Leave it to beaver season 3?

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

OK, 234 LOL. Yes, they are unedited. Each episode is 24 minutes, including the entire ending credits......and with a Netflix device you can get them streamed to your television.

Here's the link for the season six episodes with links on the referened page for the other five seasons:

Netflix Online Movie Rentals - Rent DVDs, Classic Films to DVD New Releases

I wonder why a few of the episodes (i.e., Wally's License from Season 6) are not available because, according to Netflix, "some episodes of this series are available only on disc", when none of seasons 3-6 are available on DVD. Opinions?

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

24 minutes is a little short for the 1960s. Even 1970s shows make it into the mid-25 minute range. It's still better than what syndication/TV Bland would offer.

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

Until 1965 or so, thirty-minute episodes ran 26 minutes, including the opening and closing credits. There were three minutes of commercials during the show, and one minute of commercials and "station identification" before the next show began.

So those Beavers are cut.

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

Are you satisfied that the DVD versions are complete?

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

I don't know, I haven't seen the DVDs yet.

However:

Sitcoms Online's original review of Season 1 says there are 40 episodes (39 plus the pilot) with a running time of 17 hrs. 20 mins.

17 hrs. 20 mins. is 1,040 mins., and 1,040 divided by 40 is 26 exactly! Sounds perfect.

The running times are given for each episode, and they seem to hover around 25:45.

For Season 2, they say 1,009 minutes for 39 episodes, which comes to 25.87 minutes for each episode.

Again, individual running times are given, and they are mostly around the 25:50 mark.

So I feel confident that the official season sets are uncut episodes.

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

Thanks for the info. Have you or others ever compared the uncut versions to the edited versions to see what was cut out? Seems like it woud be diffiuclt to chop off two minutes without noticing a lack of continuity in the show, unless you just remove the tag (closing scene). And then I have heard that some syndicated shows actually "speed up" the film to get more content broadcast. That really seems bizarre. How does that go unnoticed?

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

I haven't seen the DVDs either. But I have shows on tape, laserdisc, DVD and 16mm film spanning nearly 6 decades of TV, and the rule of thumb for running time I use based on decades is:

1950s and 1960s: A half-hour show should be at least 25:30, and an hour show should be at least 50:00.
Early-mid 1970s: A half hour show should be at least 25:00, and an hour show at least 49:00. From here on in, half-hour shows that aired at the second half of the hour may be shorter due to network news breaks.
Late 1970s/Early 1980s: A half hour show should be at least 24:30 and an hour show at least 48:00
Mid-Late 1980s: A half hour show should be at least 24:00 and an hour show at least 48:00
Early 1990s: A half hour show should be at least 23:00 and an hour show should be at least 46:00
Late 1990s: A half hour show should be at least 22:00 and an hour show at least 44:00
2000s: A half hour show will probably be about 22:00 and an hour show about 42:00.

These are for network shows, and there are exceptions, minor fluctuations and nuances that some shows may have (Fox, for instance, was able to get around restrictions on commercial time in their early days, as all of the early Married with Children and The Simpsons episodes hover around 23 minutes). But for 1963, anything under 25 minutes should send up a red flag.

Some syndicated shows use time compression in addition to cuts because they think nobody cares. But almost everyone who watched "Alice" on TNN noticed the time compression. Whether they did this to Leave it to Beaver I couldn't tell you. I wouldn't put anything past TV Bland.

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

Let's see. How can I put this?

It doesn't go unnoticed by some; it does go unnoticed by others.

What's the difference between those who notice, and those who don't notice?

I'm in kind of a bad mood right now, so I better not say.

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

The difference is that those who notice have seen an episode, can recall all the scenes, notice something missing, and are aware that syndicated shows can be edited. What I wondering is if anybody can recall scenes that were cut during edit.

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

I've watched several of the Netflix LITB episodes, and while I've always thought that there must be something missing because of the running time being short of 25 1/2 to 26 minutes, I can't see the cuts myself. I've watched the show consistently for about 35 years now, but since I wasn't around for the original airings I just don't have enough memories to be able to discern what is missing.

