger Ebert

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#118
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8/15/08 at 6:05pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed St. Clair
Well stated.
(reminds me of my "KB2" was not intended too be B&W argument)
On the other hand, I saw "Clone Wars" this morning and print damage & reel change markings really took me out of the SW fake world I was in; this from a 1st showing print. Man I wish it were as easy as: all film looks breathtakingly beautiful, all video looks breathtakingly beautiful, all digital looks breathtakingly beautiful...

Interesting. Damage on opening day sounds to me like sloppy lab work. I wonder who made the prints?

But of course as Mr. Harris has pointed out, not all release prints are of equil quality even from the best runs, and the best prints go to the most important markets.

Also reel change marks aren't going to go away anytime soon as there are still some theaters that don't use platter systems.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#119
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8/15/08 at 11:57pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Back on topic, I agree with Douglas's assessment of the situation. Why are they now changing the color to conform to how the human eye sees the original cels, when the cels were painted with the way a camera (and the Technicolor prints) would "see" them in mind? And what if the colors of the cels have faded or shifted over time?

STOP THE MADNESS! STOP THE BUTCHERING AND ABANDONMENT OF TV SHOWS ON DVD!

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#120
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8/16/08 at 3:47am
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewA
And what if the colors of the cels have faded or shifted over time?

I'm told that the cells have not shifted in color.

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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