A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

Which is why I reference advance audio in my post because I never got into SACD/DVD-A, but I know you're into it. Anyhow, you and Adam have answered my question so I'll just wait for the update instead of buying another player that I think is unnecessary as far as my setup and viewing capacity.




Crawdaddy

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

Understood. I think that's a good decision for your situation.

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

RAF,
Have you hooked up your new toy yet? I have, but I'm still experiencing some HDMI handshake problems between the VP50 and my audio processor. I have everything working right now, but HDMI can be a royal pain in the butt.




Crawdaddy

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

CD-
What happens when you hook up the source directly to the VP50? Is it only when you loop it through the audio processor that you have the problem?

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

That's how I first figured out I had a problem, going from the source to VP50 to the audio processor and then to television. I then bypassed the audio processor all together and went without sound from the source to the VP50 then to the television, no HDMI problems whatsoever. At this time, I go from the source to the processor then to the VP50 and finally to the television. That way, I have the processor as a throughput component before the VP50.

Edit: I am still experiencing some HDMI errors with my latest confirguration, in particular, the HD DVD player. I keep getting HDCP errors on the audio processor, thus, it stops play on the HD DVD player due to the HDMI signal being interrupted. I'm having far less errors with the Samsung. I'm still experimenting and will continue to do so until I solve this problem.




Crawdaddy

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

Crawdaddy,

Yes, I switched out my VP30 and put the VP50 into my system a few days ago. However, I don't have my HDMI compatible audio processor yet (it should be here in a week or two) so I can't comment on any HDMI issues between it and my VP50. When I get it (the Denon 3806) I'll let you know if there are any HDMI issues.

I can comment on a couple of other things. My Toshiba XA1 HD-DVD player exhibits the same behavior as yours does. If you remove the HDMI output path from the Toshiba (like by switching the source you send to the display on the VP50 to a source other than the Toshiba) then the HD-DVD player stops when it no longer senses an HDMI pathway. This has nothing to do with the way that the VP50 is handling HDMI and is due entirely to the player itself. I verified this at CEDIA with industry people from both Toshiba and HDMI. And it's quite frustrating because if you don't bookmark the spot on the HD-DVD you were watching before you switch (like to check the status of a Football game) then you have to go through the trouble of finding the point on the HD-DVD you left off. This can be a royal pain and just another thing that I don't like about Toshiba's first generation HD-DVD implementation (but that's a topic for another thread.) Since your Samsung Blu-ray player has fewer problems I can only surmise that this is because the Samsung follows the HDMI guidelines more closely (and this is has absolutely nothing to do with HD-DVD/Blu-ray parameters in case anyone is curious).

I've heard some horror stories about HDMI and audio processors (which one do you have, by the way, and how old is it?) and the great majority of these issues have to do with the audio processor not complying with HDMI guidelines (or only partially implementing them). Like I said, my Lexicon MC-8 doesn't have any HDMI video inputs or outputs so I can't actually talk about this yet based on experience. (I currently am sending all video directly to the VP50 and it works fine (except for things caused by components like the XA-1). But I'll let you know as soon as the new equipment is in my system. Adam went to a seminar where a lot was said about HDMI "compatible" versus HDMI "compliant" components. There's a wide variation among manufacturers regarding HDMI implementation and this can be a real bear to sort out. I can say, based on my experience with the VP30 (and now the VP50) that the DVDO products are among the best in playing HDMI "by the rules" so I really think the source of the HDMI problems is not the VP50. (The team that worked on the DVDO product line includes Jano Banks who is the co-patent holder of the HDMI technology.)

I hope you can sort out all of this and identify exactly which components are guilty of disrupting the HDMI/HDCP chain. It can be frustrating but at least the industry is aware of the situation and is responding to it. Currently I'm working with some HDMI switches (a Gefen and an ACCELL) that work some of the time with HDMI but still have some serious handshaking issues that requires me to go through hoops when sending the HDMI video to my projector (the HP works fine). I'll be beta testing a new HDMI repeater/distribution switch in a month or so that promises to solve this issue and I'll have more to say about that once I get a chance to test it out.