Seems likely that the Netflix episodes are missing something, but it's beyond me to figure out what it is.

On another front, while I have been hoping that Shout would pick up this series (since they are working on Universal shows right now), I knew they probably wouldn't. The feeling is very strong within the industry that this show majorly, and I do mean majorly, tanked when it was released a couple of years ago. I remember asking Brian Ward at Shout about the show on multiple occasions, and I also believe I asked another exec that frequents this board as well, about the sales numbers and to a man the feeling is that LEAVE IT TO BEAVER was just a horrible seller. Knowing that Brian and Shout had that type of info on LITB (which they naturally would) there really wasn't a lot of hope for this show being picked up. It's a big shame and to be honest I just can't understand why this classic did so bad (other than overpricing). But it did and now studios like Shout are probably a little gun shy about giving it another shot. Don't know that for sure (that they are gun shy), but it only seems logical based on what I've read about how poorly Seasons 1 & 2 sold.


Gary "getting the remaining seasons of this show out on dvd is going to be a major long shot at this point - once you get labeled as a poor seller every one is understandably cautious about continuing the series" O.

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

No, I was specifically answering your question as to how episodes that have been speeded up can go unnoticed.

You don't have to ever have seen an episode to be able to notice that, especially if Ward Cleaver sounds like Alvin the Chipmunk. (I haven't seen a "Beaver" that bad, but I've seen some other shows that were!)

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

Maybe that's the exact reason. I didn't get either season at first, but I snapped them both up when they were 50% off.

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

In addition to the perception of overpricing, let's not forget that they were also released by Universal on DVD-18 discs right in the teeth of the worst period of problems with Universal DVD-18 discs. That's really what killed it for me.

I would have been been willing to suffer the price if I knew the discs would work properly. But to pay that much for discs that seemed to have a high risk of being faulty seemed crazy, especially given the difficulty of returning them. Did Universal ever publicly acknowledge the DVD-18 problem?

Jay

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

Gary: You seem to be making some very definitive statements about LitB sales--and Shout's intentions--yet your own background information to back them up seems thin based on the way you present the material.

For example, you make it a definite that industry insiders say the show "tanked" on DVD and was a "horrible seller" that "did so bad." Yet you describe your direct knowledge of this as (emphasis mine):



Since you don't seem sure about your second source, it sounds like most of your information is coming from a lone Shout! executive. And, IIRC, you had said Brian was pretty non-committal when it came to answering your questions about sales figures for the show. I don't recall ANY real discussion/knowledge of sales figures of LitB in this thread (as much as we all wish there were some).

Then, even though it seems like most of your info is coming from a Shout! pipeline, you admit that you are drawing your own conclusions about their hesitancy to pick up the product--and don't really know for certain how they feel about the idea.

So, unless I am misinterpreting what you posted, your point doesn't seem exactly clear.

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

Mike, if you can get Universal or anyone else to give you exact sales figures on the 2 seasons of LiTB, have at it. My personal experience has been that the studios are very hesitant to make those figures public, but if you can do it be my guest. Mr. Ward may be the only person I can specifically name, but that's because he was answering my question on a public forum so it was there for all to see. I'm not comfortable naming names with people I've only PM'd or emailed. That's not kosher in my book so I'm not doing it. I have, some time ago, corresponded with a second exec (from a different studio) who also mentioned the low sales figures. Then there's my memory, which admittedly might be faulty, that an exec who posts here mentioned low sales for LiTB as well. But since I can't be sure of that one, I'm being vague. But you make it seem like I'm just floating major rumors out there. I'm not doing that. Since I don't have access to the sales data, I can only go by what I'm told. And while I can't say I've heard from a dozen different sources, the couple I have heard from seem to indicate the sales were not what Universal wanted.

Yes, I'm postulating about Shout and their feelings on LiTB. I freely admit that. But I do believe my postulation is based on solid facts. If you disagree, be my guest. And note: I'm not saying that I know for a fact the sales were low. I'm simply saying I've heard that from people that I believe would know.


