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Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

#91
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11/24/06 at 8:10pm
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

I like mad scientist Luthor as well. Unfortunately, Spacey's Luthor was merely a less charming more sinister variation of Hackman's Luthor Who is neither scientist nor businessman.

I don't agree with Bryan's opinion that Singer "has a vast knowledge of the history of the character". I don't believe he does. I believe he has a vast love for Donner's work on the character. I think he's been pretty straightforward about that.
Hey buddy...did you just see a real bright light?
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#92
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11/24/06 at 10:18pm
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Mayer
I don't agree with Bryan's opinion that Singer "has a vast knowledge of the history of the character". I don't believe he does. I believe he has a vast love for Donner's work on the character. I think he's been pretty straightforward about that.

To respecfully rebuttle, I'm basing this off of the Look, Up in the Sky! documentary, and his Q&A at Comic Con. I can't pull quotes, but my overall feeling was that he was well aware of the history of the Superman character. He knew who created him (which is important to Superman's origin), and the various incarnations of the character throughout the decades. He also was TRYING to create his own interpretation of Superman while paying homage to previous versions.

He did focus on Donner's work, using his movies as the cannon origin story. It's very clear that Superman Returns meant different things to many of us here. I felt that Spacey's Luthor was night and day with Hackman's. Re-using certain lines of dialogue and different takes on a scheme do NOT qualify as a simple readjustment of Hackman, in my opinion.

I would argue that the love for Donner's work ends there. The look of the movie, minus the crystals, was very different. Routh's Superman was quite different, Perry White was different, Lois was different.

I know I'm setting myself up to be slammed as an apologist here, but so be it. I loved Singer's take on Superman more than any other, despite growing up on Donner's version. Even if Zod is in the sequel, I'm willing to give Singer a chance to see where it goes and how it's used. He's a talented filmmaker who is partially responsable for saving the so-called comic book movie. He's earned the benifit of the doubt, in my book.
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#93
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11/25/06 at 3:53am
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ri
Who says you have to recreate the comics that are written TODAY? I would argue that if anything, the creative team tried too much to pay homage to the previous incarnations of Superman. As seen through various interviews, Singer has a vast knowledge of the history of the character. He chose to make HIS movie in a particular way. With some of us, the movie struck a very positive chord. Some were underwhelmed.

I'm sick of the thread crapping that goes on with every discussion about Superman on these boards. Whether its in the software section or the movie section, it turns into a cat fight about Bryan Singer.

Hey Bryan,

First of all, I'm not thread crapping. Secondly, what I stated is an opinion which happens to be in accordance with four other people who also feel that Singer's knowledge of Superman only extends to the Donner/Lester movies. So please Bryan don't just single me out, I've done nothing wrong but post an opinion that is contrary to yours. Maybe you've forgotten, but that is what the movie section of the Home Theater Forum is about, posting opinions about movies. If opinions that are opposite to your own offend you then I suggest you develop thicker skin or Kryptonian skin .

Bryan if you like the movie then fine, I honestly respect that, but at least be open to the fact that there are others who flat out didn't like Superman Returns and I'm one of them.

Bryan you claim that your assesment of Singer's Superman knowledge came from watching his Comic-Con Q & A session on the Up, Up and Away documentary, well I was actually at the Q&A the year before the movie was released and this year while the film was currently playing in the theaters. I even stood in line and asked the man why he would want to pick up after a movie that is almost 30 years old, his answer was that if it wasn't for Superman: The Movie, there would be no X-Men or Spider-Man films. Personally, I don' think he really answered my question, I think Singer was just paying lip service to the Comic-Con crowd. But, my point is, I've actually spoken to the man in person, and heard him speak in person three times in the last six years and I can honestly say the man doesn't seem to understand the Superman universe past what Richard Donner has already established.

Oh, and as far as this situation of some forum members preferring Mad Scientist Lex over Corporate Lex goes, many people may have forgotten that Corporate Lex is still a scientific genius, it's just that in his current incarnation he's used his scientific knowledge to make billions of dollars. He is still a scientist and quite mad on certain levels.
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#94
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11/25/06 at 5:06am
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

I appologize that I came off as singling you out, Corey. It certainly was not my intention.
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#95
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11/25/06 at 7:50am
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ri
I appologize that I came off as singling you out, Corey. It certainly was not my intention.

