1/26/07 at 10:26pm
"Jee-sus, it's like Iwo Jima out there" - Roger Sterling on "Mad Men"
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Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
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Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
1/27/07 at 3:32pm
- Joined: June 2000
- Location: Colorado
- Post Count: 7,526
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
I just thought I'd toss in what seemed like an obvious factor to Ofelia eating the grapes, which is the obvious Biblical parallel of the apple. That was my first impression, at least. In the end, I personally go with the "enchantment" theory.Impressive film.
They flutter behind you, your possible pasts.
Some bright-eyed and crazy, some frightened and lost.
1/27/07 at 11:55pm
- Joined: July 2002
- Post Count: 1,326
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
Vidal kinda reminded me of a young Bryan Ferry..
1/28/07 at 8:34am
- Joined: February 2000
- Location: Somewhere west of St. Louis MO
- Post Count: 5,064
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
You see the comparison to Adam and the apple is more in line with my way of thinking except without enchantment, it is about temptation and greed without thinking of consequences, no matter what the warning signs are.
-Kevin M.
See You Next Wednesday
See You Next Wednesday
1/29/07 at 2:29pm
- Joined: December 1998
- Post Count: 7,277
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
I thought you guys might like to see this. I mentioned earlier I was going to do a Faun sculpt, but its hard to find decent reference pics. There was a Pan article in Makeup Artist magazine a couple months back so I ordered it figuring theres be a few good pics in it.I remember in a interview where Del toro had mentioned that the legs werent all CGI and they worked out a way for his legs to actually move the Fauns legs with some CGI erasing. Heres a pic of it. Pretty cool.
Also picked up the soundtrack, its really great and recommended if you like classical music.
1/30/07 at 12:05am
- Joined: December 2004
- Location: Coral Gables, FL
- Post Count: 289
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
Finally caught this on Sunday.I have really mixed feelings about this. I just found myself completely unmoved, which is strange, as I usually find movies with this type of theme to be quite a charm. It actually reminded me thematically of The Fountain (which I adore), and yet, for some reason it didn't hit me at all. I figured perhaps it was simply because it was both in Spanish and the main character was a young girl, but I feel that is nonsense, I've seen plenty of foreign films and films with characters I don't have a great deal of identity with that are amongst my favorite.
I certainly thought it was a technically and asethetically stunning film. That I can't deny. I'll also buy it in HD, if it reaches the proper venue. Perhaps repeat viewing will add some power to it for me.
I honestly feel it may have worked better for me if more time was spent in the fantasy world, as it was just so riveting; but alas, I'll take what little we were given.
1/30/07 at 1:25pm
- Joined: July 2002
- Post Count: 1,326
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by Mike.P
I honestly feel it may have worked better for me if more time was spent in the fantasy world, as it was just so riveting; but alas, I'll take what little we were given.
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I'm completely the opposite. I fell in love with the film half way through when I realized I was actually more rivetted by the real world narrative than the fantasy excursions. The fantasy sequence were sublime, but Vidal was just such a GREAT screen character. And the tension and suspense exponentially ramps up in the second half of the picture.
Warning Spoiler! Click to show
the rebel capture, Vidal's discovery of the doctor and housekeeper, the mother's condition, Ofelia's desperation
Of course, it was only by the end credits that I realized the film was a masterpiece. Because it was only then that full weight of these parallel narratives hit me at the deepest emotional levels. It was no longer two narratives - just one brilliant tapestry.
1/30/07 at 3:55pm
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
Of course, it's not the same movie had Mercedes simply slashed open Vidal's jugular and let him die instead of just stabbing him and slicing his mouth. End of Vidal, end of the "threat", and what to do about Ofelia's fantasy life? But the film begins with Ofelia near death, so Mercedes had to let Vidal live to get to that point in the opening, but it doesn't make sense for Mercedes to let Vidal live at that point, it's a weak story point, so the sum of the parts don't quite make the film a masterpiece in my eyes."Jee-sus, it's like Iwo Jima out there" - Roger Sterling on "Mad Men"
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1/30/07 at 5:24pm
- Joined: December 2004
- Location: Coral Gables, FL
- Post Count: 289
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by Patrick Sun
Of course, it's not the same movie had Mercedes simply slashed open Vidal's jugular and let him die instead of just stabbing him and slicing his mouth. End of Vidal, end of the "threat", and what to do about Ofelia's fantasy life? But the film begins with Ofelia near death, so Mercedes had to let Vidal live to get to that point in the opening, but it doesn't make sense for Mercedes to let Vidal live at that point, it's a weak story point, so the sum of the parts don't quite make the film a masterpiece in my eyes.
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I definately agree with you here, Patrick.