Sorry that I can't be any more specific regarding your problems at this time but keep asking Adam and myself and we'll try to narrow this down a bit more. As I have been saying for a long time (and have taken some heat for on some other HT venues) - HDMI still has a long way to go before it is fully "plug and play." But it is getting better than even one year ago.

Switching the topic a bit - what are your initial impressions of the VP50, what it does and how it does it? Is it too early to tell as you work out your HDMI issues or do you have some impressions to share?

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

RAF,
I wasn't blaming the VP50 for those problems, I'm just pointing out that I am having some HDMI problems. As far as my audio processor, I have the Yamaha-2600 that came out back in the spring. It's only a temporary component for my main HT setup because I actually bought it for my bedroom HT.

I haven't a lot of time to play around with the VP50 yet, but the latest Batman film looked fantastic as did the SD DVD of X-Men 3 upconverted. However, for some reason I had the SD DVD of "Vera Cruz" the Cooper/Lancaster western laying around, my god that dvd's video presentation is so full of film grain, I couldn't hardly watch it.

More to come as I play around with the settings.





Crawdaddy

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

Understood, CD. I wasn't sure whether you were blaming the VP50 for the HDMI problems, but you've cleared that up for me. What you are experiencing with HDMI are some of the bumps in the road that we have to overcome until all manufacturers standardize their HDMI implementations. At CEDIA 2006 Adam and I talked to some people who have created certification standards for HDMI. Hopefully this will sort things out. I don't know enough about the Yamaha and any HDMI issues so I can't pinpoint it for you any more than that. Incidently, I'm treating my new Denon 3806 A/V receiver the same way as you are treating your Yamaha - a temporary solution as the HDMI audio thing (1.3, etc. etc.) sorts itself out. Once the new HDML 1.3 (or beyond) pre/pros make their appearance the 3806 will go elsewhere in my home as a very nice 7.1 receiver.

I think the "component" approach (separate video processor) helps us in the HDMI audio transition period so we don't overspend on audio processors which will soon be out of date for the main HT.

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

I recently received a PM with a question that I believe might be of general interest so I'm re-posting it here to share. (I prefer the forum to private messaging where applicable). Here's the gist of the message:

-------------------------------------------------------------

That's a very broad question and not one that can be answered in a sentence or two. Did you see the thread on the whole concept that I started? That thread contains a lot of details regarding video processors in general and some thoughts on my DVDO VP30 (now a VP50). A while back I wrote a piece on my VP30 (you can see it here) and what I said about the VP30 also goes for the VP50. The VP50 adds some additional goodies but the basic premise doesn't change. I just haven't gotten around to writing an update on the VP50 since I've been extremely busy.

Before you rush out to get a video processor you need to ask yourself a few questions. If you have a 1080p set that offers 1080p native input then you might be a candidate for a video processor (any brand and model). But if your 1080p set doesn't accept 1080p then a lot of what the VP does is defeated. However, I think your basic question involves having a way to get multiple HDMI inputs for your one HDMI input set, right? If so, then the choice would be an HDMI switcher, not a full blown video processor. It's much, much less expensive and if you choose a good one (one that follows all the HDMI/HDCP rules) then it will do the job.

One word of advice. If you skimp on the HDMI switch you will probably be sorry since if HDMI is not done right you are bound to have signal and handshaking issues. You can buy a switch for under $100 but you probably will get burned (unless you are extremely lucky.) The switch that I recommend can be seen here. It's a bit pricier than some switches but not exhorbinant and it was designed by one of the inventors of HDMI.


I hope that this helps.

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

While I haven't used that switch in my system, I saw it at CEDIA and the build quality was spectacular.

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

I recently received an e-mail from one of our members, Joe S. In it he related a personal experience using my "component" approach and (with his permission) I'd like to share it with you. It represents a real world situation and provides a bit of insight into the whole process which might be informative to others and perhaps stimulate some additional discussion on this topic.

