Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

I just got back from watching this, and I must say that I'm speechless. I haven't felt this way about a movie in a very long time. Will watch this again soon.

Juan

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

Was I the only one who thought the faun reminded them of Jigsaw's puppet in the Saw franchise?

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

Yes, hopefully. (sick of SAW, HOSTEL, etc., etc.)

I read through a bit of that creator's journal that was posted a page or two back. I was excited to see what looked like a pic of Ofelia's green dress with the caption of what looked like "Alicia." Was that his original name? I was totally thinking "Alice in Wonderland" when I saw her dinner dress which matched the look in all but color. She even went down a hole, though one in a tree and not with a rabbit.

I wonder about a couple things and how they would affect how I saw the movie. We ended with the image of the girl's last lifeblood dripping away (as we opened the movie with the reverse of that...give the movie credit for making forget about that initial image while watching!). We know that in her mind (or in her reality) she has "gone to a better place." Maybe it is the place we all go, maybe it is really her fairy kingdom or maybe it is endorphins kicking in at the last minute. Who knows. But I wonder how much of a perception change would occur if the last image we see is reversed. We see her dripping the blood into the "portal" and the next we see her in a golden hall with her parents and adoring people. If that is the last image, does it change the ending significantly?

Also, the watch. I was really into the Captain's villainy and was curious about his motivations throughout (I don't buy the "he was born bad" thing that many attribute to fascist monsters like him). But what I was trying to remember was the ticking of the watch. Did it start and stop throughout the film at certain moments or was it because at times he became aware of it and others he didn't? Was the watch his 'conscience' attempting to kick in (his father's last words) or was it me attaching too much meaning to it?

A side note on the Captiain, one of those attached articles had a neat bit on that actor. He was apparently cast way against type...a romantic leading man/romantic comedy type of guy. Aren't those the best cast decisions, some time? Cast the most likeable guys in roles they aren't meant to play. Or the opposite, like casting Christopher Walken in cute and entertaining roles vs. his usual scary. Sometimes it just works like a charm.

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

Loved the movie. Want the DVD. Im attempting a Faun sculpture(but lower body reference is scarce). Hopefully the DVD will have a photo gallery.

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

The watch is a great piece of material, well used.

It is part of the many thematic motifs dealing with legend vs. reality. The Captain lives with the 'burden' of the legend of his father. He died bravely and heroically, and the watch is the legacy. It stopped ticking when his father broke it, but the Captain devotes a ton of attention to it to keep it working - to keep the legend alive. He plans on giving it to his son to keep the legend alive.

Which makes his end and the line 'he will never know you' so great.

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

Del Toro did the same thing in The Devil's Backbone:
Warning Spoiler! Click to show

(Admin note - spoiler text added, not everyone has seen "The Devil's Backbone" yet.)

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

I disliked the movie on almost every level that matters. The technical aspects are done well, the prologue and epilogue are beautiful bits of filmmaking, and I liked the character of Mercedes, but that is where my praise of the film stops.

The violence was gratuitous and way too graphic. Showing what they did with the rabbit hunters at the beginning was enough to show what kind of person the captain was, so every other bit of brutality just felt like overkill.

The fantasy scenes tended to be creepy and disturbing; even the faun, who turns out to be okay at the end, is ugly and suspicious.

The girl was not a bad character, but she sure acted like a bonehead sometimes. The prime example is taking the grape from the table. She has been told that her life depends on not eating anything at that feast, and the pictures clearly show what the creature is capable of, so she has no excuse for that bit of stupidity.

Graphic violence and negative emotions are not what I go to the movies for. I will recommend Pan's Labyrinth to nobody.

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

edit....wrong thread.

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

One of my favorite scenes is her encounter with him after completion of the first task. This undisputably evil looking thing which somehow managed to overcome her (and hour) inital apprehensions began to convey such a quiet menace this time around that she (and the audience) literally recoiled. He just seemed a tad too happy about her success. Right there I was convinced that he was evil. Fantastic scene.

It was obvious she was under an enchantement of sorts. Her treatment of the fairies demonstrates that more than anything. Perhaps a LOTR style "ring lust" drone would have helped

It's certainly not an easy movie to recommend. I only liked it (while most here seemd to have loved it), but will watch it again for sure.

The similarities with The Devil Backbone are stronger than are being acknowledged IMO: The remote setting during or after the Spanish Civil War, echoes of which can be felt all around, a child dealing with some supernatural elements, a good looking, utterly viscious villain with no redeeming quality whatsoever, and the occasional voice over.

