Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Bill Hunt has taken it upon himself and The Bits to make some sense of the Star Wars situation from a strictly functional point of view. To that end, he has requested that I append my thoughts, which I have done.

If there is a desire to continue that area of the discussion, without going into various tangents, or unnecessarily going into negative rants regarding Lucasfilm, I believe this thread may remain open.

There appears to be a very fine line between the archival arena, prudent (financially based) business decisions and marketing, and I don't believe that any single decision that might have been made is totally correct. It is acknowledged that we are at least partially in a rather gray area.

That said, those who have not read Bill's "rant" over at the Bits will be welcomed at: http://www.digitalbits.com/#mytwocents

RAH

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

I think most people are in agreement that a proper restoration of the original films is possible.
The question then becomes, is it really that riddiculous for Lucasfilm not to want to invest the time and money necessary to do that proper restoration? Considering that they're viewing the original films as essentially extras on the fall re-release such costs and investments would probably be unprecedented for such an "extra."
Especially for versions of the films that Lucasfilm has made clear they will not be supporting going forward into the future.

That being the case, I happen to think that non-anamorphic transfers, while not the best DVD is capable of, still will probably represent the best these versions of the films have ever looked on the home video format. That is still worthy of appreciation, in my book.

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

To give credit, where credit is due, the transfers used for the Definitive Boxed Set were state of the art at the time. In addition, non-anamorphic transfers on DVD, while far from the current accepted technology could look quite acceptable before anamorphic became the flavor of the day.

The only question is how they'll port to a format which will be appreciably less forgiving than laserdisc.

RAH

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Given that I've never seen the OOT in any form other than my '95 THX Pan and Scan VHS tapes (I was only 12 at the time and didn't know any better!), I'll still be buying these to see the films in their OAR. Sure they could be presented better, or rather, they SHOULD be, but some of us that didn't enjoy LD technology still have something to look forward to.

I'm still hoping that someone will be able to convince Lucasfilm to give these films the treatment they deserve though.

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

I hate that they're being released non-anamorphic but, as Adam said, they're still probably going to be the best that they've ever looked (and it'll beat some crappy bootleg). That being said, they could and should look even better.

Thanks for weighing in on the matter, RAH.

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

I say a thorough restoration MUST be undertaken. It isn't even a question. The original versions MUST be preserved for their cinematic historical value alone.

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

RAH,

Great stuff from the Bits. Now if only the powers that be will take you up on your offer. You never know...

Regards,

D

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Robert,

I really enjoyed reading your thoughts in that article over at "The Bits". I think everything you(and Bill as well) are saying is absolutely correct and it would be fantastic if you were given the opportunity to restore these films. Sadly, however, I don't think it could possibly happen in the timetable that has been given for their release.

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

How long would it take to do the work described in the Bits article to ensure the best looking picture possible?

On the sound side, any idea how long it would take to create a 5.1/6.1 surround sound mix?

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

For September 12? Possible, but doubtful, unless ramped up extremely quickly.

RAH

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

The work described in the Bits discussion should be scheduled for a full six month period. Could it be squeezed into a shorter timespan? Yes, but as noted in the post above, unless started almost immediately, there would be no hope of meeting a deadline allowing production of software to be released on the current schedule.

RAH

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Fox paid for the Special Edition restorations, didn't they? Surely they'd be prepared to foot the bill for new transfers of the original versions, if Lucasfilm isn't?

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

I believe that it's not Fox's call to make, since Lucas owns these films.

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We know at least that a good quality element exists with "A New Hope" ommitted from the crawl. Surely theres got to be more than that.

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Well, this news has kind of shattered my hopes. My enthusiasm for this new release is gone. I don't believe I will be buying these because they're simply not what I want. Anamorphic releases are not special treatment. Even straight to video releases of B grade and lower films are presented in anamorphic widescreen.

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

sorry fellas. I can't sympathize with the "well it will still look better than the laserdisc" sentiments at all.
In the previous thread, I said my lowball reference point for the quality of this release will be The Black Hole disc that Disney released 1 or 2 years ago.
basically bare bones with an anamorphic transfer using unrestored elements.
I mean, c'mon, we are talking about 3 of the most financially succsessful films of all time, the films in the same versions that created the empire of George Lucas- and the eventual consumer is supposed to give a spiteful sub standard release (and we all know full well, this is exactly what it is) a pass- and not only that, lay down hard earned money for it?