It's all good, apology accepted.
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#96
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11/25/06 at 8:01am
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

slightly OT (but since it was already brought up...)
I watched all but the last two eps on the first disc of JLU. Even though animation tends to leave me cold (especially the stiff, low budget network kind) I really enjoyed what I saw. So much so that I'm going to keep the copy I ordered from DDD instead of sending it back (I ordered way too much stuff this last sale and I'm in the process of packing a lot of it up to send back).
Looks like it will be a fun ride.

I caught a little bit of the commentary on one of the eps, and its funny that Timm mentions Joss Whedon and Buffy in his apporach to the JLU material. The second ep on the disc that contains Supermans special Birthday gift is taken from a story by Alan Moore. Watching it I was reminded of one of my favorite Buffy eps- Normal Again from S6. Its basically the same story. Have to wonder if Joss (or whoever) read the Moore story and if that is what influenced that particular ep, or if it is just a common theme (I could see Star Trek doing something like that as well).
anyways, good stuff. Looking forward to seeing the rest of the season.
Is this storyline complete within the season, or does it have a cliffhanger?
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#97
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11/25/06 at 8:13am
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_Scott
I have the first disc of JLU coming in from Netflix (probably today!) and am looking forward to seeing it.

Disc 1 is all individual adventures with rotating characters. Disc 2 is when it gets into the meat of the overall season story arc.

Hey Paul, I don't know how much you are into the Justice League series, but if you haven't watched season 2 of the Justice League, then I would suggest you watch it before getting too involved into season 1 of Justice League Unlimited. Season 2 of the Justice League sets up many of the storylines for season 1 of Unlimited.

As a matter of fact, to tie this into the whole Luthor debate, there is an episode on disc 3 of JLU where at the end Batman is laying up in bed all busted up (I won't divulge the reason's why) from a mission, as the episode ends you see Bruce Wayne watching a televised image of Luthor standing in front of the American flag. It is in my opinion a very chilling image of Superman's greatest enemy and a testament to the talent of Bruce Timm and company. They understand how truly evil Lex Luthor can be.

Although I prefer the stories that revolve around the core team members of Justice League seasons 1 and 2 as opposed to the rotating members of JLU ,I must agree with Chuck, JLU is turning out to be one of the best seasons of television I've ever watched. The Superfriends were never this cool.
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#98
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11/25/06 at 8:19am
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Unfortunately, Spacey's Luthor was merely a less charming more sinister variation of Hackman's Luthor Who is neither scientist nor businessman.

Well, I consider Hackman to be the "mad scientist Luthor", just with humor added. He was especially scientifically brilliant in the inimitable SUPERMAN IV. I do agree that Spacey is playing the same character as Hackman, just with a meaner edge.

Quote:
Oh, and as far as this situation of some forum members preferring Mad Scientist Lex over Corporate Lex goes, many people may have forgotten that Corporate Lex is still a scientific genius, it's just that in his current incarnation he's used his scientific knowledge to make billions of dollars. He is still a scientist and quite mad on certain levels.

That's true, but I prefer to see Luthor get his hands dirty and do a lot of the work himself, rather than hang around an office in an Armani suit telling everyone else what to do.
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#99
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11/25/06 at 8:48am
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Sutliff
Well, I consider Hackman to be the "mad scientist Luthor", just with humor added. He was especially scientifically brilliant in the inimitable SUPERMAN IV. I do agree that Spacey is playing the same character as Hackman, just with a meaner edge.



That's true, but I prefer to see Luthor get his hands dirty and do a lot of the work himself, rather than hang around an office in an Armani suit telling everyone else what to do.

Hey Larry,

I know I'm always ranting about the animated DC Universe, but if you aren't already watching it, the Justice League may be to your liking. Bruce Timm and company seem to bring some of mad scientist Lex into their incarnation of Luthor. As a matter of fact they even have him pimping the purple battle armor from the pre-crisis DC Universe.

Larry, season 1 of the Justice League introduces the Injustice Gang (or League), it is a two-part episode that has plenty of mad scientist Lex for you. As a matter of fact that two part story arc does a clever way transitioning Lex from corporate schemer to the mad scientist that you know and love from the pre-Crisis DC Universe.

Bruce Timm and many of his staff seem to have alot of love for the old school DC Universe, because they are constantly making sly references on Justice League.

Anyway, Larry I'll take new school Lex any day. He is still an evil scientist plus he has the Machevellian criminal tactics of Marvel's Kingpin, another favorite villain of mine.
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#100
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11/25/06 at 9:12am
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreyII
Hey Larry,

I know I'm always ranting about the animated DC Universe, but if you aren't already watching it, the Justice League may be to your liking. Bruce Timm and company seem to bring some of mad scientist Lex into their incarnation of Luthor. As a matter of fact they even have him pimping the purple battle armor from the pre-crisis DC Universe.