--
H

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

Chucks smarter than I am

(just remembered)

Also the fairies and the book pointed to the middle lock. She decided to open the left one instead. Since the book and fairies were wrong maybe she figured it was ok to eat the grapes.

Have to see this again.

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

Ofelia's taking of the grape is absolutely critical to the major theme of the film. The Captain does what he is told. The girl disobeys. She later disobeys to save her brothers life, even at the cost of her dreams.

She does NOT do what she is told...just because she is told to do it. Just like the doctor. Or Mercedes. del Toro had a great quote talking about the film...(paraphrased - see below post)disobediance is the beginning of responsibility. She is under NO spell...that is critical to the themes of the film

The faun was not supposed to be warm and fuzzy...Mercedes even warns Ofelia about fauns. The ambiguity with the faun was perfect.

I have recommended Pan's to everyone I know who is adult and open-minded. It is as razor sharp as any film in years. 6 Oscar noms for a fantasy film in a foreign language shows that it is an affecting film.

It was less violent than The Departed. As for negative emotions...I found the film profoundly human and hopeful. I'll take grit and sacrifice over placid and pedantic Hollywood endings any day of the week.

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

Yeah, Del Toro sees 'blind obedience' as depressing human behavior, with it's strong link to fascism throughout history.

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

The complete quote, with accompanying info is:

The key to del Toro's maze of a film is contained in this brief phrase, printed in large letters in his diary: In Consiliis Nostrum Fatum Nostrum Est - in our choices lies our fate. "In the archway of the labyrinth, you have this written. I don't [do] a close-up, but I put it there. The whole point of the movie was to show that disobedience is the preamble to responsibility."

I mostly agree with that, which is why the theme stuck with me. I'd say it's *A* preamble...not *THE* preamble. Other elements are required

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

Another question about the movie. Was I the only one that got the impression that the Captain either raped Ofelia's mother or otherwise got her pregnant in order to force her to marry him? He got way too cautious when she was asked at dinner how the two of them met. The mother blows the story off, but it seemed to me that between the Captain's facial expressions and her word choices that there was a lot that went unsaid in that part of the story.

And the more I think about it, the more I feel the movie doesn't really hold up as just being in Ofelia's head. Particularly, there are three things that don't work for me if it didn't happen. One, Ofelia's mother started getting truly, medically better when the mandrake was put under her bed, and immediately relapsed after the mandrake was killed. Two, Ofelia managed to escape from a room with one door that was being guarded without being seen. Finally, the Captain is right behind her in the labyrinth during the climax, then the walls open up to allow her direct access to the center, making the Captain walk the full length of the labyrinth and giving the faun enough time to try and convince her to spill her brother's blood. He was too close behind her for that conversation to have taken place unless something happened to put more distance between them.

Oh, and I think Ofelia eating the grapes was purely a matter of dramatic necessity. With that terrifying, nightmare-inducing creature in the room, the last thing I'd do is stop and eat his dinner. Especially if I'd been told my life depended on eating nothing. I'd get that dagger then haul ass outta there as fast as my legs could take me. But that said, Ofelia needed to disobey to both put her in a more desperate situation going into the climax and make the point that she made her own decisions, so even if it didn't make sense from the character's point of view, it was necessary for the story.

Wow but I loved this movie.

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

Patrick, it's funny you mention the Saw franchise, because up until now, I thought Jigsaw was the vilest villain of 2006, but Captain Vidal changed all that.

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

"And the more I think about it, the more I feel the movie doesn't really hold up as just being in Ofelia's head."

Yea after Capt Vidal locked Ofelia in her room, he said to the guard if anyone tried to get in, to kill her. Theres no way she could have gotten out of the room without being noticed.

Didnt Mercedes see the chalk line? I want to see this again on saturday.

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

I thought the exact same thing. I assumed she probably convinced herself it wasn't rape but I assume it was forced on her. At the very least, Captain Vidal took advantage of her after the husband died, of that I have no doubt. He clearly had no interest in her daughter and if it was between the life of the mother and the life of the child, save the child.

As for it being "real," Ofelia is clever enough to find a way out of a room in an old mill that might not include going out the front door. All Mercedes saw was a chalk outline which shows that at least Ofelia believes in her magic.

As for the grape, in addition to the symbolic gesture of it, there was a practical gesture. She had just gone to her room without dinner, if I recall. She was a hungry little girl and what could be so bad?

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

"Ofelia is clever enough to find a way out of a room in an old mill that might not include going out the front door."


But wasnt she in the attic?

