HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

Does anyone yet offer a pre-pro with support for HDMI 1.3?

I am beginning to map out upgrades to my HT. I'd like to start out getting a Denon DVD-3930CI for DVD/SACD/DVD-A, and a Toshiba HD-XA2 for HD-DVD. Later I would add an OTA HDTV tuner with HDMI output, and possibly a Blu-Ray player once the next generation of Blu-Ray stand-alone players hits the market.

My current pre-pro is a Theta CasaNova. It does not have 5.1 analog inputs, and predates HDMI by several years.

I'd like to replace it with something that has a nice smooth/warm sound quality, flexible bass management, and support for HDMI video switching and the new audio formats that the high-def disc formats offer (multi-channel PCM, TrueHD, etc.).

What are my options - available or coming within the next several months? Maximum budget is $4K. That rules out the ultra-high-end stuff from Theta, Classé, etc.

You'd think that the manufacturers could make these changes more quickly now by designing a good 5.1 / 7.1 analog preamp, and modularizing it so the digital 'engine' can be upgraded periodically. But it seems this hasn't happened, and receivers are ahead of pre-pros in offering these features.

I don't want to use a receiver as a pre-pro. All the money needs to go into making a good pre/pro, rather than into low-quality built-in amps that I won't use.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

Sherwood Newcastle has a pre-pro scheduled to come out in August with 1.3. The model number is R-972. The other best option may be a Denon AVR that you could use as a pre-pro. At CES they said their new line of receivers (I believe they're due out this summer) would all have HDMI 1.3.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

I think I saw in the latest WSR that Theta has a new pre/pro in the works. I think it has 1.3, but not sure.

NAD also is supposed to have something soon with 1.3.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

If Sherwood Newcastle has a new HDMI 1.3 pre-pro in the works, I wonder if Outlaw Audio is bringing out a new pre-pro as well.

They recently cut the price of the Model 990, which I believe was co-developed with Sherwood Newcastle. (Outlaw's version is supposedly based on the same design but built with a few additional features and higher parts quality.)

I hope Outlaw is still working with Sherwood Newcastle on this type of joint product development. Having heard an earlier Outlaw pre-pro at a home theater meet (pre-pro shootout in Austin about 4-5 years ago), it was one of my favorites of the bunch.

Nothing mentioned about a new upcoming pre-pro on Outlaw's site, though.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

I suppose if any of us were curious enough, we could check Outlaw's forum.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

Took a peek at Outlaw's forums. Found this thread:

http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/ultim.../t/000285.html

Looks like Outlaw is developing new products, which may support HDMI 1.3 and the new sound formats, but they aren't going to be available for purchase in the immediate future.

Guess it'll be a bit of a wait before HDMI 1.3 and good pre-amp design/construction come together.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

Looks like that Sherwood R-972 is a receiver, not a pre-pro.

http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9676526-1.html

Seems counter-intuitive to me that the "high end" companies can't get the resources (parts, documentation, engineering expertise) to design and build a cutting-edge pre-pro as soon as the mass-market companies can. Besides, a "high-end" customer is going to want all the new features along with high-performance analog pre-amp electronics.

Good analog pre-amp designs have been around for years. I wonder why a high-end company hasn't modularized the 5.1 / 7.1 analog preamp piece, so that when new formats and connectors come along, they only have to redesign / re-implement the connectors / digital portion of the pre-pro, stick them in a chassis, test, and ship?

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

They are around but probably more than $4k. The Bryston SP2, for example, is basically an analog multi-channel preamp with a processor attached. They are looking at the HDMI issue now but I would not expect to see an announcement until CES. I think by CES in Jan., you'll see other manuf. too. Smaller cos. or products produced in a more ltd. no. are usually not the 1st to see new technology. Yamaha tooks some heat for their recently released rec'rs with HDMI 1.2a. Chips are more readily available now and probably announcements will come between the time of CEDIA in Sept. and CES in Jan.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

Sure wish Outlaw would get something out this year that is up-to-date. I mean the 990 has awards from 2005 - that's 2 whole years ago!! Come on already.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

I'd rather them take their time and do it right, than rush it and have to do another iteration.

