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Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

#91
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8/14/07 at 9:44pm
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

I think people's problem with this new Trek CGI stuff is that it tries to "improve" what was originally done, which didn't have anything wrong in the first place. If the changes were to fix a continuity error, then most everyone accepts that.... such as what they did to Space:1999 (Testament Of Arkadia) when they are flying and landing, the sky is blue, but then they used a stock shot (money saving maneuver) from another episode after the landing when they disembark, where the sky is orange. On the R2 set, they simply corrected that scene and made the sky blue, fixing a continuity error that was on the original print. If this was the only type of thing that was done to Trek, then most would accept it, I think alot of fans feel theyv'e gone too far. Personally, my biggest problem with objects such as ships done in CGI, is that in the the deep space scenes, the areas of shadow on the spacecrafts aren't DARK ENOUGH, areas in shadow should be nearly black. And the planets don't look right, either. Like in Space:1999, where they airbrushed the planets onto glass slides... the CGI planets lack a certain "glowing" quality that you can only get from a semi-transparent medium, not to mention the lack of atmosphere haze on those planets which have one. The computer geeks have yet to truly master the look of how light REALLY falls upon an object, because theyr'e technonerds.... not artists. So there you have the crux of your problem, you have techies doing a job which used to be done by an ARTIST.
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#92
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8/15/07 at 10:11am
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphanguy
The computer geeks have yet to truly master the look of how light REALLY falls upon an object, because theyr'e technonerds.... not artists. So there you have the crux of your problem, you have techies doing a job which used to be done by an ARTIST.
You can debate the merits of replacing the original effects but just because they're using a computer to create an effect doesn't render it any less of an artform than doing a model.
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#93
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8/15/07 at 12:20pm
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphanguy
I think people's problem with this new Trek CGI stuff is that it tries to "improve" what was originally done, which didn't have anything wrong in the first place. If the changes were to fix a continuity error, then most everyone accepts that.... such as what they did to Space:1999 (Testament Of Arkadia) when they are flying and landing, the sky is blue, but then they used a stock shot (money saving maneuver) from another episode after the landing when they disembark, where the sky is orange. On the R2 set, they simply corrected that scene and made the sky blue, fixing a continuity error that was on the original print. If this was the only type of thing that was done to Trek, then most would accept it, I think alot of fans feel theyv'e gone too far. Personally, my biggest problem with objects such as ships done in CGI, is that in the the deep space scenes, the areas of shadow on the spacecrafts aren't DARK ENOUGH, areas in shadow should be nearly black. And the planets don't look right, either. Like in Space:1999, where they airbrushed the planets onto glass slides... the CGI planets lack a certain "glowing" quality that you can only get from a semi-transparent medium, not to mention the lack of atmosphere haze on those planets which have one. The computer geeks have yet to truly master the look of how light REALLY falls upon an object, because theyr'e technonerds.... not artists. So there you have the crux of your problem, you have techies doing a job which used to be done by an ARTIST.

To me, the Space:1999 example is worse then Star Trek. That continuity mistake was a part of the episode and they changed it and made it the new official version. I'm not too bothered by it since in the final analysis, it is a small detail but the I object to the principal that you can digitally change continuity and other errors and it still can be considered an "original version"

In the case of Star Trek, it is an alternate version and the original is still available. Well kind of, the DVD's have newly produced 5.1 stereo soundtracks that Paramount seems to want to take the place of the original mono versions. I will always remember that in shows like Balance of Terror, there was no sound to the proximity phasers in the original version. Also, most first season shows failed to have a sound other than music for the exterior ship traveling shots. The new soundtracks make sure that there is engine sound for the ship that wasn't always there. In that aspect the show is forever changed from the 60's version. I would like it if they had an option for the original sound, but they don't.
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#94
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8/15/07 at 11:02pm
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

CGI is less of an art form, because it's not done by artists. An actual object will always be just that... while a "rendering" of an object will also be just a "rendering". It's like the difference between cool whip and real whipped cream, those with discrminating tastes can tell the difference. And I think the Space:1999 example is a fine example, Gerry Anderson didn't INTEND for the sky to be orange in "Testament Of Arkadia", it was the last episode shot and they simply had no money to shoot a new disembarking scene, and the technology didn't exist to correct such things in 1974. If CGI is used very carefully, and in limited doses... it can be a great boon. But as with all good things, people get slap happy with it and carry it too far.
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#95
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8/16/07 at 12:34am
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphanguy
CGI is less of an art form, because it's not done by artists. An actual object will always be just that... while a "rendering" of an object will also be just a "rendering".

