Is there a ray of hope for WKRP??

#1

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11/30/03 at 9:11am

Jaime_Weinman
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In Randy Salas's excellent article today (thanks to tvshowsondvd.com for the link), there's quite a bit of discussion about "WKRP In Cincinnati" and its status as a resident of Music Clearance Hell. It was mentioned that getting the music clearances would add $10 to the cost of each set, which would hurt sales, which would require an even higher price, and so on.

I suspect that Fox has done its share of market research into this question, so I can't confidently say that a "WKRP" set would sell... but I can confidently say that I would gladly pay more for a "WKRP" complete season set as long as I knew it featured the uncut episodes with the music that has not been heard in syndication for years. Unlike "The Mary Tyler Moore Show," which is always playing somewhere, "WKRP" is hardly playing anywhere (I think TVLand has a chopped-up, musically butchered version), because it's in such bad shape musically that it can't be shown in its original form anywhere. DVD is practically the only hope fans have of seeing the episodes the way they were meant to be seen, and I can't think of a WKRP fan who wouldn't pay extra for the show (say, over and above the cost of a M*A*S*H set) if the set sported a sticker saying "Restored episodes with the original music" or something like that, just to let people know why the extra cost. Extras are not important; what's important is the show itself, and I can't help thinking that there might be a market for a show that is currently practically a "lost" show... though, again, I can't say that for sure.

#2

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11/30/03 at 9:38am

pitchman
Gary
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I'd pony up an extra $10 for the set you are describing.

Gary

#3

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11/30/03 at 9:48am

MatthewA
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Me too!

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#4

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11/30/03 at 9:52am

Glenn Overholt
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Ten bucks? They're worried over $10? There are way too many seris' out now that vary in price more than that.

Gee, I thought it would have been a couple of hundred at least.

Glenn

#5

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11/30/03 at 10:10am

Nick Graham
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I think they should release it on Thanksgiving 2004, and to promote it on that big day, Fox should drop turkeys from helicopters circling over Cincinatti.

Great article, Randy!

#6

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11/30/03 at 10:24am

David Lambert
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I agree that $10 wouldn't be a problem for me.

Edit: I think Fox's concern is not the bigger fans or the folks who understand the DVD market like HTFers, but the mass market out there that might just see "oh, this is so expensive" and pass on it.

DAVE/Memphis, TN

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#7

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11/30/03 at 10:31am

Malcolm R
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Ten bucks? They're worried over $10?

Yeah, I can't believe it's that low either. They way everyone invokes "music rights expenses" all the time, I'd have thought it was at least $50-per-set difference or higher.

But I think the "Roswell" approach is the right idea. Pay for those few songs that actually have some resonance to the story, and replace the rest of the filler with more filler. As noted in the first post, the original soundtrack of WKRP likely hasn't been heard since the original airings. Is anyone going to notice if one song is replaced with another (unless it's plot-related)?

Then the music rights holders can go back to living in their little 19th century hidey-holes, holding tight to their "precious," where no one gives a rat's ass about their song or listens to it anymore.

BTW - Not a fan of WKRP so I wouldn't buy it at any price, but there are probably shows I would buy that are in similar music rights limbo.

Uncle Joe: I'll never marry you, Selma Plout! You may as well take off that wedding dress and put it back in your Hopeless Chest!

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#8

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11/30/03 at 10:40am

David Lambert
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Hey, when a set goes from (as an example) $50 to $60 list price, that's a 120% increase in the SRP. That's GOTTA make a difference to their marketing plan, don't you think?

DAVE/Memphis, TN

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#9

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11/30/03 at 10:45am

george kaplan
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I'd certainly pay the extra bucks to have the uncut episodes. On the other hand I wouldn't pay even 1 cent for butchered ones.

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#10

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11/30/03 at 10:50am

Malcolm R
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Hey, when a set goes from (as an example) $50 to $60 list price, that's a 120% increase in the SRP.

What math is that?

Seems like a 20% increase to me. A 120% increase would be from $50 to $110.

Uncle Joe: I'll never marry you, Selma Plout! You may as well take off that wedding dress and put it back in your Hopeless Chest!

--Petticoat Junction--

#11

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11/30/03 at 10:52am

Joey Gunz
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I'd pay an extra $10 (for uncut episodes). The show only lasted 4 seasons so the cost of collecting it won't be too high. Besides, it's worth it if it means owning the infamous Thanksgiving episode "Turkeys Away". One of the funniest episodes ever on any sitcom.

