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Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?

#31
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6/4/09 at 3:09am
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Re: Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?

So ironic, Greg: I've been wondering whether to pick this up for months while I still have my HD DVD player:

Amazon.com: Gustav Mahler: Symphony No. 2 Resurrection [HD DVD]: Diana Damrau, Petra Lang, Chor der Deutschen Staatsoper Berlin, Michael Beyer: Movies & TV

It looks like a high rez (1080i; Dolby TrueHD) presentation of the same Boulez perf of the "Resurrection" that you have the DVD of.

Good, but you're not as fond of it as the Fischer SACD perf?
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#32
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6/6/09 at 2:50pm
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Re: Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.S
Good, but you're not as fond of it as the Fischer SACD perf? (Re: Boulez DVD/HDDVD)

Sadly I haven't listened to any version of the Second in over three months. Responsibilities sometimes keep me from the "sweet spot" between those Infinity towers for longer than I wish. Videos are so different. They focus in on soloists and the conductor. Not even close to the "live" experience. But the visuals do alter one's overall impression of the performance. So...my favorite 2nds are still Fischer and Klemperer, with the Boulez video, early Bernstein and Tilson-Thomas picking up the rear. The Bloomfeldt SF recording is so sad.

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#33
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6/6/09 at 4:37pm
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Re: Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?

Re "Videos are so different. They focus in on soloists and the conductor. Not even close to the "live" experience. But the visuals do alter one's overall impression of the performance."

Exacty. That's why I've held off on getting the the HD DVD or the Bernstein DVDs I linked to earlier until I've had months more experience listening to those respective symphonies.

Thanks as always for your comments, Greg.

Btw, have you seen this DVD and, if so, any comments? It sounds interesting and I'm planning to check it out as I shift my attentions to the 3 (after much more listening to the Fischer 2 of course!).

Amazon.com: What the Universe Tells Me - Unraveling the Mysteries of Mahler's Third Symphony / Stockard Channing, Thomas Hampson: Stockard Channing, Mignon Dunn, Thomas Hampson, Manhattan School of Music Symphony Orchestra, Glen Cortese, Jason Starr:
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#34
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6/6/09 at 5:35pm
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Re: Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?


Why are you tempting me with this stuff? It's not like I don't have enough Mahler. Now there's "Mysteries" and "Little Drummer Boys" and ...

It's fun to hear how others try to interpret what Mahler was saying through his music. Futile, but fun.

Last summer I had the opportunity to introduce a 73 year old classical music buff on my route to Mahler's First. He'd heard the name but never the music. He tells me it was a very profound experience. I don't think we need Stockard Channing, et al. to tell us how to appreciate, or even understand Mahler's music. But I'd still like to see it. Even M said that the names he gave the movements in the Third were a concession to the "Programme Music" contingent of the European musical press.

So, I may get them when $$ permits. Would be a fun watch, but certainly not better than the music itself.

"Aufersteh'n, ja aufersteh'n wirst du, Mein Herz, in einem Nu.
Was du geschlagen, Zu Gott wird es dich tragen!"

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#35
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6/7/09 at 5:15pm
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Re: Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?

LOL re "tempting me with this stff" and "Futile, but fun."

Although I haven't spun the discs yet, I think it likely fair to say that Stockard et al. aren't "tell[ing]" us how to appreciate/understand the music as much as they are offering interpretations of the "texts" and commentary on what inspired them. Although I understand that that is an academic approach that indeed is not better than the music itself (and I don't think anyone would make that argument), it can aid in understanding the richness of the music. I'm thinking that DVD will be like the Zander commentary CDs, but offering even more perspectives than "just" those from someone with musical training. I welcome all of that wholeheartedly. Indeed, anything to help make these works--and classical music in general--more accessible is a good thing IMO.
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#36
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6/7/09 at 8:48pm
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Re: Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?

Would anyone who is a fan of Mahler's music care to share why they like it? Is it the melodic construction, instrumentation, the counterpoint, the range of dynamics, the magnitude of his orchestral scores, etc.? Or is it something else entirely?