I'm stupefied at the ignorance in this comment. Tell me, what sort of slack-jawed yokel criteria are you using to determine that the people who work so diligently in this modern era of visual effects work are not, in fact, artists? And then could you please explain how when something is a simple "rendering" of a real object, that is somehow is no longer art? Or does it not occur to you that paintings and drawings and even photographs of real fake spaceships are in fact just "Renderings" and that the objects themselves have not mystically transported into your personal field of view?

"Because he's the hero that Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now... and so we'll hunt him... because he can take it... because he's not a hero... he's a silent guardian, a watchful protector... a DARK KNIGHT."

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#96
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8/16/07 at 8:02am
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphanguy
CGI is less of an art form, because it's not done by artists.
So the guys at Pixar or ILM or WETA aren't artists because they use a computer? I don't think you'll convince too many people of that.

Whether you like or dislike CGI is a matter of opinion but saying that they're not artists is just incorrect.
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#97
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8/16/07 at 8:17am
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphanguy
CGI is less of an art form, because it's not done by artists.
Most high end CGers are trained artists who learned to apply their skills on the computer. They are not techies who are trying to be artists. But the bottom line is the unmitigated arrogance of judging art of any kind to be "lesser" is just sickening.

I'm a ****ing idiot 'cause I can't make a lamp?
No, you're a genius 'cause you can't make a lamp.
What do you know about trigonometry?
I could care less about trigonometry.
Did you know without trigonometry there would be no engineering? Without lamps there'd be no light.

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#98
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8/16/07 at 3:33pm
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

It's just a matter of real vs. fake. Let's get right down to it, shall we? It boils down to the same thing everything else in this world boils down to: MONEY. It's cheaper to poke some buttons than to put forth some actual creativity and physical movement. That Zagar And Evans song may come true sooner than we think! and all kinds of things are judged to be "lesser" like how Wal-Mart is "lesser" than bloomingdales. Same concept, different application.
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#99
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8/16/07 at 3:56pm
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

Let's stay on point. Quality of tangible goods have nothing to do with subjective aesthetics.

Creativity is completely unrelated to method or medium. Photography was considered unartistic by many classically trained painters when it first started being used. The thought was, "How much talent does it take to use some chemicals and take an exact image of an actual scene?" Preference is one thing, but utter dismissal is another.

I'm a ****ing idiot 'cause I can't make a lamp?
No, you're a genius 'cause you can't make a lamp.
What do you know about trigonometry?
I could care less about trigonometry.
Did you know without trigonometry there would be no engineering? Without lamps there'd be no light.

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#100
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8/16/07 at 4:18pm
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphanguy
It boils down to the same thing everything else in this world boils down to: MONEY. It's cheaper to poke some buttons than to put forth some actual creativity and physical movement.
You're misinformed. Just because it's made on a computer, it's not automatically cheaper than building a model. CG can be tremendously expensive. While CG can be abused, the main reason to use it is because it enables you to do things that couldn't be done in any other way and when it's done right, it has added to many films.
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#101
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8/22/07 at 5:49pm
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

TVshowsonDVD has some minor updated info and pics of the new HD-DVD/SD-DVD Trek set.

http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/newsitem.cfm?NewsID=7914
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#102
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8/22/07 at 7:43pm
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

Nelson Au,
Thanks for the link & getting us back on track!
Don't know about that Corvette Yellow packaging!!! ;-)

There are two kinds of art: The kind I like & the kind I don't like.
JJ!

Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
HD should be for EVERYONE!

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#103
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8/22/07 at 8:04pm
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

I'm sure the color is not quite properly represented there. But it makes sense, the SD box sets for season one was yellow gold to represent the command color uniforms. It follows that the Season Two set will likely be blue and the Third Season will be red.
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#104
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8/23/07 at 5:53am
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

Are folks actually going to support this, and rebuy all 3 seasons again in HD? How good can 1960's film prints be made to look?

