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Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

#151
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8/19/08 at 7:11pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Yeah!
Both of you are on to my question of how is this new transfer for original film elements going to show the entire cell art. With no difinitive answer in sight (pi).
Should be interesting & one for the record books.

EDitEDbyED:
Are there any sources, books or programs, w/pics of the original cells?
I'm going to check the special features from the SD DVD of "SB".

Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
HD should be for EVERYONE!

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#152
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8/19/08 at 11:36pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed St. Clair
Yeah!
Both of you are on to my question of how is this new transfer for original film elements going to show the entire cell art. With no difinitive answer in sight (pi).
Should be interesting & one for the record books.

EDitEDbyED:
Are there any sources, books or programs, w/pics of the original cells?
I'm going to check the special features from the SD DVD of "SB".


The statement that the "whole cell would be seen for the first time" was probably hyperbole on the part of Disney. Either that or the marketing department simply has no idea what they are talking about.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#153
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8/19/08 at 11:49pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

It wouldn't be the first time for a marketing department.

I always find these discussions quite interesting. The history and technical specifics of the "traditionally" animated films is a weak spot in my cinema knowledge, so I always learn something.
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#154
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8/20/08 at 8:02pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
The statement that the "whole cell would be seen for the first time" was probably hyperbole on the part of Disney. Either that or the marketing department simply has no idea what they are talking about.

Actually what I said earlier was this:

Quote:
that's basically what the Disney reps at the BD Live event in DC (this past Monday, June 16) said... that the "original film/photography was 2.55:1" and that the new Blu-ray Disc will be the first time any consumer has had a chance to see the full, uncropped image... inlcuding consumers who saw the original theatrical projection. They were adamant that the 2.55:1 presentation for the Blu-ray was the "complete image" with additional left/right information extending beyond any previously seen framing, and that the 2.55:1 was *not* achieved by cropping any top/bottom as the mishap with the Ben-Hur edition that boasted OAR only to actually be an over-cropped print (I even mentioned that example to try to be sure they understood what I was trying to verify).

Now... I'm not vouching for the correctness of their assertion. Only that this was indeed what they had to say.

The Disney reps I spoke with were talking about the large-format film negative, not the "cells", in regards to the 2.55:1 aspect ratio.
Be an Original Aspect Ratio Advocate

Supporter of 1080p24 video and lossless 24 bit audio.
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#155
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8/20/08 at 8:25pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

It should also be noted that in the case of Ben-Hur, the overcropping was the result of Warner misunderstanding the hue and cry from the HT community about OAR and cropping a 35mm element to 2.76:1. If Disney is going back to original 8 perf elements (which has been confirmed by RAH), overcropping shouldn't be an issue.

\"My opinion is that (a) anyone who actually works in a video store and does not understand letterboxing has given up on life, and (b) any customer who prefers to have the sides of a movie hacked off should not be licensed to operate a video player.\"-- Roger Ebert

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#156
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8/21/08 at 8:15am
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
It should also be noted that in the case of Ben-Hur, the overcropping was the result of Warner misunderstanding the hue and cry from the HT community about OAR and cropping a 35mm element to 2.76:1. If Disney is going back to original 8 perf elements (which has been confirmed by RAH), overcropping shouldn't be an issue.

I am at a loss as to how 8 perf elements can yield an aspect ratio of 2.55 without top and bottom cropping - the whole frame would yield a 2.25 aspect ratio in its unsqueezed form. Either they go back to the original artwork and use previously unused areas of the cels or they have to crop the 8 perf negative.
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#157
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8/21/08 at 8:49am
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

TLA was a format that was "croppable."

The photographed image most likely simply runs out at the edges, and was cropped to create 2.35 for 35mm and 2.21 for 70.

The point is that there has always been a bit more information, and that is what is being exposed for the first time in this release on home video.

I have great faith that things are being handled correctly, and can confirm that there is no guessing going on with SB.

A Q & A with the archivist responsible for the work will go on line closer to the release date.

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#158
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8/21/08 at 9:44am
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

I look forward to the Q & A with the archivist. Thanks, RAH.

\"My opinion is that (a) anyone who actually works in a video store and does not understand letterboxing has given up on life, and (b) any customer who prefers to have the sides of a movie hacked off should not be licensed to operate a video player.\"-- Roger Ebert

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#159
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8/21/08 at 10:19am
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

So let me see if I understand this correctly:

The cels would be captured onto 8-perf Technirama film, with an aspect ratio of 2.35:1, but would likely have unfinished animation on the top and bottom, supposed to be cropped off to create a 2.55:1 aspect ratio intended for the old CinemaScope.

This cropped 2.55:1 film would then have its sides further cropped to create the 2.35:1 and 2.20:1 ratios for the new CinemaScope and 70mm respectively.

And it is this latter "double-cropped" image that has been on previous editions of Sleeping Beauty, and now we're getting the original 2.55:1 image scanned from the original 8-perf negative?
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#160
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8/21/08 at 1:54pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Yep, pretty much.