I have very specific reasons why I admire his compositional output, and would be curious to hear what others think of his work and why. Some of my favorites are the Titan Symphony (particularly the second movement), the Kindertotenlieder, and Das Lied von der Erde.
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#37
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6/8/09 at 1:34pm
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Re: Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.S
Although I haven't spun the discs yet, I think it likely fair to say that Stockard et al. aren't "tell[ing]" us how to appreciate/understand the music as much as they are offering interpretations of the "texts" and commentary on what inspired them. Although I understand that that is an academic approach that indeed is not better than the music itself (and I don't think anyone would make that argument), it can aid in understanding the richness of the music... Indeed, anything to help make these works--and classical music in general--more accessible is a good thing IMO.

I agree, and I hope to hear this recording someday. Reminds me of the "Harvard Lectures" by Leonard Bernstein back in the early 70s. IIRC the last lecture was almost entirely devoted to Mahler's 9th Symphony and his use of appogiatura in it. I may still have it on reel-to-reel out in the garage somewhere. Definitely would be worth a listen. But Stockard Channing still strikes me as an unlikely choice for this venture. Shows what we really know about movie stars.

"Aufersteh'n, ja aufersteh'n wirst du, Mein Herz, in einem Nu.
Was du geschlagen, Zu Gott wird es dich tragen!"

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#38
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6/8/09 at 1:45pm
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Re: Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ockeghem
Would anyone who is a fan of Mahler's music care to share why they like it? Is it the melodic construction, instrumentation, the counterpoint, the range of dynamics, the magnitude of his orchestral scores, etc.? Or is it something else entirely?

I have very specific reasons why I admire his compositional output, and would be curious to hear what others think of his work and why. Some of my favorites are the Titan Symphony (particularly the second movement), the Kindertotenlieder, and Das Lied von der Erde.

Your five suggestions all apply with me. But it goes way beyond that. Mahler struck a sympathetic emotional chord with me over 35 years ago. Goosebumps and shaking my head in disbelief. Yes his symphonic constructs are very elaborate and complicated, and yes his contrapuntal techniques and developmental ideas are extraordinary. It all comes back to the listener responding on some primal level to the music.

Odd though that you mention three of my least favorite works of GM. And I certainly don't mean they aren't great pieces of music. Just that 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, Des Knaben Wunderhorn, Lieder eines Fahrenden Gesselen, rank higher in my personal pantheon.

Love it all.

"Aufersteh'n, ja aufersteh'n wirst du, Mein Herz, in einem Nu.
Was du geschlagen, Zu Gott wird es dich tragen!"

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#39
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6/8/09 at 2:02pm
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Re: Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?

Re "But Stockard Channing still strikes me as an unlikely choice for this venture. Shows what we really know about movie stars."

Awww, c'mon now, Greg. It's not like they chose Miley Cyrus. Setting aside how much I liked her in SIX DEGREES OF SEPARATION, I think everything I've read so far states that Ms. Channing is a narrator (as opposed to, say, "host"). That may mean she's doing voice over and not even on camera (not that I'd have a problem with that either). So what's the issue--that a "celebrity" was hired? Would a no-"name" musicologist or academician providing the possibly entirely off-screen narration be more acceptable?

I'd surmise that the reason they chose a "name" actor instead of, say, Benjamin Zander to narrate goes to the issue of accessibility. Perhaps part of their goals is not simply to preach to the (Mahlerian size) choir but instead to try to capture the attention of those who might not otherwise watch a documentary about a classical composer.

Again, if just a few people are drawn to the DVD who otherwise might not be becasue they recognize Ms. Channing's name and surmise it's a decent production (assuming that we all agree the subject matter is more than worthwhile but that the execution of such a documentary is the thing) because of her involvement then, again, I think that's a good thing.
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#40
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6/8/09 at 2:07pm
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Re: Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.S
Re "But Stockard Channing still strikes me as an unlikely choice for this venture. Shows what we really know about movie stars."

Awww, c'mon now, Greg. It's not like they chose Miley Cyrus. Setting aside how much I liked her in SIX DEGREES OF SEPARATION, I think everything I've read so far states that Ms. Channing is a narrator (as opposed to, say, "host"). That may mean she's doing voice over and not even on camera (not that I'd have a problem with that either). So what's the issue--that a "celebrity" was hired? Would a no-"name" musicologist or academician providing the possibly entirely off-screen narration be more acceptable?

I'd surmise that the reason they chose a "name" actor instead of, say, Benjamin Zander to narraet goes to the issue of accessibility. Perhaps part of their goals is not simply to preach to the (Mahlerian size) choir but instead to try to capture the attention of those who might not otherwise watch a documentary about a classical composer.