I'm surprised we haven't heard anything from Rotel, in that they are usually on the forefront too.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

It is BECAUSE they are hi-end companies that they don't always have the latest technology i.e. they are much smaller than Yamaha/Pioneer/etc and so don't have the deeeeeep pockets of these enormous companies, along with their extensive R&D facilities.

Do some digging on the net and you'll find how incredibly expensive it is to buy the licenses and the gear itself and integrate it into your own company's equipment. Particularly digital-based systems designed by world-wide consortiums that need to follow exacting specifications to work correctly with other pieces of gear from other manufacturers. And also, being a quality control inspector once upon a time, I know how expensive just testing such systems can become (many times this must be done by a specialized firm contracted by the audio company) and maintaining that quality is also not cheap i.e. QC people need to be paid to make sure of this. OTOH analog systems are much easier to deal with, hence the large number of small specialty preamp, power amp and loudspeaker manufacturers out there.

This is why I'm almost never impressed when people tout X product's supposed superiority over another product only because the other product is from a larger competitor: unless the larger competitor is so big, unwieldy & filled with layer upon layer of managment that there engineering dept is *less* important than their marketing department (I could name some names, but want to keep this on-topic ), I'm willing to bet many times the so-called mass-market gear is just as good - if not better - than the "hi-end" company's product. Sometimes size does matter.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

Integra's DTC-9.8 pre/pro is due out at the end of July that will be 1.3 compliant and will be priced at $1600. Has some nice touches too like balanced as well as single ended connection options.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

ErickS -

That's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for - a pre/pro at a reasonable cost that has support for HDMI 1.3 and all the audio formats (DVD-A, SACD, DTS-MA, DD+, etc.).

LanceJ -

I kind of suspected what you say - that the resources to develop new pre-pros are often expensive / not readily available to the smaller companies that develop high-end audio products.

No wonder so many small "high-end" manufacturers have gone the retro vinyl/tubes route.

That said, I'm holding out hopes that the companies who sell gear that falls in-between the mass-market names (Sony, Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer, etc.) and the ultra-expensive high end (Theta, Krell, Classé, etc.) will bring out some new pre-pros this year.

These relatively "affordable" high-end companies I'm thinking of include Outlaw, Sunfire, Rotel, higher-end Denon, Adcom, Parasound, etc. Of these, Denon probably has the most big-company resources to throw at developing a new HDMI 1.3 pre-pro, but I'd probably prefer the Outlaw / Sunfire / Rotel type of sound (warm and smooth tonal character).

If I can find an Integra dealer near Austin (their Web site doesn't list any), I'll see if I can audition that new DTC-9.8 in July...

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

There is also the NAD T175 which is due out later this fall, no solid date that I've heard of.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

The Integra DTC-9.8 is on the market! After stopping for lunch today, I passed by a shop, Austin Home Theater, which is an Integra dealer.

They had a DTC-9.8 sitting out in their front room, but it wasn't hooked up yet. They thought it would be about 60-90 days before they had it set up in their demonstration room. Apparently, they are waiting for some new power amps to come in before set it up, but they said they've sold a handful of these units already.

MSRP is $1,600, which is not bad for a pre-pro with 4-in/2-out HDMI switching, 7.1 analog input, Silicon Optix HQV video processing, and support for DVD-A, SACD, DD+, and DTS-HD over DIGITAL HDMI inputs.

Since I only had a few minutes to stick around before rushing back to work (have to earn money to buy toys!), they played a couple of tracks from audio CDs on an all-Integra equipment stack (DPS-10.5 universal player, DTR-7.8 receiver) and Sonus Faber speakers (Grand Pianos).

On that receiver / universal player setup, the highs were smoother than I expected. The Sonus Fabers seemed to have a bit of coloration and bloat in the mid-bass compared to the Magnepan speakers I am using. But it was hard to tell in a short demo (of different equipment, no less) if I can expect high-end audio performance ... or not.