Here is another point to consider.
75-90% of these films are already restored and available in HD masters.
Even if the 'majority' of the film elements were lost, and the 'original' sections only exist on quite inferior D2 masters, what is reason an approximation of the original versions isn't attempted by using the majority of the superior masters?
If in fact the masters for the LDs are being used, the original crawl will have to be 'approximated' anyway...why not just approximate the original film as best as possible from the best materials as possible?
Just how much time and expense would be required to digitally cut out SE material, insert the upscaled non SE material, and then resynch a 2 channel sountrack? Compared to a full blown restoration, i'm betting not much (although I very much agree these films, in their original state, do merit restorative work).

the reason this effort will not be expended for this release, and may not be done at all is...well, we all are well aware of the reason here.


I'll say it again, anyone that supports this kind of behavior from a filmmaker, and this kind of substandard product from a 'studio' deserves to be used, degraded and fleeced as early and as often as possible.

Robert, I enjoyed your inputs on the bits editorial. I'm just sadden that any effort espoused in even discussing this cause is in vain tough.

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

ADVISORY


I wanted to post this earlier, but couldn't get in this
thread quickly enough.

I thought it was a great idea that one of the most highly
respected members of our forum reopen discussion that I
had closed earlier today because that discussion was reduced
to personal attacks.

I also think it's important that you know that folks from
LucasFilm are reading this thread.

I want to make absolutely certain that every post in this
thread is polite and constructive. If it is not, this thread
will be closed.

Thank You!

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

There is no excuse for a non-anamorphic widescreen release in 2006, no way, no how, regardless of the source used.

Period.

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Thanks for the info, RAH. As usual, an expert opinion on the technical side sometimes crystallizes the business decision. I was extremely excited for this decision a few weeks back. It's a cash grab, and always has been. But that's OK. GL has mouths to feed in his big company. Some spoke of generosity and "giving the fans what they want", but most folks with a modicum of business sense recognized the decision as simply a smart business decision. The OOT would sell.

What a change a few short days makes. Like Paul and Vic stated, this is shoddy treatment, even for "bonus material" (which I consider the most egregious copout I've ever seen - NO ONE cared about the 2004 releases getting individually packaged). But in the end, it is what it is. A business decision. Was it made to save money or face? Who knows? But it turned me off in a big way. Off the release, off the company (as it also cost them my sale for whatever 2007 box release they were planning), and off the boss.

Again, I appreciate your efforts to educate and inform us, RAH. I'm sure your talents will find other projects that deserve your attention.

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Honestly guys, I'm seeing this whole thing as a case of looking a gift horse in the mouth.

There is no reason on earth for a director to release a version of a film he does not like. That's a fact.

That he refused to do so for years and has finally relented to please his fans is an act out outright generousity. Say what you will about his massive fortunes: it's not your money, and these aren't your movies.

He's being nice. All this controversy is teaching George Lucas is that his fans will never be satisfied, never be grateful, and never stop whining.

Wherever he is, this debate will only cause him to care less about our opinion - just minutes after he commits an act of generousity.

This is ludicrous.

Take it like men.

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Speaking of The Black Hole, I was also thinking "if Star Wars looks as good as this", I would be happy. That was a ten dollar dvd released with no fanfare and I wonder what the source for a disc like that might be, and how much time and money it would take to create. Just for comparison.

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

That why everyone reading this thread should voice their dissatisfaction to this e-mail address:

publicity@lucasfilm.com

It will only help if your concerns are presented in a polite and constructive manner, but also be sure to let them know that you have no desire to purchase non-anamorphic DVDs that will be of inferior quality when ompared to practically every other disc released this year.

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Ron, since your advisory came after my post, and mine looks to be the 'harshest' one so far, just let me say in it's defense, I'm not calling anyone names, or disparaging anything other than the product here and the effort being put forth for that product.

If HTF has any kind of charter or mission statment, surely you, the other mods, and Mr Harris have to agree that this kind of a release flies in the face of it and should be challenged as strenuously (though civilly) as possible.
If it isn't, and the non clued-in crowd actually buys this, then the wrong people have won and it sets a woeful precedant for the future.
this is 2006. minimum standards should apply to all producers of HT gear and software. and this release will clearly be below even those bare minimums.

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

I think Ron mentioned in the other thread that LucasFilm people are monitoring this discussion. It should be pretty clear to them from my comments that I won't be purchasing any widescreen material that isn't enhanced for widescreen TVs.

Is any company releasing widescreen material on non-anamorphic discs these days?

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

For me, as a consumer, it comes down to this. I have limited funds to buy dvd's. I only buy ones that I really want, and are quality presentations. I had every intention, however, of re-buying the Star Wars Trilogy because of the original versions. But I can't spend money on a product that could look better, because I fear that it will be released again next year in a better version. I would like LucasFilms to reconsider their decision, and present the original versions in the best possible presentation. If they do, then I will buy.

