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Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth: Official Discussion Thread

#31
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12/29/06 at 1:21pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh.C
Is this movie out already? Where can I find it?
It opened in limited release today, 12/29. According to the official site, it's in NY, LA, San Francisco and Chicago. More cities will be added on January 12.

The film is stunning. It's so good that it may even overcome some viewers' aversion to subtitles.

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#32
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12/29/06 at 10:26pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

I really really would love to see this in the theater, but since I live in a town where we don't even get some bigger hollywood pics, I'm not holding my breath for it. Fortunately, I believe Warner Bros. is doing the domestic release (did I hear this correctly??) so hopefully we'll be getting this on Blu-Ray before too long
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#33
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1/11/07 at 12:20am
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

Pretty much my interpretation Quentin (and the film definitely kept the choices wide open), sad yet...
Warning Spoiler! Click to show
Happy in a way, she believed in the child's viewpoint at the end therefore she died happy. I liked how there was equal signs given for either choice, the chalk mark on the wall giving rise to the question...how did she get out of the room?
...my girlfriend decided on the happy interpretation and there was equal reason for her to see it that way....I suppose this is another one of those films that holds a mirror up to the viewer's soul and asks "what do you see?", a great film.
-Kevin M.

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#34
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1/11/07 at 1:17am
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

BTW:
Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Sheets:
The only thing that connects The Devil's Backbone to Pan's Labyrinth is that both films are set during the Spanish Civil War.
Actually Pan is set during WWII.
-Kevin M.

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#35
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1/11/07 at 11:44am
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin M
BTW:

Actually Pan is set during WWII.

I wouldn't go that far. It is 1944 in Spain. So, DDay is happening, but Spain is not involved - they are still dealing with Franco and the aftermath of the Spanish Civil War, which 'ends' in 1939.
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#36
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1/11/07 at 11:47am
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

Speaking of the Spanish Civil War, my grandpa's wife is Spanish, and her father spent 5 years in prison simply because someone reported him for calling Francisco Franco a "shithead". I do appreciate these movies for dealing with the setting because it's so often (not surprisingly) vastly overshadowed by WWII.
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#37
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1/11/07 at 12:58pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

This isn't playing near me and not going to this weekend either! ...Hopefully it will start here soon.
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#38
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1/11/07 at 1:24pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

Quote:
they are still dealing with Franco and the aftermath of the Spanish Civil War, which 'ends' in 1939.
True, but I thought you were suggesting that it was along the same timeline as Backbone, as I re-read your post I see that you didn't say this at all. My bad.
-Kevin M.

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#39
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1/11/07 at 3:16pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

I think the sad vs. happy ending is, like The Fountain, absolutely irrelevant to the themes. It's not critical to the narrative. FWIW, del Toro has his opinions, but he did allow some room for interpretation. I don't think it makes a difference either way.

Because...what's real to you? That's real.
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#40
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1/11/07 at 3:36pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

Superb film, in my top 5 for 2006. Highly recommended.
Dave hören... auf, Wille stoppen Sie Dave..., Stoppen Sie Dave..., Mein Gehirn geht..., Ich bin Gefühl es..., Ich bin Gefühl es..., Ich bin ängstlich Dave...
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#41
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1/11/07 at 4:02pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Mayer
I think the sad vs. happy ending is, like The Fountain, absolutely irrelevant to the themes. It's not critical to the narrative. FWIW, del Toro has his opinions, but he did allow some room for interpretation.

I don't know what Del Toro's opinions about it are. Anywhere I can read? I know you got to hear him speak (lucky devil).

I think the sad vs. happy ending DOES have a LOT to do with the birth/rebirth theme. As much with what the baby has to do with it as she has to do with it. (I'm trying to discuss the theme without spoiling) In this theme - you would focus on the the happy interpretation.

It also has a lot to do with the theme of growing up. The "Peter Pan" theme, if you will. In this theme, you would focus on the sad interpretation.

As for the theme of obedience vs. choice, here it is a little vague...but, she makes her choice and the ending is a direct result of that choice. I guess it's not relevant WHICH ending, because the choice is more important.