Here's the e-mail:

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

And Joe also provided some follow-up information which I failed to include in the previous message. Here it is FYI:

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

So I've been having lots of audio dropouts passing all the sound inputs through the VP30 to an Outlaw 950. All inputs have these dropouts where only the DTivo box ever had any before, so it has something to do with the VP30. I have video proceeding via HDMI cable to the HDTV and a digital coax carrying the audio to the 950.

Any ideas? I can't find any audio setting within the DVDO menus to try and tweak it. Any thoughts are welcome.

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

My suggestion would be to only use the VP30 for your video connections and use your pre/pro for audio. In other words, keep the video connections as you now have them, but don't send any audio through the VP30 to the 950. That's what I did with both my Lexicon MC-8 and, currently, my Denon 3806. There is really no reason to use the VP30 as an audio device. Even if you want to synch audio to video you can use the video delay settings on the VP30 to line up with any audio synch problems with the video (i.e. to synch audio and video you only have to adjust one of these, not both.)

I'm not really sure why you are getting audio dropouts from the VP30/950 combination? The fact that you have so many extra audio wires in order to put the VP30 into the audio loop invites audio dropouts. The more cables, the more chance for a bad one.

Did I interpret your question correctly? If not, please let me know. Hope this all works out. Also, another source of audio questions regarding the DVDO products can probably be found on the DVDO site itself. FAQ's and contacting them directly will probably get you some answers (if it's not a faulty cable).

Keep us posted.

P.S. Another thought just occurred to me. You're not trying to extract audio from an HDMI cable connect via the VP30, are you? The HDMI connections in the VP30 are version 1.1. While they support full 1080p for the video, I'd be willing to bet that v1.1 HDMI has some audio issues. Stay with the plan that has HDMI for video and digital coax/optical cables for audio directly to and from the 950.

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

Joe-
I have heard a few other complaints about the VP30 and audio dropouts. As I understand it DVDO is looking into the problem. I would contact their tech support department and report the problem.

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

Just found this excellent thread, and I am working through this myself over the last few months.

I've heard more then a few complaints about the VP50 and I am leery of spending that much to simply deinterlace 1080i for a 1080P crt pj. I am going to give a Bluray/HD DVD htpc a go. Today's hiccup is the newly acquired Bluray pc burner warning that it might drop frames on high bitrate AV1 as mentioned in the warranty registration area. No matter which way I turn, or head, there's always a speed bump, usually an expensive one. Seems these days, it *IS* too much to ask an expensive product work as promised.

Adam, you mentioned no external sources with a htpc. The excellent, but now discontinued, Immersive Holo3Dgraph could accept (and switch between) SDI, component and s-video inputs (limited to 480i due to pci bus bandwith though).

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

As I mentioned in the original article, the model that I am proposing is not limited to one specific brand of video processor but focuses on the idea of keeping the video processing in a separate, easily upgradable module regardless of the brand. There are several very nice choices for video processors besides DVDO. For what it's worth my experiences with first the VP30 and now the VP50 have been excellent so far. I should explain that I'm still keeping all audio separate from video (i.e. I send audio directly to my pre/pro and not through the VP30/50 in any fashion) so perhaps I've been insulated from any possible audio issues. And this way I don't have to worry about which version of HDMI goes into the VP50 since all versions support full 1080p video.

In fact, any issues I'm having with HDMI seem to be with the peripherals (switches in particular) and their inability to handshake properly. This sometimes causes them to lose or fail to acquire a proper HDMI video signal - specifically when I'm sending that signal out to more than one display (switchable) as I do in my HT with my Runco projector and my HP 1080p DLP RPM. (I call the resulting picture a "poltergeist screen." )I'm currently working on a potential solution to all this and should be in a position in a month or so (depending on the delivery of a new HDMI repeater I'm beta testing) to say much more about this with real world experiences from a variety of vendors.