Again, if just a few people are drawn to the DVD who otherwise might not be becasue they recognize Ms. Channing's name and surmise it's a decent production (assuming that we all agree the subject matter is more than worthwhile but that the execution of such a documentary is the thing) because of her involvement then, again, I think that's a good thing.

I think you got me wrong here, Paul. My point was that Ms. Channing must in fact like Mahler. Otherwise she would have probably turned down the offer to speak on his behalf. I think it's great when celebreties show their human side and speak for their artistic preferences. And her choice will indeed likely generate more publicity for the disc and for the composer. Really we are in agreement, OK?

"Aufersteh'n, ja aufersteh'n wirst du, Mein Herz, in einem Nu.
Was du geschlagen, Zu Gott wird es dich tragen!"

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#41
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6/9/09 at 11:42am
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Re: Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?

Ah okay--sorry: I misread/misunderstood.

In fairness, I would be wary of ascribing 'too much' significance vis-a-vis possible Mahler affinity to her participation on the project. As an actor I know that it simply may be a case of her being available and the price being right.
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#42
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6/9/09 at 1:36pm
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Re: Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?

I am also enjoying the Zinman/Tonhalle SACDs of Mahler on RCA.

Viewing: Sony KDSXBR150, Samsung 1400, DirectTV
Listening: Sony SCD777ES, Oppo980H, VPI Scoutmaster, Audio Research Electronics, Magnepan 1.6s

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#43
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6/10/09 at 9:37am
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Re: Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Bright
Your five suggestions all apply with me. But it goes way beyond that. Mahler struck a sympathetic emotional chord with me over 35 years ago. Goosebumps and shaking my head in disbelief. Yes his symphonic constructs are very elaborate and complicated, and yes his contrapuntal techniques and developmental ideas are extraordinary. It all comes back to the listener responding on some primal level to the music.

Odd though that you mention three of my least favorite works of GM. And I certainly don't mean they aren't great pieces of music. Just that 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, Des Knaben Wunderhorn, Lieder eines Fahrenden Gesselen, rank higher in my personal pantheon.

Love it all.
Greg,

I may have had a similar experience the first time I sat down and analyzed a score of Gustav Mahler's. His orchestrations were one of the questions on my comps. at the master's level. I am pleased that I had a fairly good knowledge of his instrumentation. I wrote for hours on that essay, and it was quite an enjoyable experience.

I am partial to the "Titan" because of how he handles the French tune that is included in the second movement. The symphony as a whole is certainly not as bombastic as some of his later works in the genre.

I too greatly appreciate Des Knaben Wunderhorn. The Wunderhorn settings -- frequently referred to (loosely) as a song-cycle on some recordings -- were a favorite of one of my best friends while in college. He wanted to sing several of them for his senior recital.

The Kindertotenlieder are among my favorite of his compositions, again because I've studied most of them. They certainly are heart-wrenching, but I happen to love morose and macabre subjects, be it in music or in film. Have a peek at what Mahler had to say about them a few years after he had completed the work:

The poignancy of the cycle is increased by the fact that four years after he wrote it, Mahler lost his daughter, Maria, aged four, to scarlet fever. He wrote to Guido Adler: "I placed myself in the situation that a child of mine had died. When I really lost my daughter, I could not have written these songs any more."

Kindertotenlieder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On a more personal note, I have read accounts of Mahler's preoccupation with his heart (in the physical sense). When he was diagnosed with a particular type of heart disease (infective endocarditis), it seems that this really took its toll on him physically and psychologically.
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#44
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6/10/09 at 2:08pm
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Re: Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ockeghem
I may have had a similar experience the first time I sat down and analyzed a score of Gustav Mahler's. His orchestrations were one of the questions on my comps. at the master's level. I am pleased that I had a fairly good knowledge of his instrumentation. I wrote for hours on that essay, and it was quite an enjoyable experience.

I have the scores to 1, 2, and 5. Fascinating stuff. And that essentially after 2 he did it all in his head. My head is shaped much like his, but I don't think I could ever pull off what he did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ockeghem
I am partial to the "Titan" because of how he handles the French tune that is included in the second movement. The symphony as a whole is certainly not as bombastic as some of his later works in the genre.

