Paradigm 20's v 60's

I'm after some advice on which model paradigms to buy. Currently I have a 5 medium quality speakers running off a Nad 752 (which I've had no problems with). I'd like to retain the 752 for now, but replace the two fronts with some very good sounding stereo speakers for my music. Eventually I'll replace all speakers and get a bigger amp (like the NAD 773).

After a lot of research, I've narrowed it down to paradigm 20's v.3, or paradigm 60's v.3. The 60's are exactly twice the price of the 20's, and will exhaust the budget for now.

I've listened to both, and to my ear, I couldn't detect much difference in the mids and highs, but I noticed the fuller bass in the 60's. I also much prefer the look of the 60's, as my lounge is medium/large and the 20's are going to look fairly ordinary in the middle of that room. The advantage of the 20's would seem to be the 'bang for buck' and as I'd have cash left over, I could buy a good sub to go with them, which would work out slightly less than the 60's by themselves.

What I'd like advice on, is whether the 20's with good sub will outperform the 60's (with or without a sub) and also whether the Nad 752, rated at 150w at 8 ohms in two channel mode, is going to be able to drive the 60's as an interim solution.

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

The 20's with a good sub will blow the 60's, by themselves, out of the water. What subs or sub were you looking at?

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

Comparable quality/price to a HSU VTF 2

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

I had an HSU VTF-2, a very solid performer. Deffinetly the better way to go. I just wanted to be sure you weren't getting a Paradigm PS series sub or something, because those are not worth the money. You may also consider looking into the SVS subs like the PB-10 NSD. It should go deeper than the VTF-2 and people rave about it.

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

I've heard the SVS is good, but I'm not really evaluating Subs right now. Speaker choice is the first consideration.

If I bought the 60's, eventually I would add a sub, so I guess it would be fairer to ask whether the 60 + sub is a better combo than the 20 + sub, in a strict musical sense. (Unfortunately I'm not able to listen to them in that set up, so I have to rely on other's advice)
I guess the real question is, assuming the sub used is the same, is the 20 going to outperform the 60 on the mid's and highs?

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

The 20's are going to sound tighter, mostly dew to the smaller enclosure. I have heard from a few people the 20's are easier to soundstage and have a much better presentation. Now of coarse they won't beat the 60's on the bass part, but with a sub it will not matter anyway. Also not that many people now set the internal crossover of the receiver to 80Hz and send the rest to the sub for the optimum sound. So the extra bass the 60's have seem will not really be utilized in an optimumal set-up. If I had to choose between the two and they were hypothetically the same price, I think I would get the 20's.

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

If you use acoustic treatments and careful placement the 60's will give you a slight improvment in the bass region around at the crossover point.

If placement options are limited and you're not using room treatments, I would go with 20s becuase they will be easier to place because of size.

The midrange and treble between the two are very,very close to each other.

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

40's? happy medium? I want to upgrade soon from my monitors to a full studio setup!

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

To me, the 40's aren't neccessarily a good choice, based on the above advice they won't sound better or look better than the 20's +sub, and they cost more.

I found this user review of the Studio 60 v.2 which said:

" If I were to purchase again, I think I would go with the Paradigm studio 20's, which are small bookshelfs that have the same tweeter and midrange of the more expensive 60s and lack the 6 inch bass woofer but which are $200 to $400 less the the 60s. I like the 60s immensely, but with my very healthy 15 inch Def Tech sub, I don't think I need any of the Paradigm's lower response, the def tech sub seems to cover it all already."

Which seems to agree with the above posts. Damn! I really wish it was the other way around i.e. 60's noticeably better than the 20's, cos I really really want them to sound better, but I guess they don't

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

They don't sound better than the 20s, but they ARE more sensitive and do extend a little lower, so they far more easily fill a room than the 20s do. Given a choice, I would go with the 40s every time if it was a medium to large room. 20s with a good sub is still a formidable combo too though.

If these are what you are looking at, I'd also throw into the mix, the Ascend CMT-340.

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

Thanks for the advice, I thought more people would come out in support of the 60's, strange that that's not the case.

On further analysis, the 40's do sound like an option, although like most people say, once you pay for stands you may as well buy the 60's.

If the sub paired with the 60's is going to be carrying less of the load, then do I need to get as good a sub as I would pair with the 20's?

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

I use 40s for my main L&R speakers. They have a smidgen more presence in the bass region around the crossover point. I would be happy with the 20s that I use for my surronds for my mains too.

BTW the stands the dealer will try and sepp with the 40s are way overpriced. They make another stand they well with the Monitor line that works just as well. There are a lot of <$100 stands available that work just fine.

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

There are much better stands than what Paradigm offers for less than what Paradigm dealers rake you for.... DEFINITELY the stands they offer for the Studio line are not worth the price IMO. With the Monitor line, I can see stands being a factor (5s vs 7s), but not the Studios.

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

The 40's have always been the jewel of the studio line. And I'm not just saying that because I own 2 of them.


Well, maybe I am.