So things look initially promising but I'm not quite ready to fork out $1,600 until I have more confidence in the DTC-9.8's sound quality.

Has anyone gotten to listen to this unit (preferably in their own system) and formed any impressions?

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

Lots of meaningless info at AVS, but a few people have their's already and have posted. I'm keen on this guy too, but I'm holding off until the NAD is out too so I can get a feel for the differences.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

I read the AVS thread today, and found a promising sign: One of the first few people to get the Integra DTC-9.8 is also a Magnepan user. He had good things to say about the sound quality (especially after doing room correction with the Audyssey feature).

I've found Maggies to be ruthlessly revealing of bright or hard-sounding treble. This is my biggest concern with sound quality - bargain-basement electronics can sound harsh and fatiguing on Maggies.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

After another week of positive comments on the Integra DTC-9.8 over at AVSForum, I decided to take the plunge and order the Integra pre-pro.

It will probably be 2-4 weeks before it shows up.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

There is a thread over at Home Theater Lounge discussing some of the HDMI receivers and the Integra Pre/Pro. I know many people, including myself probably won't budget for a dedicated pre/pro and have been happy running a receiver with an outboard amp to make up for the often anemic power of mid-level receivers.

Hopefully Ron and Parker don't mind me posting that. If they do, they can delete this, I won't be offended in the least.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

I've got my eye on the 9.8 as well. Trying to sift through the junk on AVS is tedious, but the few people who have goten them so far seem happy with them. I'd love to see a more "civilized" discussion here when someone gets one.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

CharlesJP -

I don't think there's anything offensive or inappropriate in your comments...

There's been a lot of excitement about the DTC-9.8 because it actually lists for less than a comparable receiver (the Integra DTR-7.8 or the Onkyo 905, which I think is about $2,400 MSRP vs. $1,600 MSRP for the DTC-9.8).

It's never made sense to me that a lot of pre-pros cost significantly more than receivers. It should cost less to build an identical unit but remove the built-in 7.1 power amps. At the same price point, it should be possible to build a pre-pro with higher parts/sound quality than a receiver with otherwise identical features.

That said, many people have been buying receivers and using them as pre-pros. I went with the DTC-9.8 because it just bugs me to pay for built-in amps that I'm not using...

ErickS -

Agreed about the junk and off-topic clutter in the AVS thread. About one in five posts is about the Integra pre-pro! I'll post my impressions here when I get mine, but that's at least 2-4 weeks away.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

I agree, absolutely. Frankly neither is in my budget. I'm interested in the ~$800 TX-SR705. I'm thrilled that someone is releasing a pre/pro with sensible pricing though, for people with a bigger budget than myself.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

(Mostly) marketing, IMO. "It does one thing, so it must be better." Though I've read over the years that many preamps DO have better parts in them than their receiver equivalents.

Also, receivers sell in much greater quantities than prepros i.e. the economy of scale thing, so preamps cannot be priced as low.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

Colin- If you do get the 9.8, it looks like you're going to use an Oppo 980H with it? Let us know how that goes. I am really close to pulling the trigger on the Oppo, but I'm still debating waiting for the NAD HDMI 1.3 pre/pro before I decide what to do there.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

Still don't have my Integra 9.8 (these things are in incredibly short supply), but I just got word today that my pre-pro has shipped. I should have it within a week. Stay tuned for updates. I'm stoked about using this pre-pro with the Oppo to get multi-channel SACD with a completely digital signal path.

Once I get it, I'll post a detailed report on the sound quality and set-up. So far, all comments at AVS about sound quality have been good - but I'll be tough to please, because my HT is ruthlessly revealing (Maggies will do that for you)...

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

I saw that Rotel has a new one - the model 1069 I believe. The press release said it was $2.2k list from memory.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

I *knew* Rotel wouldn't be far behind.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

Does anyone have a good authorized source that I can order the Integra 9.8 (or Onkyo PR-SC885) from?