Gary "hey, I hope Shout comes out tomorrow with an announcement for LiTB Season 3 - I'll be the happiest guy here if that happens, I'm just not too confident we will see it happen" O.

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

Mike, if I said Brian was not forthcoming about sales figures in this thread I probably said that before he answered some questions on the Shout board. Because he was very blunt about the sales being way below Universal's expectations for Season 1 and then only half that for Season 2. He specifically said he doubted Universal would ever release a 3rd Volume. At the time (before Shout licensed out the Uni series we are seeing now), Brian didn't think Shout would have a good shot at getting that series on loan from Universal. This is all on Shout's public BB. If you want to call Brian's comments into question, go for it. Personally, even if I hadn't heard from someone else in a private exchange, I still would have believed Brian if he said the sales were poor. But again, if you doubt his word then I guess there's nothing I can do.


Gary "things do change though, so perhaps Shout or Universal will give LiTB another shot sometime soon" O.

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

Ok, I've heard from another person in the know that Season 1 didn't do that bad. Not huge numbers, but not bad for a classic b/w show. Season 2 did do half of Season 1 so, as Brian stated on the Shout board, it's understandable why Universal would be hesitant to continue. But at least I've now got a different perspective on the numbers for the LiTB sets so I'll gladly rescind the comments that the show was a "horrible" seller. That is probably in the eye of the beholder, to some extent. But since Brian himself felt the numbers were not all that good from Universal's perspective I'll still say that while it's only my opinion, it would be logical to assume Shout wouldn't be banging the doors down to pick up that particular series from Universal. But I hope I'm wrong on that one. I want to see the show out on dvd badly.

Gary "hope this clarifies things for you, Mike" O.

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

Gary, I'd like to respectfully point out that the conversation you had with Brian Ward at Shout!'s message boards was pretty much a year ago:
Shout! Factory Community - LEAVE IT TO BEAVER

If I found out tomorrow that Shout! had licensed the show, I wouldn't be exactly shocked. Not that I know anything like that will happen. I'm just saying that things could change.

It's also worth pointing out that Shout! is not the only independent studio which licenses material from Universal. Arts Alliance, for example.

It's also worth pointing out that, at that time last year, Brian's official title (as far as I knew back then, and as I was listing it in any news posts at the time) was "DVD Producer and Manager of DVD and Home Video". These days he's apparently stepped back from any management role. Early this year he advised me that any news posts in which I mention his name, he should only be noted as a "DVD Producer". I don't know the story behind the change, but it sounded like he's perfectly happy with his current role (and that's good enough for me).

Mike, *I* have heard plenty about how sales went with LitB. What I have heard sounds like it's in the neighborhood of what's been described by Brian at the Shout! board. I hope that's good enough for you. Still, as Warner Home Video's execs said in an interview about Night Court, what sounded like bad numbers a few years ago may not be so bad after all, when re-examined with comparisons to releases much more similar to the item in question...releases that hadn't happened back when such a comparison would have been beneficial. In other words, situations (and the analysis of what they mean) can - and often do - change.


I'll finish here by saying that it sounds like there's a growing amount of contention here, between a bunch of people whom I each like. It would be a shame if everyone got upset with each other, and then some good news came along a few weeks later and all the fans here at HTF were too upset with each other to really cooperatively enjoy the good news. Not that I know there will be good news or anything. I'm just saying how ironic it would be, you know?


Just trying to be helpful...

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

Thanks David. I fully understand that the info I was drawing on was a year ago, and that things could be different at this point. I thought I had made that clear, but perhaps I failed in that respect. At this point we all know things can change and what was seemingly dead in the water yesterday can be alive today. I kinda took it for granted that people would understand that I was NOT making some end all statement, but only giving my opinion. Yes, I did say the sales were horrible, but it should have been understood that this was only based on what people in the business had told me. Theres no outlet that I'm aware of where one can get that info on their own, so it stands to reason we are all dependent on those inside the industry for news like that.