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

Regardless of the hunger or the youth of the protagonist, or the attractiveness of the food, the setting does not lend itself to any kind of casual consumption, quite the contrary. The resourceful young girl we've known up to that point wouldn't (entirely) willingly commit such a potentially fatal indiscretion in a dungeon where it's clear that scores of children have lost their lives, mere feet away from the the most loathsome creature to have soiled the screens in ages, while her misson clock is ticking.

The staging of the scene left very little room for interpretation for where I stand. The close up of her face, of the grapes, her behaviour (she seemed downright annoyed by the fairies). If disobedience was the point, the language of the scene strongly suggests otherwise.

More, Ofelia didn't disobey at the end for the sake of doing so. She did out of love for her sibling. Similarly, despite his cute line about the subject, Doc disobeyed out of 1- compassion and 2- self-preservation, not necessarely in that order.

Blind disobedience is no better than blind obedience. Heck, at least blind obedience gives you the peace of the gun . And disobedience may be a preamble to responsability, but only a preamble.

--
H - what's the "(dis)obedience" count in this post?

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

The way she came to a stop, wrinkled her eyesbrows and looked at the food(with the harp strings in the background) made me think she may have been "drawn" to eat them as well.

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

Me personally I saw it as a parable to the dinner scene with the Captain (which if you look at the dining room of both they are quite similar, even down to the fireplace being behind both the captain and the beast), they all say "we are hear by choice" but there are consequences for eating from the table of a "monster" no matter how easy or attractive it may seem.
I don't think Ofelia was under any spell but rather let her own greed & desire get the better of her, influence her better or "moral" judgment just like most of the people at the Captain's table had done.

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

To support Holadems view someone from IMDB wrote "I also believe that she was enchanted into eating the food. I read once that if you're caught in a fairy world, you shouldn't eat or drink anything because you'll never want to leave. Yes she was hungry. Yes she was defiant. But she ate the grapes because they looked soooo gooood. The fairies couldn't stop her. She couldn't stop herself."

I saw this again tonight because I couldnt wait until the weekend and caught something I missed the first time. When Ofelia comes back to the portal the second time she is looking at the tablet. The Faun says that its him and her on the tablet. Ofelia replies "Whos the baby?" and the Faun changes the subject. This tells me they had a awareness of future events. If so then they prob knew she would fail the second test and its why they gave her another chance(On second viewing, the Faun seems to be showing her alot of sympathy in this scene). Also the fairies Pale Man killed were alive again in the palace, unless they were different fairies. Maybe it was a lesson for her to learn about the consequences of her actions/choices.

This film is full of viewer interpretations.

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

Guillermo del Toro was Terry's guest on Fresh Air today. If you'd like to hear a fascinating 50-minute interview, you can listen to it, anytime, at npr.org

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

That was exactly my point, her (and everyone's) choices have consequences so choose wisely....pretty much the point of the film IMO.

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

I've scanned this thread with one eye closed since I haven't seen PL yet. Still not playing here. ....but did read a bit about The Devil's Backbone. I noticed this last night at my local Blockbuster in the foreign film section.

You all who have seen this and/or PL think it's good to see Devil's Backbone first or is it necessary? Thoughts? I'd like to rent it but don't want to spoil anything from Labrynth either.

Thanks

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

It's not necessary to see Backbone before Pan, as they are not connected plot wise, but they do make great companion pieces as they are both allegories of the Spanish Civil War and it's consequences.

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

As noted above, both movies share common elements, similar time and settings and at times, tone, but the stories (and themes IIRC) are completely unrelated, one will not spoil the other, any more than Schindler's list would spoil Saving Private Ryan.

I should mention that I find DB one of the most depressing flicks around. It's a good movie, but I am in no hurry to see it again.

--
H

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

I like DB a lot - in fact it was on cable last week and I watched it twice.

I would recommend you see it for its own sake. It's one of the best ghost movies ever.

As already mentioned, Pan shares some elements with DB but they are very different films...good campanion pieces but it's not necessary to see them together.

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

Thanks for the tips. ...think I'll give it a rental next week. Went there earlier tonight and it was gone. Perhaps there's a HTF member lurking around in my neck of the woods and beat me to it.

Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

I just saw PL tonight and I really enjoyed the film. As a matter of fact, I'm not entirely sure how to describe what I feel; all I can say is wow. On a side note, I've been humming, whistling the lullaby since I left the theater.
I wasn't sure about seeing a foreign language film with subs, but after a few minutes, I was watching the picture and just kind of absorbing the subs. I really am going to give some effort to get my wife to go see this.
Is it me, or did Pale Man look like he was fresh out of a Tool video, haha?