1/30/07 at 5:38pm
- Joined: February 2002
- Post Count: 1,845
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Patrick Sun
Of course, it's not the same movie had Mercedes simply slashed open Vidal's jugular and let him die instead of just stabbing him and slicing his mouth. End of Vidal, end of the "threat", and what to do about Ofelia's fantasy life? But the film begins with Ofelia near death, so Mercedes had to let Vidal live to get to that point in the opening, but it doesn't make sense for Mercedes to let Vidal live at that point, it's a weak story point, so the sum of the parts don't quite make the film a masterpiece in my eyes.
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I can buy her slicing him but not killing him - she's defiant, but simply doesn't have what it takes to take another's life. Her brother shoots him in the end if I remember correctly. He is a hardened killer at that point.
Now, if she had been the one to shoot him - then you'd have a weak story point.
1/30/07 at 6:32pm
- Joined: June 2000
- Location: Colorado
- Post Count: 7,526
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
Quote:
| He is a hardened killer at that point. |
Besides, as you point out, the story required Vidal to live a bit longer.
They flutter behind you, your possible pasts.
Some bright-eyed and crazy, some frightened and lost.
1/30/07 at 7:35pm
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
Have y'all forgotten what Mercedes went through? (being chased to inches of her own death, plus she saw the brutality that Vidal inflicted upon other resistance fighters up close and person) She should have sliced Vidal's jugular at that point in the story. Once she has the guts to stick the knife in Vidal's mouth and slice his mouth/cheek open, she has the guts to slash his jugular just as easily.She doesn't because Vidal had to stay alive solely for the entire story to fit together, but given the build-up, Vidal should have died when Mercedes got the drop on him. That's a story weakness. One that can't be readily explained away given the events that preceded Vidal's goring by Mercedes. It just rang false for me, and that's the potential plothole you open yourself up to when you start the film's opening with a scene from the end of the story.
"Jee-sus, it's like Iwo Jima out there" - Roger Sterling on "Mad Men"
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1/30/07 at 8:31pm
- Joined: February 1999
- Location: Port Orchard, WA
- Post Count: 695
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by Chris Farmer
Another question about the movie. Was I the only one that got the impression that the Captain either raped Ofelia's mother or otherwise got her pregnant in order to force her to marry him? He got way too cautious when she was asked at dinner how the two of them met. The mother blows the story off, but it seemed to me that between the Captain's facial expressions and her word choices that there was a lot that went unsaid in that part of the story.
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I got the impression that the Captain was somehow tied to her husband's death. She met him once before, then later, after her husband had died, they met again. That was when the Captain got uncomfortable.
I really liked this move. The part when Ofelia is "talking" to her brother, and begging him to come out easy and she'd make him a Prince was heartfelt. I'm glad I saw it with a friend of mine, instead of my wife, or we may have bawled. (Being parents of 2 young'ins.)
Sad movie, yet strangely beautiful. Even taking it as her becoming a Princess at the end, was still sad.
Doug
1/30/07 at 11:35pm
- Joined: July 2002
- Post Count: 1,326
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by JohnRice
And he wasn't a hardened killer when Mercedes had a shot at him?
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Quentin is referring to Mercedes' brother - not Vidal.
1/31/07 at 12:38am
- Joined: July 2002
- Post Count: 1,326
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by Patrick Sun
Once she has the guts to stick the knife in Vidal's mouth and slice his mouth/cheek open, she has the guts to slash his jugular just as easily.
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Nope, don't follow that logic. One is methodically and permanently scarring his vanity - a big aspect of his character and why the 'cheshire grin' sequence has symbolic importance to the narrative beyond mere plot mechanics (I frickin' love the sequence when he is alone stiching himself up. Brilliant acting
). She clearly warns him not to touch Ofelia when doing this. It is not an act of defense (like the initial stabbing in the back), but neither is it murder.The other would be MURDER....the premeditated kind.
Sorry, not equivalent acts. Not in the real world, nor the magic-realism of Guillermo del Toro.