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

The new Rotel doesn't appear to do decoding of TrueHD or DTS-HD, so you'd be limited to using LPCM over HDMI, not that that is a huge drawback, but it's sort of 2006 as far as a new pre/pro goes.

Re: HDMI 1.3 pre-pro?

You could be right, I just dug out the full press release.

"ROTEL DEBUTS NEW SURROUND PROCESSOR/PREAMP

North Reading, MA—September 5, 2007—International audio-video manufacturer Rotel Electronics, has been known worldwide for more than four decades for their unique high-end audio and home theater components. The latest example to be unveiled at the 2007 CEDIA Show in Denver, Colorado, is the new RSP-1069 surround processor-preamplifier equipped with the latest generation of digital signal processing and reference-grade audio and video components. The RSP-1069 is the ideal centerpiece for a sophisticated system for state-of-the-art audiophile music reproduction and superb home theater impact.


“Rotel’s commitment to delivering reference performance at rational prices is as strong as ever,” says Rotel America’s V.P. & General Manager, Mike Bartlett, “And the new RSP-1069 is as powerful an example as we have ever offered. Its straightforward design, uncomplicated user interface, and handsome industrial design complement world-class performance on both audio and video planes, a fact that serious music lovers and home-theater fans are sure to appreciate.”

With its simple, uncluttered front panel testifying to an easy user interface, the RSP-1069 is at home atop the most advanced system-stacks, whether concealed in a custom-built equipment closet or in a place of pride atop a rack or cabinet. Technologically, what’s inside the RSP-1069 makes it ideally suited to deliver all of the performance even the most demanding multichannel installation demands.

The RSP-1069 features the Aureus™ audio-DSP engine from Texas Instruments, one of the most powerful and sophisticated on the market. This gives the RSP-1069 a superb foundation for its state-of-the-art multichannel audio palette, which includes the full menu of Dolby Digital/EX, Pro Logic II/x, and DTS/ES-Discrete and Neo:6 modes. This sophisticated start is leveraged fully by the RSP-1069’s use of 24-bit/192 kHz digital-to-analog converters (from industry leader Burr Brown) on all channels, as well as Rotel’s strict adherence to its “Balanced Design Concept,” which lavishes equal care on component-selection and circuit design of each critical section, including digital, video, analog-audio, and power-supply designs.

On the video side, Rotel has selected the proven, impeccable-performing Faroudja DCDi™ video processor to provide upscaling of incoming video sources (analog or digital) up to 1080p (or 1080i or 720p, if preferred), with impressive freedom from artifacts and unsurpassed preservation of original video quality. With no less than four HDMI inputs and three HD/1080i-capable component paths on tap, the Rotel design offers plenty of input/output flexibility for even elaborate home theater installations.

Just as important to many customers, the RSP-1069 provides ample automation options. Three independently assignable 12-volt triggers, and fully duplex (“two-way”) RS-232 serial-port control enable integration with controllers such as Rotel’s RKP range of in-wall keypad controllers, or with custom touchscreen or other media-control systems. What’s more, the Rotel’s three additional zones of stereo audio-plus-video, each with individual source-selection and volume control, allow the RSP-1069 to serve as the command center of a flexible multiroom system, to which Rotel’s new line of ultra-compact, high-power Class D multichannel amplifiers present the perfect complement.

The Rotel RSP-1069 Surround Processor/Preamplifier is meticulously assembled and available in Black Matte or black and Silver cabinets.

Availability: Third Quarter 2007
Suggested Retail Price: $2,199.00

About Rotel Electronics
Rotel audio products are known worldwide for their quality, reliability, value, and, above all, exceptional sound reproduction. Since 1961, Rotel has utilized the resources of its formidable international design team and has manufactured its products in its own sophisticated production facilities. Rotel proudly offers a complete range of electronics that have consistently received critical acclaim and coveted industry awards. With substantial investment in new technologies and manufacturing, Rotel is prepared to meet the challenges of an evolving specialty electronics marketplace.
"