All I knew at the time I posted was that I had heard from at least 2 different people whom I'd consider to have solid info about sales being low and that being the reason for Universal not continuing with the series. I postulated (and said it was only my opinion) that Shout might not go after the series if they too thought it sold poorly. That's all I said and I felt like I was subjected to the infamous "Spanking Machine" in Miss Rayburn's closet. Again, I tried to accompany my comments with caveats expressing that it was only my opinion but as I said above, I guess I failed. Basically I was just thinking out loud and didn't feel the response I got was warranted.

And you are right that there's a little contention here. I just felt like I got slammed for expressing my opinions based on what I did know. That's never helpful to a discussion, IMHO. Maybe I was too thin-skinned. But to be honest I was about ready to call it a day on these boards permanently, so the concerns you expressed in your last paragraph were right on. I know some folks that have all but abandoned posting because they don't like the tone displayed from time to time. And that really is a shame. We should all be able to come here and discuss our favorite shows and the accompanying news about recent or future releases.

Ok, I've said too much already. Thanks again for the info David. It is greatly appreciated.

Gary "take care, everyone" O.

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

Does Universal hold the rights to all six seasons?

I believe one of the reasons the sales may have been low, in addition to the high price, was poor marketing. I recall when the DVD's of Season 1 and 2 were released the releases were not advertised in the Sunday advertising pages for Best Buy or Circuit City, and when I went to Best Buy to buy the series Best Buy did not even have it out for display. Someone had to go in back, and it took them over a half hour to locate the DVD set for me.

But I think there is some reason in addition to all of the above that we don't know about. A ton of shows with far less of a following than LITB have had all of their seasons released. Frank Bank said in his radio interview on Shokus that he was confident that all seasons would be released...but he gave no reason to back up his confidence. He just stated that he and Ken Osmand were ticked that they were asked to do commentary for free.

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

If Shout were to take on the license, or if someone like Time Life were to take it, would it be more financially feasible to do two box sets? I'm talking about doing a complete series, but breaking it up into two sets since it was a long series?

I think Time Life could do well w/this series seeing as how well they did w/Get Smart the complete Series. Those commercials seriously got me to thinking that this was series I must have even though I never saw a full episode, and surprise....it worked. If Time Life were to do commercial advertising Leave it to Beaver I think more people would take interest and take them up on it.

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

I apologize if anyone (especially Gary) took offense to my tone in Post #584. My intention was not to slam anyone. My intention was to say what I stated in the post: that it wasn't clear to me that the conclusions drawn by Gary were based in any reality.

My points were that I didn't remember any definitive word that sales of LitB had been characterized as horrible (note that in both posts I have said that it is I who don't remember any such evidence being presented. My memory, like anyone else's, is not perfect and I was looking to see if Gary could be more specific than in his earlier post.) and that I thought--based on the lack of such info--I thought his conclusion that Shout! would not touch LitB was based on shaky ground.

I guess all this comes from the fact I'm frustrated by groundless speculation in any arena. Either something's going to happen or it isn't. Guessing what someone else's actions are going to be is a game I am not comfortable with playing. I don't see it's value.

Since Gary has reported he is now hearing different sales figures from others and Dave figures Shout! might (or, then again, might not) still be a player I guess my point is proven: that we really don't know what's going to happen with the future of LitB on DVD. Simple as that. Frustrating, but true.

Honestly, the most amazing development for me in all this has been that Netflix has made the rest of the series available. I wonder what impact (if any) that might have on any future DVD packaging of season sets. Seems like it might mean that there are masters out there ready for production and marketing.

Gary: As I stated above, I apologize if you thought I was being contentious just for the sake of making an argument. That's not my style. It's probably not my place (as I have no official capacity at all with the HTF) but I would like to say that I hope that you wouldn't give up on the place based on my lone post. I honestly haven't heard of anyone who has cut back posting here because of a tone. But, since I don't represent the HTF, don't leave it because of my tone. Stand up for what you believe and say so. it is that discourse of ideas and opinions that makes the HTF (in my opinion) a great place to hang out.