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

I would be wary too. The difference a video processor makes going from 480i -> 1080i(p) is dramatic and worth every penny. Going from 1080i -> 1080p would be slight if noticable at all IMHO. Not saying you want to dump the processor idea, but if your sources are already hi-def and clean, you might be on the scale of paying more money for lesser improvement.

RAF - Yes, I routed everything through the 950 this weekend and left the VP30 to strictly video processing duty. No, I was using a Toslink cable in addition to the HDMI cable for DVD video. It all seems to be fine now.

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

Glad to hear this (no pun intended ).

Take care.

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

Joe-
There is some beta firmware available from DVDO that addresses some audio issues:

This pre-release version of our software contains the following new features:

PReP™ (Progressive Re-Processing)

PReP is a video processing technology, which is exclusive to Anchor Bay, that converts a progressive signal to its original interlaced format so that it can be subsequently deinterlaced by Anchor Bay's Precision Deinterlacing. With PReP, in addition to performing an outstanding job deinterlacing interlaced formats, an iScan VP50 can now improve a previously poorly deinterlaced progressive format. PReP works with 480p, 576p, 1080p/50 and 1080p/60.
This software version also addresses and corrects the following bugs:

Fixed intermittent audio drop-outs due to sources with high-jitter (completely new audio logic).
Added HDMI Output Audio Mute routine to avoid “pops” and noise bursts while audio format is being determined.
Changed HDMI output configuration routine to remove potential of audio output lock-up in the HDMI transmitter under certain conditions.
Fixed failure of Discrete IR commands
Fixed Line-Offset error after switching from High-def Component video (720p or 1080i) to HDMI input (480i-60Hz or 576i-50Hz).
Corrected Info-Screen “No Signal” message when audio input is Analog, and “Unknown” message when audio over HDMI is compressed audio (will now display “Non-PCM”).
Corrected 1080p-24Hz output timings.

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

This is an excellent thread!

I am on the verge of a HDTV purchase and this component approach sounds logical, money saving in the long term, but expensive in the short term. I'm wondering whether this can be done "on the cheap" for now, and improved as time goes on.

I currently have an old DVD player, no HDMI outputs. I plan on buying a 46 - 56" HDTV in the next 6 months.

If I ensure the HDTV accepts native 1080p and the new DVD player outputs native 480i via HDMI, is there a low budget VP that I could put between them that would be worth the money?

Also, I can save money by getting a 720p HDTV rather than a 1080p, freeing up cash for a VP. Which is the bigger improvement, 1080p or 720p via VP?

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

It just occurred to me the HTPC may be my answer but I am hesitant to go there unless it is as simple as making my PC HT dedicated and loading some new cards. I'm not about to do anything more than that.

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

The difference between 720P by 1080P depends on your seating distance. That having been said If you can afford it get 1080P. I wouldn't buy 720P to save $ for a video processor.

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

Adam - Yep, I'm also looking into the distance calculators and it looks like 720p will be fine if I get a 46" inch and 1080p will be better if I go 56".

I guess that improvement from a VP may be more subtle than going from 720p to 1080p.

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

Another message sent to DVDO with no response.

Here is the question:

I am planning on buying a VP-30 or VP-50 very soon, but need to know what cable to buy to connect to my projector.

My LCD front projector has only analog connections (no HDMI or DVI) and has a native rate of 1366x768. I have confirmed with the projector manufacturer that it can accept the native rate from a scaler. The projector can either accept a component (YPbPr) or RGBHV connection. If I want to feed the projector the native rate of 1366x768 do I need to connect via RGBHV? Or can I connect via YPbPr and transfer the output rate of 1366x768 from the iScan?

I have looked at the Owner’s Manual and it is a little bit confusing. Table 1 in the VP-30 manual (as amended) for analog connection requirements for 1366x768 as RGBHV; does this mean that an RGBHV connection is required to use the 1366x768 output of the VP-30?