\"My opinion is that (a) anyone who actually works in a video store and does not understand letterboxing has given up on life, and (b) any customer who prefers to have the sides of a movie hacked off should not be licensed to operate a video player.\"-- Roger Ebert

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#161
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8/22/08 at 12:31pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
TLA was a format that was "croppable."

The photographed image most likely simply runs out at the edges, and was cropped to create 2.35 for 35mm and 2.21 for 70.

The point is that there has always been a bit more information, and that is what is being exposed for the first time in this release on home video.

I have great faith that things are being handled correctly, and can confirm that there is no guessing going on with SB.

A Q & A with the archivist responsible for the work will go on line closer to the release date.
There was an image of a Sleeping Beauty Cell that was posted on an HTF thread years ago that showed the amount of information that was missing in a frame on both the widescreen &/or pan & scan home versions.

I copied it at the time because it was informative, but sorry, I don't remember who posted it or what thread it came from.

Hopefully this will help determine, at least for this frame, how much of the information on the cell below will actually be on the Blu-ray disc.

Maybe the person who posted it will recognize it here .



Paul
My Blu-ray / HD DVD / DVD Collection
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#162
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8/22/08 at 8:09pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
This cropped 2.55:1 film would then have its sides further cropped to create the 2.35:1 and 2.20:1 ratios for the new CinemaScope and 70mm respectively.
New interpositives could also have been made to show additional image height from the TLA negative for the 2.35 and 2.20:1 releases.

Vern
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#163
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8/23/08 at 8:42am
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hillenbrand
There was an image of a Sleeping Beauty Cell that was posted on an HTF thread years ago that showed the amount of information that was missing in a frame on both the widescreen &/or pan & scan home versions.

I copied it at the time because it was informative, but sorry, I don't remember who posted it or what thread it came from.

Hopefully this will help determine, at least for this frame, how much of the information on the cell below will actually be on the Blu-ray disc.

Maybe the person who posted it will recognize it here .



Paul

That was Simon Caleb back on 9/19/2003 but his pictures are no longer found - http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...mmended-6.html
probably because they are almost five years old.

The complete frame you show is about 2.66:1. The letterboxed image within the frame is about 2.45:1. 2.66:1 was the original AR for the first CinemaScope film The Robe before the sound was put on the film.

Roland Lataille
Cinerama web site:
http://cineramahistory.com

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#164
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8/23/08 at 9:14am
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern Dias
New interpositives could also have been made to show additional image height from the TLA negative for the 2.35 and 2.20:1 releases.
But not if the animation on the top/bottom was unfinished.
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#165
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8/23/08 at 6:08pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

WoW
That's a GREAT cell!
Would LUV too see the entire film (I know that's NOT possible) w/the entire cells shown. I don't care that the art work isn't finished. That looks so COOL!!!

Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
HD should be for EVERYONE!

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#166
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8/24/08 at 10:19am
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed St. Clair
Would LUV too see the entire film (I know that's NOT possible) w/the entire cells shown. I don't care that the art work isn't finished. That looks so COOL!!!

I'd like to see a PiP of the pencil drawings sync'd up with the film. I believe the pencil drawings were regularly put to film in order to qc animation before going to ink & paint (e.g. multi-angle was used for some shorts on the Disney Treasures sets).
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#167
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8/24/08 at 12:43pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Yes, they were. These were known coloquially as Leica reels, as the animators would crowd around the Leica viewer to watch test footage, much the same way as directops and DPs watch dailies. At Disney, these viewing rooms were tiny closets located under the stairwells and referred to as sweatboxes.

\"My opinion is that (a) anyone who actually works in a video store and does not understand letterboxing has given up on life, and (b) any customer who prefers to have the sides of a movie hacked off should not be licensed to operate a video player.\"-- Roger Ebert

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#168
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8/27/08 at 6:45pm
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Here's that 'import' (SD) cover I mentioned vs. the BD...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hillenbrand
New 2-Disc Blu-ray plus a Bonus DVD



Paul
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spero D

Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
HD should be for EVERYONE!

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#169
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8/27/08 at 9:09pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

I would LOVE that import cover! It reminds me of these:

\"My opinion is that (a) anyone who actually works in a video store and does not understand letterboxing has given up on life, and (b) any customer who prefers to have the sides of a movie hacked off should not be licensed to operate a video player.\"-- Roger Ebert

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#170
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8/28/08 at 5:37pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
I would LOVE that import cover! It reminds me of these...
That's a COOL Aladdin.
Is that a teaser poster; sure doesn't LOOK like a cover?!?!?!
Although, it would make a GREAT one. :-)

EDitEDbyED:
I think the BD cover looks super commeicial, not in a good way; the weakest "SB" five inch disc cover I've seen.

Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
HD should be for EVERYONE!

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#171
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8/28/08 at 6:56pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Yep, it's a poster, but I think Disney would attract more collectors with this kind of artwork.