I do know that I have traded in studio 20's and was never a big fan of the 60's.

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

[quote=Mickey Brown]The 40's have always been the jewel of the studio line. And I'm not just saying that because I own 2 of them.
QUOTE]

I agree 100% with this. The 40's are wonderful. IMO the 100s are great too but if you are using a sub there is no point. I almost bought the 40's before I discovered Ascend Acoustics.

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

Here's a vote for the 60s. The 20s + a good sub will beat the 60's by themselves, but a 60s plus the same sub will blow away the 20s/sub combo, IMO. That you have a medium/large room tilts the table even more to the 60s + sub combo.

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

OK yesterday I pulled the trigger on the 20's - main reason was bang for buck, and the lack of convincing reasons to buy the 60's. Also, I discovered that, to my horror, I actually had the NAD 742, not the 752 as I'd thought. Doh! So I figured 50w per channel was not going to do the 60's any favours.
My impressions so far are that, so far as looks go, the 20's in light cherry on Premier S22 stands look pretty good, they don't seem 'lost' in the room like I thought they would.
As far as sound goes, its great, beautiful listening, but I think there is definitely a lack of 'oomph'. The sound doesn't have a lot of impact, which I put down to room size and having lots of soft furnishings. Its fine for movies, when I'm seated in the lounge is when the speakers really shine, but from the far side of the room the sound doesn't have much immediacy. I'm hoping that when the sub arrives next week this will help fill the room (plus enable me to set the mains to 'small' which I'm sure will help). Otherwise, the 20's will get moved to rears duty sooner than planned.

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

How big is your room, Johnny?

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

Make sure you spend time tweaking the placement of the speakers relative to you, as that can play a HUGE role as well.

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

The room is 7 metres long, by 4 metres wide. Its a lounge/dining room, carpeted. I've got the 20's at one end, and while I'm their end of the room they sound good, but further away, at the dining end, they need to be turned up quite loud to have 'presence'.

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

Ah, okay....that's about as big a room as you'd want to go with the 20s, assuming it doesn't open up into other areas of the house with lots of space to fiill. The 40s probably would have sounded a tad fuller, but once you add a sub to the 20s you might be fine. I've just learned first hand how a large and open room can eat up a bookshelf speaker.

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

My friend has 20s in a MASSIVE room, and with a sub, they do fine. He is however, powering them with a Marantz 9300V (140wpc).

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

Do fine as in sound as good as they would in a smaller room? I learned about bookshelf speakers in a large room the hard way....I first had monitor 5s in a room that was pretty big in terms of two dimensions, but the ceilings were only 8'. When I bought a new house and moved my system into a room that was about the same size in two dimensions but with ceilings that ran up as high as 18', all of a sudden they became very thin sounding. I had to jump into Monitor 11s in order to feel they was balance again. I went right into studio/100s after that, so I never tried the 20s in that room, so maybe they're a better speaker than I give them credit for. I've just become a big believer in matching the speaker to the size of the room.

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

His room is approx 30x40 with 10ft ceilings (kitchen, dining, living area all one big open room). They don't have the kick that a larger speaker would in this room, but I was honestly surprised at how good they sounded - I recommended 40s at least to him, but he went with the 20s + 470 for size reasons, and they did quite well at filling in sound at the listening position. Other parts of the room the sound is more of an echo. Front stage is not 100% cohesive due to the size of the room, but it is better than I expected. They don't seem to struggle I guess is what I am saying.

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

That's impressive....that's a big ass room! I guess it says a lot for the quality of those drivers and/or the overall construction of the speakers. I'd be interested to hear them w/out the sub and center in that size of a room....I wonder to what degree they'd out-gun something like a Monitor 5 in terms of sounding coherent, you know?

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

I've owned the 5s too, and had 20s and 40s in my room. The 20s with plenty of power will give the 5s a run for their money They aren't as sensitive, but they can handle more power.

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

That reminds me, John, don't you have a GR-Research system? I've been considering picking up a couple of Danny's monitors for surrounds since DeVore Fidelity doesn't have their on-walls out yet. I don't know if you've herad the DeVore stuff, but I'd call them very transparent and tonally balanced. Do you have any input on how the GR stuff might work as surrounds? I was thinking either four of his AV1s or maybe a pair of AV1s and a pair of the AV1-RS for the back if I go 7.1.

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

I haven't heard the RSs, but I had A/V-1s for a while for surrounds and I was very happy with them. I have all A/V-2s now. The RSs work by firing upward, so it will depend on your room if the will work for you as rears. I don't really have a rear wall, amd tje ceiling is sloped, so I can't use the RSs in my current setup.

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

John, check this out and tell me what you think, if you don't mind I found this guy over at the GR forum and it seems as though he's doing exactly what I want to do. He has Merlins up front and no center, and then four of the RS's in back.....I could do mine exactly the way this guy's doing his....from what he says, it sounds pretty damn good!

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/i...7080#msg287080

Re: Paradigm 20's v 60's

pretty dog.