Thanks for the recommendation, Corey. A friend of mine keeps telling me to watch the animated JL, and I keep putting it off. Are they on DVD? If so, I'll put them on my Netflix queue.
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#101
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11/26/06 at 1:30am
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Sutliff
Thanks for the recommendation, Corey. A friend of mine keeps telling me to watch the animated JL, and I keep putting it off. Are they on DVD? If so, I'll put them on my Netflix queue.

You have a wise friend, you should take his or her advice. There are three volumes on DVD, Justice League seasons 1 and 2 which center around the seven core members: Supes, Bats, Wondy, The Flash, The Green Lantern, The Martian Manhunter, and last but definitely not least Hawkgirl. Season 1 is where the water is still being tested, but it is still a good season. Season 2 is where everything kicks into overdrive.

Certain unforseen events occur in season 2 that cause the team to expand and thus the third volume is retitled Justice League Unlimited season 1. Larry, because you seem to be an old school DC fan, I must let you know up front, the Green Lantern they chose for the show is not Hal Jordan or even Alan Scott, but rather Jon Stewart.

When Bruce Timm first announced that the Green Lantern was going to be Jon Stewart at the San Diego Comic-Con, I was a bit skeptical, only because Stewart was always a secondary character in the DC Universe and to me the Green Lantern begins and ends with Hal Jordan. Needless to say, Timm and company made a very wise decision, Jon Stewart is one of the most developed charcters on the show. To be honest each of the core members are well developed characters with their own individual personalities, personalities that don't always go together.

One last note Larry, if you haven't watched the very underrated Superman: The Animated Series, then you are in my humble opinion missing out on the best interpretation of Superman outside of the comic books. If nothing else, watch the third and final season of Superman because it sets up certain storylines that carry over into the Justice League series.
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#102
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11/26/06 at 5:23am
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Jon Stewart is one of the most developed charcters on the show

The Daily Show?

Sorry, couldn't resist

PeterTHX

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#103
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11/26/06 at 7:50am
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

This thread is not staying on topic.

Christopher Reeve Foundation
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#104
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11/26/06 at 10:03am
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

to tie into my earlier off topic comments- and make them on-topic, I would say that the 'Normal Again'/ Supermans Birthday Surprise theme is what I would envision as a strong opportunity to introduce a character like Mytzptlyx.
A character that seems campy when you first drop the name, but who actually can be used to serve an emotionally deep and affecting narrative.
The thing I like about this hook , especially as it would pertain to the franchise here, is that you can explore several very far out scenarios that are inclusive of and would actually embrace the presence of the son- i.e you could flash forward to a mordred/arthur like conflict with an aged Kal-el and a young adult Jason; you could explore the depth of supermans grief at a life spent keeping a distance from him- or if Jason should die unexpectedly, or the expanse of his happiness at selfishly living as just a family man with Jasons welfare as his sole or primary focus (all this in Kal-els imagination). The thing is, Mytzptlx, as I see the character, allows for being the vehicle to really explore Kal-el/Clark's psyche in a substantial way. Its an opportunity that doesn't as easily present itself when you drop in a villain like Doomsday, or some other 'power' character that pre-suppose a knock-down, drag out, fight scene resolution.
I know thats what a lot of fans want to see in general, but the former scenario still holds potential from eye popping set pieces (even if they are just 'imaginary').
But after witnessing the disheartening lack of originality on display in SR, I don't think Singer is going to be approaching this material with the mindset "what antagonist is really going to let us explore and define Superman for this series of films?" . I used to think Singer was that circumspect about the material he was working with, but no longer.
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#105
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11/26/06 at 10:33am
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

With the exception of your latest in a long line of jabs at Singer, I love your idea.
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#106
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11/26/06 at 11:37am
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Mainstream audiences would hate that storyline.

"Jee-sus, it's like Iwo Jima out there" - Roger Sterling on "Mad Men"
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#107
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11/26/06 at 11:50am
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreyII
You have a wise friend, you should take his or her advice. There are three volumes on DVD, Justice League seasons 1 and 2 which center around the seven core members: Supes, Bats, Wondy, The Flash, The Green Lantern, The Martian Manhunter, and last but definitely not least Hawkgirl. Season 1 is where the water is still being tested, but it is still a good season. Season 2 is where everything kicks into overdrive.