1/31/07 at 6:09am
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
We are seeing 2 different movies, I suspect. I see a woman about to be tortured and who knows what else, and you see her just giving him a smiling scar as being enough to stop his innate cruelty to anyone who opposes his will? Sorry, still not buying it. Being part of the resistance movement meant she was in a war, and just as "justified" to not only save herself in times, but also in taking out strategic targets when the situation warranted it on the enemy, Vidal easily being one of them as the commanding officer in the area."Jee-sus, it's like Iwo Jima out there" - Roger Sterling on "Mad Men"
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1/31/07 at 7:43am
- Joined: March 2001
- Post Count: 512
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
I guess I saw the scene of Mercedes escape a different way. She could have easily killed Vidal with either of her two initial knife strikes (to the upper back and upper chest) I'm a doctor and trust me wounds in those areas are easily fatal. Like Mercedes, I assumed she had killed Vidal and all that was left was wait for him to die. Knowing that his subordinates would be around soon to check things out, she tried to get out before others discovered him.\"The old that is strong does not wither, deep roots are not reached by the frost.\"
1/31/07 at 10:36am
- Joined: February 2002
- Post Count: 1,845
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Patrick Sun
We are seeing 2 different movies, I suspect. I see a woman about to be tortured and who knows what else, and you see her just giving him a smiling scar as being enough to stop his innate cruelty to anyone who opposes his will? Sorry, still not buying it. Being part of the resistance movement meant she was in a war, and just as "justified" to not only save herself in times, but also in taking out strategic targets when the situation warranted it on the enemy, Vidal easily being one of them as the commanding officer in the area.
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We're not seeing 2 different movies. But, I would venture to suggest that you have seen a LOT of movies! So many, that killing someone is a plot point...and, an easy one at that. You might as well argue that the Doctor should have killed Vidal with a simple OD heroin shot or poisoning his drink! Hey, why not? It's easy, right? After all, he was part of the resistance too. And, just as justified to kill the monster.
Unfortunately, real life is never as easy as in the movies. Which is exactly why the Doctor never kills Vidal. Which is exactly why Mercedes describes herself as weak and hates herself for working under Vidal (let's face it, she could have killed him a hundred times over and never did...she kept taking the abuse and watching him do his evil...it's exactly why she hated herself).
Nope...the thing I don't buy is that you think killing someone is a simple plot point of logic. It's not. It may be easy for Rambo. But, I doubt I would be able to do it as easily if faced with it. Even if the situation justified my actions.
1/31/07 at 10:38am
- Joined: February 2002
- Post Count: 1,845
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by MikeRS
Quentin is referring to Mercedes' brother - not Vidal.
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Correct. I know 'hardened killer' certainly sounds like Vidal. But, Mercedes' brother is a resistance fighter in the field. Another type of hardened killer, but hardened all the same.
1/31/07 at 11:01am
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
Again, I point to the situation that Mercedes was faced with: she was going to be tortured and perhaps raped and killed. That is a tremendously heightened "kill-or-be-killed" situation to be put into, and when Mercedes gets the upper hand, I don't think she could reasonably expect Vidal to stay away from Ofelia just because she was strong enough to slice open his mouth/cheek, not when Vidal would kill with little provocation or out of simple annoyance in the past running time of the film (who knows how many others he had killed capriciously under the auspices of war and his rank in the military). Had Mercedes not sliced Vidal's face open, I would have given her the benefit of the doubt that she wasn't emotionally strong enough to do the deed, but all bets are off after the pre-meditated face slice. Mercedes simply lets Vidal live because the script had to have him live longer to do more bad things later.The doctor probably had some form of the hippocractic oath inhibiting his behavior for the most part, and it got him shot in the back.
"Jee-sus, it's like Iwo Jima out there" - Roger Sterling on "Mad Men"
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1/31/07 at 1:04pm
- Joined: July 2002
- Post Count: 1,326
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
So I just found out I'm in good company.......Darabont on "Pan's Labyrinth"
Quote:
| I think PAN'S LABYRINTH is a masterpiece. The real deal. A perfect film. A gem. |
http://www.deltorofilms.com/Details....uncementid=460
1/31/07 at 1:19pm
- Joined: July 2002
- Post Count: 1,326
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Patrick Sun
Had Mercedes not sliced Vidal's face open, I would have given her the benefit of the doubt that she wasn't emotionally strong enough to do the deed, but all bets are off after the pre-meditated face slice.
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Wrong. There is a huge distinction that you keep ignoring.
One is MURDER......One is not.
It's that simple.
For crying out loud, the film's narrative focuses on how Mercedes sees her brother as different than her because of the war/rebellion. How she percieves him as becoming colder and hardened. And lo and behold, it is him (not her!) who actually does the deed at the end of the film.
1/31/07 at 1:25pm
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
I would posit, it is not murder, but self-preservation at that point."Jee-sus, it's like Iwo Jima out there" - Roger Sterling on "Mad Men"
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1/31/07 at 1:47pm
- Joined: May 2002
- Post Count: 3,854
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
Patrick, I think Stephen makes a good point: she probably already thought he was going to die (I certainly did) after she stabbed him in the back and the chest. The face thing was just a bit of added torture.The bigger problem with this sequence is not that she didn't slice his jugular, but that he so easily continued to live after taking two stabs to the torso.