I have never found any of his works, except maybe the 8th and bits of the last movement of the 7th, bombastic. Even at full throttle fffff there is a sense of delicacy and inner part dynamics that give one cause to celebrate. Bombastic is for lesser composers and some Wagner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ockeghem
The poignancy of the cycle is increased by the fact that four years after he wrote it, Mahler lost his daughter, Maria, aged four, to scarlet fever. He wrote to Guido Adler: "I placed myself in the situation that a child of mine had died. When I really lost my daughter, I could not have written these songs any more."

I know the story. Some say the songs caused the death of his daughter. I doubt that, but death did run in his family - his brother, for example.

Sure would like to hear some of Alma's compositions.

Greg

"Aufersteh'n, ja aufersteh'n wirst du, Mein Herz, in einem Nu.
Was du geschlagen, Zu Gott wird es dich tragen!"

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#45
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6/10/09 at 8:15pm
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Re: Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?

Greg,

There are several writings (letters and reminiscences) of Alma Mahler which are a fascinating read. You probably own them, but if not, I can recommend a few sources that include some of them if you like.
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#46
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6/12/09 at 4:45am
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Re: Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?

Two sites that I have used for years in helping me determine which ones to purchase among the many Mahler recordings available are the ones by Deryk Barker and Tony Duggan. Both are long-time members of the Mahler List (as am I), and both are incredibly knowledgable about the Mahler discography.

The Mahler Symphonies: A synoptic survey by Tony Duggan

http://turing.cs.camosun.bc.ca:8080/Mahler

"Aufersteh'n, ja aufersteh'n wirst du, Mein Herz, in einem Nu.
Was du geschlagen, Zu Gott wird es dich tragen!"

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#47
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6/23/09 at 12:12pm
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Re: Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?

New York Philharmonic: The Complete Mahler Symphonies, Live

Plus Maazel conducting the 8 will broadcast this Thursday as part of the commemoration of the end of his N.Y. Phil Directorship.

New York Philharmonic: Maazel Conducts Mahler's Symphony of a Thousand
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#48
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6/24/09 at 5:53am
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Re: Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?

Mahler by Maazel, fascinating. My experience with him is limited to Sibelius w/ the Vienna Phil from over 30 years ago. I recently read that some members of the NYPO found him distant and uninvolved on the podium. I'll try to catch this Friday's 8th. I've read nothing about his Mahler though.

"Aufersteh'n, ja aufersteh'n wirst du, Mein Herz, in einem Nu.
Was du geschlagen, Zu Gott wird es dich tragen!"

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#49
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6/24/09 at 5:12pm
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Re: Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?

Thursday--tomorrow--not Friday.
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#50
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6/24/09 at 6:24pm
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Re: Comments on the SFS Mahler SACD's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.S
Thursday--tomorrow--not Friday.

Thanks for the heads up. At least I'm in the same time zone so I won't have to hurry home. Time for the grocery, haircut, mistr..., uh. Yeah. Got a couple retirements at work on Friday so I am compelled to fix a tasty auf Wiedersehen dish. I think M8 and Mexican 5 bean salad from Guanajuato will go hand in hand.

"Aufersteh'n, ja aufersteh'n wirst du, Mein Herz, in einem Nu.
Was du geschlagen, Zu Gott wird es dich tragen!"

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#51
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7/9/09 at 3:24pm
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Greg:

I just found on Amaz that Fischer has done the 4 and the 6 for Channel Classics also.  Have you had a chance to hear these and, if so, are you as enamored of them as you are his 2?

Just rented the Abaddo / Lucerne Fest / EuroArts #2 DVD.  Good IMO.  Am looking forward to further comparative listening in the form of the Haitink / Berlin / Philips #2 DVD that just arrived.  I just did my first dedicated, critical listen of the Fischer after lots of casual, background listening and thought the low end was wee lacking.  Am I just too used to the Telarc bass drum and having a psychosomatic reaction to the disc being 5.0?
Edited by Paul.S - 7/9/2009 at 10:37 pm GMT
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#52
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7/9/09 at 3:40pm
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Oh wow I just finally gripped your sig thanks to the translations in Fischer 2 Channel liners:

"You will rise, yes, you will rise again,
My heart, in an instant!
That which you beat
Will carry you up to God."

Awesome.
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