In The Fountain, Tommy's final revelation makes everything that came before irrelevant. It is just part of the journey. But, the end goes only one place as a direct result of that revelation.

Ofelia is different - her choice reveals two truths. Three, if you consider the future of the baby (symbolic, I think, of Spain itself).
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#42
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1/11/07 at 4:38pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

Quentin,
I didn't get to hear GdT talk about that...I read it in an interview at CHUD. He favors what you would consider the "happy" ending I think happy and sad are both tragic and uplifting...common theme this year.
Hey buddy...did you just see a real bright light?
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#43
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1/11/07 at 5:21pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

The symbolism of the baby is clear, but "he will never know..." doesn't wash (in my mind anyway) with the whole theme of not forgetting the violence of the past but learning from it...what will the baby (Spain's future) learn then?
"He will never.." might not have a thing to do with it other than a moment for the audience to feel some retribution for what had transpired before.
-Kevin M.

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#44
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1/11/07 at 8:36pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin M
The symbolism of the baby is clear, but "he will never know..." doesn't wash (in my mind anyway) with the whole theme of not forgetting the violence of the past but learning from it...what will the baby (Spain's future) learn then?
"He will never.." might not have a thing to do with it other than a moment for the audience to feel some retribution for what had transpired before.

Good point, Kevin. If He (Spain) will never know his father is a fascist, how can he grow from it?

Maybe He will never know the proud, honorable fascist (that Vidal thinks of himself as)? Or, maybe you're right...
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#45
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1/12/07 at 12:23pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

Can someone comment on the amount/type of violence in the film? I'm not a fan of the current torture footage that passes for horror these days, and while I'm sure that's not what this is like, I'd like to know what I'm getting into.

\"I was wandering the woods, thinking about Christ. If He was a carpenter, I wondered what he charged for bookshelves.\"

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#46
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1/12/07 at 1:12pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

You've got no worries, Dennis. They usually cut away before the heavy violence save for a couple kill shots.

It is very violent for what is, essentially, a partial fairy tale. We're just warning people away from taking children. This is an adult film.
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#47
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1/12/07 at 2:05pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

Quentin (and all),
Here's a very solid interview discussing the film, plus what cool guys Innaritu, Cuaron, and GdT are. Some solid nuggets of information in there.

Click me
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#48
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1/12/07 at 6:31pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

Quote:
You've got no worries, Dennis. They usually cut away before the heavy violence save for a couple kill shots.
I dunno, the scene with the bottle and the two peasants early in the film is pretty graphic and not shied away from, I heard more than a few gasps from the audience (including my girlfriend) and I myself said "jesus..." under my breath, that scene is pretty savage in IMO

EDIT: You know, the scene with the..um.."cheek" is pretty graphic as well as the unflinching scenes of gunshots to peoples faces, I guess I pretty much I disagree with you on this one Quentin. IMO it is a very violent film.

BTW (from the linked article):
Quote:
Del Toro believes that how you interpret the ending of the film works like a mirror test; it tells you more than you need to know about your belief system. “I know which side of the fence I stand on,” he says. “When you see the movie, even if you see it with two, three different people, you get mixed reactions to the last ten minutes. People say it’s all in her head or it’s all real.”
Ah Ha! Mirror test...told Ya! .....not that this kind of ending is anything new, nor are the reasons behind such endings.
-Kevin M.

See You Next Wednesday

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#49
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1/13/07 at 10:15am
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

Another great film in my top 5 from this year that deals with the theme of choice and the part it plays in the birth of a civilized nation is The Proposition.

It is also a very violent and adult film. But, it is friggin' masterful and haunting. If you liked Pan's, try The Proposition - you can rent it now.
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#50
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1/13/07 at 6:26pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin M
I dunno, the scene with the bottle and the two peasants early in the film is pretty graphic and not shied away from, I heard more than a few gasps from the audience (including my girlfriend) and I myself said "jesus..." under my breath, that scene is pretty savage in IMO

Yeah, I think that scene veered into to Irreversible/Gaspar Noé territory. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if "head smashed at the Rectum" was Guillermo's inspiration.