Certain unforseen events occur in season 2 that cause the team to expand and thus the third volume is retitled Justice League Unlimited season 1. Larry, because you seem to be an old school DC fan, I must let you know up front, the Green Lantern they chose for the show is not Hal Jordan or even Alan Scott, but rather Jon Stewart.

When Bruce Timm first announced that the Green Lantern was going to be Jon Stewart at the San Diego Comic-Con, I was a bit skeptical, only because Stewart was always a secondary character in the DC Universe and to me the Green Lantern begins and ends with Hal Jordan. Needless to say, Timm and company made a very wise decision, Jon Stewart is one of the most developed charcters on the show. To be honest each of the core members are well developed characters with their own individual personalities, personalities that don't always go together.

One last note Larry, if you haven't watched the very underrated Superman: The Animated Series, then you are in my humble opinion missing out on the best interpretation of Superman outside of the comic books. If nothing else, watch the third and final season of Superman because it sets up certain storylines that carry over into the Justice League series.


Thanks for the info, Corey. I have seen several episodes of SUPERMAN THE ANIMATED SERIES, and enjoyed them quite a bit.
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#108
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11/26/06 at 12:25pm
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm
This thread is not staying on topic.

What else is there to shoot the breeze about until new news comes in about the film?
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#109
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11/26/06 at 12:54pm
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Sun
Mainstream audiences would hate that storyline.

It does seem to be more prevelant with episodic material. You can deviate for one ep to focus on the inner struggle of the main character, and then next week its back to the regularly scheduled wrestling matches. I think it could work for a single theatrical feature- but it would take plenty of thought and consideration.
I will say that when I first saw the Buffy ep, it packed a whallop for me- it really got across that the season was not just a 'reset' getting them out of an impossible corner, but a very considered continuation.
And even though the JLU ep was by neccessity not as deep, I still found it more affecting than SR.
Seeing the sacrifices that a hero has to make can be extremely moving- especially when the hero never comes out and tells anyone "see the sacrifices I'm making here"- and the idea of complete hapiness being the result of an induced delusion...
I just remembered this is the basis of Solaris as well. I wonder if thats where Moore originally got the idea?

So Patrick, knowing how well Solaris ( a movie I happen to love also btw)did at the BO, I'd say you're probably right.
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#110
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11/26/06 at 9:44pm
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_Scott
It does seem to be more prevelant with episodic material. You can deviate for one ep to focus on the inner struggle of the main character, and then next week its back to the regularly scheduled wrestling matches. I think it could work for a single theatrical feature- but it would take plenty of thought and consideration.
I will say that when I first saw the Buffy ep, it packed a whallop for me- it really got across that the season was not just a 'reset' getting them out of an impossible corner, but a very considered continuation.
And even though the JLU ep was by neccessity not as deep, I still found it more affecting than SR.
Seeing the sacrifices that a hero has to make can be extremely moving- especially when the hero never comes out and tells anyone "see the sacrifices I'm making here"- and the idea of complete hapiness being the result of an induced delusion...
I just remembered this is the basis of Solaris as well. I wonder if thats where Moore originally got the idea?

So Patrick, knowing how well Solaris ( a movie I happen to love also btw)did at the BO, I'd say you're probably right.


Actually Paul, I like the idea of pitting Mr. Mytzptlx against Superman, because if nothing else its brings magic into the cinema world of Superman and that is something that has never been done before. But then again it would take a feat of magic to have Bryan Singer even consider Mytzptlx. I'm pretty sure Singer is going to go for a more intergalactic threat. Now whether it's General Zod, Brainiac, or Darkseid is anyone's guess. Magic is also good, because it is another obstacle that Superman really has to work hard to overcome and it's not boring old kryptonite again. Kryptonite has really gotten played out as of late.

I'm inclined to agree with Patrick, but I think Mytzptlx would be a harder sell to the studio heads who after witnessing Superman Returns crawl to the $200 million mark are probably looking more for a villain that can engage Superman in no holds barred superhero smack down thus requiring the use of heavy special effects, thus guaranteeing that butts will fill the theater seats.

Mytzptlx requires the use of Superman's mental prowess moreso than his physical prowess and to the studio heads that are flipping the bill for the sequel that may not translate into large profits. Then again a good director could pepper the film with really good action sequences and still retain the intense mental conflict that would result between Superman and Mytzptlx.
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#111
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11/27/06 at 5:32am
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

To continue with the Star Treks films analogy by Singer, SR #3 would the search/revival of someone who dies in #2, and then we get whales in SR #4, and finally we would get Myxpltzlk(sp) in SR #5. Haha.