Dave: Don't worry about me. If there's any good news about LitB, I'll be among the first to should, "Hallelujah!" And I still think the Netflix move amounts to very good news for the future of the series on DVD.

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

We're cool, Mike. No problems at all. We both love the series so much and we both get emotional about it from time to time. And bottom line: We both want it out on dvd. Let's hope it happens soon.


Gary "have a good evening, buddy" O.

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

Any idea when Netflix began playing the episodes or did the members of this forum only become aware of this after my post? Your thought about the master tape may have merit as Netflix does not play all episodes saying, "some episodes of this series are available only on disc".

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

Someone posted about the Netflix LITBs in this thread back in July. At least that's when I became aware of it...

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

I don't post a lot here. I mainly read what others have to say. Gary, I personally enjoy your posts. I've seen them in several threads, and there would a big hole in this forum if you did stop posting.

I've never seen you be anything except kind and gracious, even when dissenting with someone. That's a rare quality indeed, and you are no doubt an asset to any forum that you choose to contribute to.

I also want to see the remaining seasons of LITB released, but do remember the less than encouraging response that was left to you at the Shout Factory message board many months back. Universal is obviously disappointed with the DVD release of the first two seasons, or we would have certainly seen season three by now.

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

Thanks William. That means a lot to me. I believe that one of the things this latest discussion has shown is that because the dvd industry is so hush-hush most of the time as it concerns sales numbers it's very hard to get a good grip on whether or not a certain show sold well. I've had different people ("insiders" or execs/producers) who all have access to the same info give me somewhat different viewpoints on whether LiTB sold well or not. I'm guessing the point is that there are different expectations for sales based on the size of the studio or company putting it out. What I believe we can say is this: LiTB did not meet the expectations of Universal, but had it been put out by an independent, somewhat smaller, company it probably would have been judged to have done OK. At least that's the way I'd interpret the situation. As to whether or not another company will look at those numbers and decide to pick up the series or let it stay dormant only time will tell. But I never meant to suggest the show would never start back up. We all know anything is possible.

Gary "thanks again for the encouragement, friend" O.

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

Do you believe that the syndicated LITB has been "speeded up"?

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

I've seen LITB speeded up to various degrees. It seems to be slightly on TV Land, but not enough to be really noticeable.

Re: Leave it to beaver season 3?

Not sure if this has been posted already, but for those without Netflix membership or pay TV, LITB has also been available on free TV lately on the Retro Television Network. You can find RTN on the digital broadcast tier in most major markets (I found it by accident when programming a digital tuner box recently…a pleasant surprise). I’ve been DVR’ing the shows for several weeks now. I can’t tell how much the episodes have been edited, but they don’t seem to be too hacked-up, and it sure is great to see stuff from the later seasons again. Aside from this and the new Netflix availability, though, I would still really like to see the entire series released on DVD ASAP.

Further thoughts:

Considering the apparent DVD sales and production boost from the recent Mary Tyler Moore Show cast reunion, does anyone think a similar Beaver reunion would help it’s cause? And if so, what would be the most likely scenario for such a reunion?

Also, IF the remaining seasons do finally see the light of day on DVD, it’s obvious that the budget would be very tight. Taking that into consideration, what’s the likelihood of any former cast members donating their time to the cause as a tribute to the show and its fans? And before anything else, I want to say that I think it’s just plain sad that Frank Bank and Ken Osmond were asked to provide commentary without pay, given that this injustice happened in the very beginning when deep-pocketed Universal was involved and before low sales were even an issue. I’m just trying to envision an ideal solution to a lousy problem. If the money just isn’t there now due to lower sales projections, then perhaps doing something for the joy of the experience (in this case, cast members gathering together for what-might-be-but hopefully-wouldn’t-be the last time, reminiscing in interviews and providing free commentary) would be better than doing nothing at all (sitting out in protest)…although I would still understand and would not hold a grudge if the latter was chosen. Just a crazy thought, that’s all. But if there’s any way whatsoever for the production company to scrape up some form of compensation, then pay ‘em, darn it!