1/31/07 at 1:52pm
- Joined: July 2002
- Post Count: 1,326
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
Self-preservation was stabbing his back/injuring him when she broke free.Nope, for her to (your words) slash open Vidal's jugular, she would clearly and methodically be murdering him.
There is a clear distinction between that and scarring his face.
Sorry, but there just is.
1/31/07 at 2:02pm
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
It's called neutralizing an immediate threat, and self-preservation (kill or be killed), not murder. The cut was stupid and silly considering what she already knew of his viciousness. Anyhow, I still maintain this all went down mainly for story purposes, and for gross-out purposes (the subsequent stitching of the cut). Okay, I'm done with this point."Jee-sus, it's like Iwo Jima out there" - Roger Sterling on "Mad Men"
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1/31/07 at 2:43pm
- Joined: July 2002
- Post Count: 1,326
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
If she cut his jug in that moment, it would be Murder. She is not a murderer. When she slashed his mouth, she warned him to keep away from Ofelia at the same time. There is clear distinction between leaving him to death, and warning him (with a violent act) to keep away from Ofelia in the future.These would be two completely different acts during the process of escaping Vidal. In both cases she would be escaping him in the moment. But in your scenario she would have capacity to take his life methodically.
And I agree that we are at a impasse here, Patrick. Because I believe this quote is completely relevant to your disposition.
Quote:
| We're not seeing 2 different movies. But, I would venture to suggest that you have seen a LOT of movies! So many, that killing someone is a plot point...and, an easy one at that. You might as well argue that the Doctor should have killed Vidal with a simple OD heroin shot or poisoning his drink! Hey, why not? It's easy, right? After all, he was part of the resistance too. And, just as justified to kill the monster. Unfortunately, real life is never as easy as in the movies. Which is exactly why the Doctor never kills Vidal. Which is exactly why Mercedes describes herself as weak and hates herself for working under Vidal (let's face it, she could have killed him a hundred times over and never did...she kept taking the abuse and watching him do his evil...it's exactly why she hated herself). Nope...the thing I don't buy is that you think killing someone is a simple plot point of logic. It's not. It may be easy for Rambo. But, I doubt I would be able to do it as easily if faced with it. Even if the situation justified my actions. |
1/31/07 at 7:15pm
- Joined: November 1998
- Post Count: 4,490
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
Better late than never - just got back from seeing this. What a beautiful, magnificent, tension laden, heart breaking movie. Amazing. I loved it.And yes it is a classic.
Every man is my superior, in that I may learn from him.
1/31/07 at 9:15pm
- Joined: July 2002
- Post Count: 1,326
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
Here's the thing, Patrick. You keep implying that this is an example of poor screenwriting because the only reason he didn't have Mercedes kill him right there is because Vidal must live to kill Ofelia. As if Del Toro had somehow written himself in a corner. But how? He could have just as easily had Mercedes flee after stabbing him in the back. The aftermath would have been the same on a plot level. Mercedes get's away and is saved by the rebels - while Vidal is temporararly incapacitated with an injury. It doesn't change anything on a plot progression level. The specifics of the scene that perturb you, are not predicated by the aftermath anymore than if she escapes post stabbing him in the back.But cinema is about more than mere plot mechanics. It's a very visual medium. and especially in a film like this, incredibly subtextual and symbolic. EVERYTHING happens for a reason. And there are clear character/subtextual reasons (pertaining to Vidal and Mercedes) for why Del Toro:
- has Mercedes realize she hasn't killed Vidal.
- chooses not to kill him before she escapes.
- scars something that hurts him the most (his vanity).
Vidal is not just "evil incarnate" as your review postulated. He is the most subtle and interesting characterization in the film. He's to be compared to Fiennes' Goth - not Mike frickin' Myers. And having a scene devoted to him dealing with his disfiguration isn't just there for "gross out" purposes. It's one of the most fascinating and well acted scenes of the year.
Now I've already articulated enough times why I feel your reasoning - that it would only be realistic for her to MURDER Vidal in that scene - is patently false. So I'm not going to venture there any longer. But the fact is, Guillermo had filmic storytelling reasons for having this "twist" in the scene. And he wasn't 'forced into any kind of corner' when he chose to do this.
2/1/07 at 7:20am
- Joined: October 2000
- Location: 30033
- Post Count: 229
Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread
Possibly of interest to fans in the ATL area:SPECIAL APPEARANCE!
Join us for a Q&A with PAN'S LABYRINTH star Doug Jones this Friday, February 2nd after the 7:40 show. Also on Friday, Jones will introduce both the 7:40 and 10:25 shows.
(This is the Midtown Art Cinema at Virginia and Monroe.)