Why are the powers that be forcing us to start over, and support a brand new DVD format.

I find this disgusting... Understand, I'm not knocking Star Trek fans here. I just can't fathom the idea of having another antiquated machine sitting around unusable.

3 years ago I bought a Runco DLP projector, spent over 3000 for it, and now even it's going to be obsolete.

OK- Done venting... Hope the set is everything you hope for. I have TOS on DVD, and I obviously plan on sticking with those.
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#105
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8/23/07 at 8:03am
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Cleveland
Are folks actually going to support this, and rebuy all 3 seasons again in HD? How good can 1960's film prints be made to look?
The age of a movie or TV show is meaningless. The increase in resolution between the two formats means that this is going to blow the SD DVDs out of the water.

Look in the HD thread for The Adventures Of Robin Hood- that's nearly 70 years old and it looks amazing.
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#106
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8/23/07 at 11:25am
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR
The age of a movie or TV show is meaningless. The increase in resolution between the two formats means that this is going to blow the SD DVDs out of the water.

Apart from the HD discs not containing the actual, original Star Trek shows obviously.
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#107
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8/23/07 at 1:22pm
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

Quote:
Originally Posted by John H Ross
Apart from the HD discs not containing the actual, original Star Trek shows obviously.

What does this mean?
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#108
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8/23/07 at 1:51pm
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

The HD-DVD will (apparently) only contain the versions with the new visual effects.
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Transplanted Life: Sci-fi soap opera about a man placed in a new body, updated two or three times a week.
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#109
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8/24/07 at 4:55am
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

A small question I would interject here. It may go without saying but it's best to know. These "remastered" episodes will include the ENTIRE original running time for each show, right?

I've seen all these redone episodes and most just update the "frame" or sequences where the ship arrives in orbit of some planet and then leaves at end. All that transpires planetside is pretty much left as is.

My very real concern is that what they've been airing for these shows is a badly butchered, edit wise, print of each episode. Way too much has been cut out. If that is what is being put on the discs and not the COMPLETE episode, then Paramount is really doing us all a disservice and is wasting our time or at least those of us who are really interested.

I could take them or leave them. I'm 52 and remember loving them as a kid during their original broadcast. Why screw with them? This is another practice like Colorization that I abhor. The BBC did something similar with Doctor Who ("The Five Doctors," etc.) and that pissed me off royally.

If anyone knows for sure I would like some enlightenment. Thanks.
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#110
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8/24/07 at 6:07am
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

Paramount has restored the picture and updated the effects of the entire episode - the broadcasts just cut them in order to sell more ads. I think that the full versions are actually made available on the Xbox Live service. The new HD-DVD boxed set will almost certainly include the full runtime versions.
Jay's Movie Blog - A movie-viewing diary.
Transplanted Life: Sci-fi soap opera about a man placed in a new body, updated two or three times a week.
Trading Post Inn - Another gender-bending soap, with different collaborators writing different points of view.

"What? Since when was this an energy ball...
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#111
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8/24/07 at 8:59am
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

This question of uncut episodes has crop up a lot recently. You can bank on it that they are full uncut episodes. If they weren't, you'd see another uproar. Some episodes might, and that's my conjecture, be ever so slightly longer due to some tweaking of the added CGI effects. And at the most 2 or 3 seconds. My opinion based on what was done with The Doomsday Machne where they slightly altered the way the shuttle with Decker on board leaves the Enterprise, the sound effects don't match the visuals. It's really minor and you have to know what to look for. Or the edits there were due to the syndication cuts. We'll know for sure when the discs are out.
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#112
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8/24/07 at 12:14pm
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

Something to note is that the current Paramount syndicated versions that are shown on TVLand (these are with the original effects) are cut identicaly as the remastered ones. The same scenes are cut in both versions.

Editing classic TV shows on modern cable is a fact of life and it is one of the selling points for DVD sets(even though there are instances of shows turning up edited on DVD sets. These are usually do to a mistake or loss of unedited material).