Thanks,
Mike

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

You can do either, but I would pull a RGBHV and an HDMI (for future). You can either pull a single minicable with 5 conductors, or pull 5 RG6 cables (just make sure they are the same length).

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

In this world of separate video and audio processing, how will you handle the separation of video from audio as soon as you have two (or more) HDMI source components? Most sources have one HDMI output, right? That output will either have to go to the video processor or the audio processor. If you run them all into the video processor, then somehow you have to get the audio from the video processor over to the audio processor. However, don't most video processors only have one HDMI output that needs to go to the display? On the other hand, if you run all the sources into the audio processor first and then from there to the video processor, aren't all of the multiple inputs on your video processor a waste?

I must be missing something...

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

The correct order of connectivity is to pass all the HDMI signals into the receiver or pre/pro first, let that device extract all the pertinent audio information to send to the speakers and then pass the video signal unaltered to the video processor. There is absolutely no need to have a source provide more than one HDMI output since everything goes to the audio processor first. For "legacy" devices (those without HDMI capabilities) you still treat audio and video as before. Audio (via toslink, RCA or analog inputs) goes to the receiver and video goes to the video processor via DVI, component, S-Video or composite as offered/needed. (You can still send the video through your receiver first especially if you want to take advantage of on-screen menu functions but that's up to your specific needs and preferences.)

You do bring up an interesting point and a bit of a paradox in my particular set-up. Yes, if we lived in an "All HDMI World" then multiple HDMI inputs in a video processor would be superfluous. Everything would plug into the audio processor first and then one HDMI cable would go to the video processor. The biggest need for HDMI inputs would be in the audio processor. Ironically, while my VP (DVDO VP-50) has four HDMI inputs, my audio processor (DENON 3806) has only two. This should be the other way around. You can rest assured than my next audio processor will contain at least four HDMI inputs. However, at least the four HDMI inputs in my video processor serve a purpose. A couple of my components (specifically a Dish Network ViP622 HD-DVR and a Denon 2930ci Standard DVD player) offer HDMI output where there are no advanced audio codecs like TrueHD involved. To take some of the load off of my audio processor's HDMI inputs, I connect the HDMI outputs of these two components directly to my video processor and connect the audio through more traditional means to my audio processor. (Actually, I'm using proprietary "DenonLinkIII" between my 2930ci and the 3806 to provide stellar direct digital performance connecting those two units - especially evident when listening to SACD and DVD-A). In other words, the "extra" HDMI inputs on my video processor are being put to good use for now.

I would hope that future audio processors would greatly increase the number of HDMI inputs. At that point the number of HDMI inputs on video processors could be scaled back a bit. And I'd also like to see video processors start including more than one HDMI output since I have two displays in my HT (RPM and FP). That's something that is promised by some manufacturers in new models and I hope is adopted by all of them.

The use of an HDMI switch to provide multiple output is a major concern of mine right now because it doesn't involve simple switching. You need to use a repeater, not a switch or you risk a myriad of HDMI handshaking issues. I'm working on something right now which will soon be in the beta stage and I'm going to write it up once the project yields results. But that's another topic for another time and a little off the subject here. Stay tuned....

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

Thank-you RAF for an excellent article and thread. As someone who never got into audio separates, a separates approach to video may be just what I'm looking for. In 2000, I bought a HDTV which only has component inputs and a maximum display capacity of 1080i. It would seem a better use of funds to get a HD-DVD/Blu-Ray player and a quality video processor rather than a new display.

Re: A New Approach to Components in a Digital World - Something to think about

Thank you, Karim. I'm glad that you found this information helpful.

The advantage of a component approach to audio and video is that it accommodates a wide variety of needs and is extremely flexible in terms of future upgrading. However, to be fair there are some people who prefer the "one box" solution, minimizing connections and (to them) complexities. I can appreciate their position on this matter and am not suggesting that one approach is better than another. In my opinion components allow you to modify existing equipment (like in your case) to take advantage of emerging technologies without having to start all over each time. Of course, some people like to do just that.

Freedom of choice.