\"My opinion is that (a) anyone who actually works in a video store and does not understand letterboxing has given up on life, and (b) any customer who prefers to have the sides of a movie hacked off should not be licensed to operate a video player.\"-- Roger Ebert

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#172
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8/29/08 at 6:56am
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Taken from DVD Times - DVD News, Reviews and Features
IFA 2008: Blu-ray Disc Assc. Press Conference
Gordon Ho from Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment

Sleeping Beauty is already coming out this Autumn. "How many people have seen Sleeping Beauty? Whether on video, LaserDisc, DVD? I promise you've never seen Sleeping Beauty until you've seen it on Blu-ray High Def". Gordon talks about how the restoration was performed from the 2.35:1 nitrate negative, and mentions that the original audio stems were found in a vault in Disney's German office, meaning it was possible to remix the audio to 7.1.
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#173
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8/29/08 at 8:59am
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
I would LOVE that import cover! It reminds me of these:

You forgot...

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#174
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8/29/08 at 1:15pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyboy104
Taken from DVD Times - DVD News, Reviews and Features
IFA 2008: Blu-ray Disc Assc. Press Conference
Gordon Ho from Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment

Sleeping Beauty is already coming out this Autumn. "How many people have seen Sleeping Beauty? Whether on video, LaserDisc, DVD? I promise you've never seen Sleeping Beauty until you've seen it on Blu-ray High Def". Gordon talks about how the restoration was performed from the 2.35:1 nitrate negative, and mentions that the original audio stems were found in a vault in Disney's German office, meaning it was possible to remix the audio to 7.1.

I'm pretty sure the motion picture industry switched over to safety film around 1948. It seems highly unlikely that Sleeping Beauty would have been photographed on nitrate film stock.

Mr. Harris can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe that Kodak ever made a professional color film stock on a nitrate base.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#175
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8/29/08 at 3:03pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyboy104
Taken from DVD Times - DVD News, Reviews and Features
IFA 2008: Blu-ray Disc Assc. Press Conference
Gordon Ho from Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment
^^^
"Gordon shows us 1080p Sleeping Beauty. Like all of Disney's restorations, it's totally grainless, and it looks very saturated. So, not very filmic, but nevertheless very appealing."
[bold: mine]
Ouch!
"Not very filmic" for a film can't be good!

EDitEDbyED:
RAH calling out Ho: Home Video Battle Royal! ;-)
(wonder if RAH was calling him on the video or audio... or BOTH?!?!?! :-0 )

Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
HD should be for EVERYONE!

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#176
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8/29/08 at 5:42pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008


http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/protectedi...y.jpg_29082008

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Mackenzie
Gordon talks about how the restoration was performed from the 2.35:1 nitrate negative
A Link to the thread where Mr. Ho's statement from Berlin, Germany is translated: IFA 2008: Blu-ray Disc Assc. Press Conference



Gordon Ho needs to clarify!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
Mr. Ho is obviously speaking of a different Sleeping Beauty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
........A Q & A with the archivist responsible for the work will go on line closer to the release date.
If Mr. Ho doesn't clarify the above translation before the Q & A online, the archivist responsible will hopefully do the honors.

Edit on 8/30/08 taken from Post #186:
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Mackenzie
...........

Gordon actually said "2.55", not "2.35". That was my 4am typo, now corrected.


Paul
My Blu-ray / HD DVD / DVD Collection
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#177
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8/29/08 at 6:50pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

It is usually best to allow one's archivist to make statements regarding technical issues.

I doubt very much that Kodak made a special nitrate base for Disney specifically for the OCN of Sleeping Beauty, which was shot on black & white negative, not color stock.

I believe Mr. Ho misspoke in regard to multiple tech issues. Not a terrible thing, as for a brief moment, it took some people's minds away from the melting of the polar ice caps.

RAH

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."  T.E. Lawrence

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#178
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8/29/08 at 8:07pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
It is usually best to allow one's archivist to make statements regarding technical issues.

I doubt very much that Kodak made a special nitrate emulsion for Disney specifically for the OCN of Sleeping Beauty, which was shot on black & white negative, not color stock.

I believe Mr. Ho misspoke in regard to multiple tech issues. Not a terrible thing, as for a brief moment, it took some people's minds away from the melting of the polar ice caps.

RAH

Did they shoot each frame of Sleeping Beauty 3 times with color filters to produce technicolor negatives as was done with the previous Technicolor features? I guess I assumed being a Super Technirama 70 film, it would have been shot with an Eastman color negative.

Doug
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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#179
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8/29/08 at 8:11pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

The polar ice caps are melting?



Oh, and I especially like the Aladdin poster from above. Now back to your regularly scheduled topic...
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#180
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8/29/08 at 8:14pm
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Re: Sleeping Beauty BD - 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidJ
The polar ice caps are melting?


Hey I like a few ice cubes in my scotch!
"I'm in great shape, for the shape I'm in."
Bob Hope in The Ghostbreakers
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