They will be unedited, as they were on the previous DVD's.
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#113
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8/24/07 at 1:36pm
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

Because of the CGI, some of the scenes fadeout earlier than the original. So, in that respect, some scenes are cut, replaced with a transition to CGI because the original fade point does not work with the new effect. Just a fact of life, can't be helped. But at most it's just a few seconds. Like in Errand of Mercy, the closing shot of Kor at the end fades earlier than normal to make way for a new CGI shot. That doesn't mean the show is shorter than the uncut, but the scene clearly lacks a bit of the film at the end of the scene.
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#114
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8/24/07 at 7:18pm
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Cleveland
Are folks actually going to support this, and rebuy all 3 seasons again in HD? How good can 1960's film prints be made to look?

Why are the powers that be forcing us to start over, and support a brand new DVD format.

No need to fear, from what I understand, the new HD DVD players are backward compatible, so you can play a standard DVD on them, no problem. It's like when vinyl records went from Mono to Stereo, you could still play the Mono records on the stereo turntable. and they won't be releasing all the TV shows over again in HD. HD only makes a visual difference if the show was shot on FILM... any videotaped sitcoms and such would have no benefit.
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#115
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8/27/07 at 1:37pm
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

I already posted this in the HD section, but it seems applicable here: as reported on trekmovie.com just now, Amazon has Star Trek TOS Remastered HD-DVD hybrid Season 1 set for pre-order. Full price is listed at $198.99. Pre-order price is $138.99.

If this is correct, then Paramount did lower the price. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...SIN=B000VDDDY6

Additionally, it is reported that the CGI in these episodes will be as aired, meaning the earlier weaker CGI has not been redone. And they are the full unedited episodes.
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#116
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8/27/07 at 3:28pm
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson Au
I already posted this in the HD section, but it seems applicable here: as reported on trekmovie.com just now, Amazon has Star Trek TOS Remastered HD-DVD hybrid Season 1 set for pre-order. Full price is listed at $198.99. Pre-order price is $138.99.

If this is correct, then Paramount did lower the price. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...SIN=B000VDDDY6

Additionally, it is reported that the CGI in these episodes will be as aired, meaning the earlier weaker CGI has not been redone. And they are the full unedited episodes.

I don't think Paramount lowered the MSRP only that Amazon did what was normally done and offered it a certain percentage off MSRP.

The week this and any other higher profile DVD is released, most retailers will have it on sale. When I hear what a DVD's suggested retail price is, I know that there will be opportunites to get it for a lot less.
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#117
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8/28/07 at 5:12am
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

As far I can tell, many of the *remastered* episodes haven't been altered at all, except for the credits and the usual orbital shot of the ship. It would appear then that only real purpose of adding CGI was to make the original Enterprise look more like the ships in the other shows, which just seems silly to me. No one watches ST:TOS just to see the Enterprise fly by.

BTW, the debate about whether or not CGI artists are real artists I think misses the point, which is simply that some people prefer modelwork over computer graphics. I tend to prefer models since CGI never looks very solid, and the physics and lighting often seem wrong.
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#118
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8/28/07 at 6:34am
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

For those of us on the Amazon 10% off promo that works out to $126 - a far amount below the previously speculated amount.

I'm in.

Every man is my superior, in that I may learn from him.

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#119
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8/28/07 at 6:37am
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

The funny thing is, the CGI used on the first few remastered episodes - before they built a new less-detailed computer model - actually looked more like authentic space footage to me. Later, they lit it more like a model in an atmosphere to match the original model work.
Jay's Movie Blog - A movie-viewing diary.
Transplanted Life: Sci-fi soap opera about a man placed in a new body, updated two or three times a week.
Trading Post Inn - Another gender-bending soap, with different collaborators writing different points of view.

"What? Since when was this an energy ball...
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#120
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8/28/07 at 10:57am
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Re: Star Trek TOS DVD/HD-DVD coming

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Seaver
The funny thing is, the CGI used on the first few remastered episodes - before they built a new less-detailed computer model - actually looked more like authentic space footage to me. Later, they lit it more like a model in an atmosphere to match the original model work.
I actually think the opposite. The earlier CGI work on the Enterprise looked too "ghostly" and flat. The CGI in the later episodes have the Enterprise looking more detailed and better lit unlike the original blue-screen stage lighting on the 11-footer.

Joel

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