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

Elijah,

I have just one simple question for you: do you have a widescreen high definition TV? Because if you do, I don't see how you could possibly be willing to accept a non-anamorphic DVD that will look like absolute garbage when you watch it on your display. All of this has nothing to do with ungrateful "fanboys" or any of the other Star Wars issues that have gone on in the past. It's about one simple thing........QUALITY. It's 2006 and at this point we have all been "spoiled" by pristine anamorphic DVD transfers, broadcast HDTV and now high definition films on disc. To release a DVD, any DVD, in this day and age that isn't anamorphically enhanced is an unacceptable practice by any studio, not just Lucasfilm. My sincere hope is that there is still time to get this changed, but as the clock keeps on ticking I'm not going to count on it.

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

The below is my email to Lucasfilm:

It is with great disappointment that I learned that the 2nd discs of your upcoming re-issue of the classic trilogy will only contain re-hashed 4:3 letterbox presentations last used on the laserdisc releases from the mid-1990s (which I already own). To issue DVDs at this stage of the format's lifespan and not make them enhanced for display on 16:9 high definition TV sets is unacceptable. Fox Home video stopped using recycled laserdisc transfers after their first batch of titles released on DVD in the late 90s, and they have been true to their work, delivering terrific product since then. I assume calling the inclusion of the unaltered versions & labeling them simply as "bonus material" is a way to side-step the giant step backward in quality that these non-anamorphic discs will represent.

I am by no means wealthy, but several years ago I made the long-term investment in two 16:9 HD Mitsubishi sets in my home (42" and 65"), and own nearly 1,000 titles on DVD. I vote with my wallet and do not reward studios who produce sub-standard product. At this point in the life of the DVD format, even small niche titles get DVD releases using the best possible elements and disc enhancement for 16:9 monitors is standard. My friends, accquaintances and co-workers frequently ask for my advice on titles and equipment and listen to my recommendations of quaility product to seek out and purchase. If you choose to procede with releasing the classic unaltered trilogy with non-enhanced 4:3 letterbox transfers, I will certainly encourage anyone within earshot to avoid them. The making-of featurettes and trailers were anamorpically enhanced on your previous Star Wars DVD releases, and the THX seal has always promised the best possible audio and video presentation, so to do less with this release is beneath the standard your company has always acheieved. These films are a proud part of American cinema history and deserve better.

Notice that I haven't even mentioned how much of a Star Wars fan I am. I am 37, married to an understanding wife, and have two of each figure released since 1995, plus playsets, comics--an attic full of items. Admittedly, I did sell of my childhood collection of 1978-1985 items when the Special Editions were released thearically, and its appreciation in value made for the downpayment on our home. However, I was also a film major in college, and I am upset any time a film is given a shoddy home video release. This particular release just stings a bit more. I would happily purchase these upcoming releases if the material was receiving the best treatment and presentation the DVD format can offer. But this seems a quick & dirty way to grab some 4th quarter sales with little effort on the company's part to produce a quality product. As it stands now, I will not be buying, and I will encourage anyone else who will listen to avoid this product as well...

I sincerely hope that your company puts more effort and releases the unaltered trilogy with high-quality transfers and anamorphically enhanced DVDs. To treat them no better than a 4:3 video-based EPK would be shameful. If it means spending a bit more money to do it right or delaying the releases by a few weeks, I think a wealthy, resourceful company like Lucasfilm can manage it. And the fans will certainly appreciate your efforts.

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

One fact which I don't believe has yet been discussed is that release dates, packaging and content can change.

There is no reason why this release cannot hit the streets 60 - 90 days later, and become a very important, and well-received Christmas item. With quality intact, this could be the home video Christmas gift of 2006.

And THAT can be accomplished. Its simply a matter of doing it.

RAH

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

What happened in the first thread was unfortunate, particularly for those who wanted to further a serious discussion of this matter. I am pleased that discussion can now continue with Mr. Harris' calm and invaluable input. I agree 100% with the insight and informed opinions that he and Bill Hunt have offered over at The Bits. I think everyone should definitely read what they have to say there before jumping in here.

Re: Star Wars discussion from The Bits...

I'm glad that we have Lucasfilm's attention.

Personally, I would be happy with just an anamorphic transfer. I'm not asking them to go and do a full-blown restoration like they did with the 2004 release. I think it's a shame that they are releasing this in 4:3 letterbox. Lucasfilm is knowsn for their THX, excellent quality DVD releases. In a time when most bonus featurettes are presented in anamorphic widescreen, I see no reason why this "extra" can't receive the same treatment.

It's not too late, so please release the original version anamorphic.