I don't consider the violence in this film gratuitous or excessive because it all seems part of the tapestry of the narrative. It informs character and evokes tone. It's part of why the close of the film leaves such an emotional wallop.

This is the only film in memory that completely evokes the brooding darkness (and coldness) I feel when reading the original Brothers Grimm tales.
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#51
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1/13/07 at 7:49pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

Oh no, I don't think the violence is ever gratuitous as it has a definite purpose in the plot.....I would call it "Unflinching". This is the very harsh reality of the times that the mother was warning Ophilia about.
-Kevin M.

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#52
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1/13/07 at 8:44pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

As I think about it more, I easily realize how other people could take the more somber interpretation. The film even points it out to us in the first half hour, when Ofelia asks Mercedes "Do you believe in fairies?" I guess deep down I still believe in some kind of magic.
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#53
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1/13/07 at 10:51pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

Makes me wonder if Del Toro is also trying to say something about the benefits and dangers of clinging on to one's inner child in such a dangerous world....it can aid you in some ways but it can also put you in danger.
-Kevin M.

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#54
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1/14/07 at 1:05pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

It's staggering how visually and symbolically dense this picture is. I think it's gonna take me at least 3 viewings to grasp it all.

Such an achievement for Del Toro.
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#55
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1/15/07 at 2:51pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

Here's a cool little peek at Del Toro's notebooks.


http://film.guardian.co.uk/flash/pag...949730,00.html
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#56
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1/16/07 at 2:33pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

It's HOPEFULLY going to start playing in my neck of the woods soon! Can't wait to see this one...
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#57
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1/19/07 at 9:28am
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

I sat engrossed throughout. It was better than Chronos and easily as good as The Devils Backbone.


Warning Spoiler! Click to show
I feel it was real. The mandrake effect.

Against Stupidity, The Gods Themselves, Contend In Vain

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#58
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1/21/07 at 5:43pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

Hey admins, any chance that this can become the official discussion thread so we can discuss points outside of spoilers? That would be awesome.

I just saw this today with some friends. I can't tell their reactions. It was neither positive or negative. Maybe thoughtful is a better word. It is definitely the mirror test response for the ending. As I am shaky in my view on life and spirituality meant that I was equally shaky with the ending...which is perfect. A match, if you will.

I disagree that the Captain was evil incarnate, though. Oh, he was evil but he had a lot of back story, most of it unspoken. I want to see it again to catch more of it but I love that they leave much of their pasts hidden but we see bits and pieces of it as the movie continues. How did he and his wife meet? As she said? Was it truly romantic? I doubt it. Was it forced? Possibly. Does the Captain have feelings about war and a soldier's role in it? How does he compare to his war hero father and his wife's war hero (I assume) husband? The watch, the razor, living in the mill's wheel room... the symbolism was thick. He was fascinating to watch, even as he showed how much of a monster he was.

I think the less developed character was Ofelia's mother. She didn't have a lot to do other than be ill as a woman with a troubled pregnancy but I wanted to know a bit more about her and her choices.

This was truly a great, haunting fable for our times. I look forward to reading more about del Toro's take on things. Thanks for the links!

Phil

EDIT: On a side note, this was a Sunday matinee performance that I watched and the medium sized big box theater was packed! Score one for subtitled adult fantasy movies. I half suspect that some there were expecting more of a "horror" movie in the traditional mold but I don't think many left disappointed from the mutterings I heard as people filed out.
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#59
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1/21/07 at 6:17pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

Okay, for spoiler-free reviews, go here, otherwise, buckle up your seat and fire away.

"Jee-sus, it's like Iwo Jima out there" - Roger Sterling on "Mad Men"
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#60
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1/21/07 at 7:54pm
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Re: Del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth

Cool. Ok, here goes.......he was really dead the whole time!

*Oh*.....sorry.
-Kevin M.

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