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#112
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11/27/06 at 10:15am
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

I agree & disagree with both sides. I liked Singer's direction and casting. Just hated the story he used. The scenes with him saving the city and rescuing the airplane was total Supes. The rest of the story was a rehash/sequel to a 30 year old movie. Spacey would have been awesome as corporate Luther. And like I have said before. The return to Krypton, Richard & the kid should have been left for the last movie of this new remakes. It would have made the scenes at the end of the movie a great sendoff to the series.

Bring back John Doe! Or at least resolve the cliff-hanger with a 2hr movie or as an extra on a dvd release.

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#113
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11/28/06 at 5:03pm
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

I saw a different picture of 'Lois' in a magazine somewhere, and she looked oh so much better than she did in Superman. I think it's that hairstyle I didn't like and that didn't fit the character .

Re:Mytzptlx

Untill the Animated Series, I had no idea this character ever existed, and Gilbert G. was the perfect voice to bring him to life. He really did start to drive Supes off his rocker, and make him loose his calm. I think it would be a great story if Lex starts a scheme, and Mytzptlx pops in to undo every action that Supes throws at Lex, and see how long it takes Supes to figure out a solution..

That way you can show brain and brawn at work
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#114
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11/29/06 at 5:49am
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

"I think it's that hairstyle I didn't like and that didn't fit the character"

I think it does. While updating these characters for Returns Singer actually went backwards. Supermans suit resembles the old suit from the 50s with the small S and the high collar. Lois has more of a classic Hollywood scarlet look.
Some of the architecture is a throwback as well.
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#115
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12/4/06 at 5:21pm
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Geez, after watching the documentary You Will Believe that came with the Ultimate DVD Edition, I think i've come up with two of the most evil villains for Supes to fight in the next film, they are cruel, they are devious, they are underhanded...and they go by the name Salkind.
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#116
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12/4/06 at 6:19pm
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

John, this sounds interesting. Please elaborate.

Andres

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#117
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12/4/06 at 6:41pm
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres Munoz
John, this sounds interesting. Please elaborate.

It was a joke on my part, i'm referring of course to Alexander and Ilya Salkind, the producers of the Superman films, they were a couple of real hard-asses and they ended up firing Richard Donner from Superman II after giving him nothing but grief for the entire time he was involved with them.
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#118
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12/4/06 at 7:27pm
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Hammer!
It was a joke on my part, i'm referring of course to Alexander and Ilya Salkind, the producers of the Superman films, they were a couple of real hard-asses and they ended up firing Richard Donner from Superman II after giving him nothing but grief for the entire time he was involved with them.


On the ultimate set they might come off a little better than on that documentary, but I'm not sure. I still disagree with their reasoning for some of their choices they made with Superman 2, and they certainly don't help their side much when you look at how Superman III and Supergirl turned out. In all fairness, I guess they got their best opportunity to tell their side, and at least Illya and Donner have somewhat buried the hatchet.

To stay on topic, though I liked SR quite a lot, I can see why some people didn't, and I wish Singer the best with the sequel, and hope it's a little more accessible without dumbing it down in any way.
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#119
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12/4/06 at 8:11pm
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

After watching some of the discs from the Superman set, I'm hoping they modify the suit for the sequel. I was watching one of the documentaries on Disc 3 of STM, and the costume designer specifically mentioned how they tried to get the costume to make Reeve look as masculine as possible. I feel that with the smaller S emblem, which while truer to the original design, had the opposite effect. It's strange. For all the new fangled technology and design work they put into the new Returns suit, the old Reeve suit, as simple as it was, just looks so much better.

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#120
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12/5/06 at 4:17am
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Re: Superman Returns Sequel discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray H
After watching some of the discs from the Superman set, I'm hoping they modify the suit for the sequel. I was watching one of the documentaries on Disc 3 of STM, and the costume designer specifically mentioned how they tried to get the costume to make Reeve look as masculine as possible. I feel that with the smaller S emblem, which while truer to the original design, had the opposite effect. It's strange. For all the new fangled technology and design work they put into the new Returns suit, the old Reeve suit, as simple as it was, just looks so much better.
I'm on the opposite side of the fence where the costume is concerned. I just watched "Superman The Movie" and the Donner Cut of II, and I like the suit in "Returns" much better. To me Reeve's costume looks like a pair of PJs, while Routh's looks like it's a part of him and the colors seem less "goofy" somehow.

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