Les: It's a helicopter, and it's coming this way. It's flying something behind it, I can't quite make it out, it's a large banner and it says, uh - Happy... Thaaaaanksss... giving! ... From... W.... ... K... ... R... ... P!! No parachutes yet. Can't be skydivers... I can't tell just yet what they are, but - Oh my God, Johnny, they're turkeys!! Johnny, can you get this? Oh, they're plunging to the earth right in front of our eyes! One just went through the windshield of a parked car! Oh, the humanity! The turkeys are hitting the ground like sacks of wet cement! Not since the Hindenberg tragedy has there been anything like this!

Johnny: Les? Are you there? Les isn't there. (composing himself) Thanks for that on-the-spot report, Les, and for those of you who just tuned in, the Pinedale Shopping Mall has just been bombed with live turkeys. Film at eleven.

ROFL!!!!

#12

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11/30/03 at 11:12am

Rob P S
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I'd pay the $10 - I'd even sacrifice some of the weaker episodes (which is not very many) to hold down the costs. The first-season clip show, for example, could be left out.

#13

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11/30/03 at 11:18am

Craig S
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As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

Oh yeah, I'd pony up the extra ten spot, no problem.

#14

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11/30/03 at 11:43am

TonyD
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i'd pay $15 easy.
the one ep that the music is important that i remember first is the one were the russian defector falls for Jennifer or was it Bailey. anyway elton john's song tiny dancer was very important in this ep.

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Hey, when a set goes from (as an example) $50 to $60 list price, that's a 120% increase in the SRP.
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What math is that?

Seems like a 20% increase to me. A 120% increase would be from $50 to $110.

btw i'm a Bailey Quarters fan not a Jennifer fan.

#15

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11/30/03 at 11:54am

Shane_Anthony
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Loni Anderson on dvd is priceless!

#16

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11/30/03 at 12:05pm

Drew Mertz
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Depending on the final cost would be the determining factor for me to get the wkrp sets.

In his article it also metioned saturday night live being a real problem with the music issues. It can`t be that big of a problem, didn`t a big box set of just music acts on SNL just get released?

I`d like to see SNL get released without the music acts. Since it was mostly one hit wonders or the over played froced fed radio friedly garbage.

#17

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11/30/03 at 12:27pm

Craig: Mclaren
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At least Fox give the impression they've looked into the WKRP situation. Does anybody really believe Universal have really done their homework with Miami Vice? They probaly saw the 300 plus song list and thought "Nah, what the world really wants and needs is that decade defining show "Sliders". Every man in the world wanted to be Jerry O'Connell...

#18

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11/30/03 at 12:38pm

Paul Drake
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This post is not directed at anyone personally, it's a rhetorical point so please don't take offense:

So are the people who are willing to pay $10 extra for WKRP the same who pointed their fingers at Fox for pricing their MTM set too high resulting in the low sales that have stalled future season sets?

$10 doesn't seem a like a lot to a diehard fan of the show, but to the casual consumer it is. Let's face it, it's the casual consumer that makes or breaks a product. Fox knows that they have guaranteed sales to the group of WKRP fanatics that have written them to release the sets. But the key to the success are the John/Jane Does out there shopping at Walmart, K-Mart, etc. or who perhaps see an ad in "Entertainment Weekly". They see the set and remember that they (or perhaps a family member needing a gift) liked the show. What determines whether or not they buy it: price. The average consumer doesn't buy as many DVDs as the people on this forum do so they prioritize their purchases. Those that are perceived as being too expensive lose out.

Just my 2 cents.

#19

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11/30/03 at 1:00pm

TonyD
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the real question on MTM is why is the price high, compared to sets with similiar features i think it is about 10 bucks too high.

thats why i havent bought it.

#20

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11/30/03 at 1:16pm

Terry H
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Quote:

The average consumer doesn't buy as many DVDs as the people on this forum do so they prioritize their purchases. Those that are perceived as being too expensive lose out.

I have news for you. There is such a glut of television coming to dvd nearly everyone must prioritize their purchases. I buy a lot of dvds but I can no longer buy everything that appeals. Consider that the MSRP of MASH is $40. An extra $10 makes it $50 which happens to be the MSRP of Cheers. So it appears to me that WKRP wouldn't be priced waaaay out there. It's still in the ballpark. I would expect to pay $30 - $35 range the first week of release. I could live with that. However, any more would certainly exceed my pain threshold. As a point of reference consider that I just paid $35 for The West Wing and have pre-ordered the next season of Buffy for the same figure. Both are hour long shows and IMO among the best ever produced. Faced with such competition fresh in peoples minds I'm not sure how WKRPwould fare. I personally think it could succeed with an MSRP of $50. I doubt the market would tolerate more.

#21

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11/30/03 at 1:53pm

Jaime_Weinman
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Quote:

Are the people who are willing to pay $10 extra for WKRP the same who pointed their fingers at Fox for pricing their MTM set too high resulting in the low sales that have stalled future season sets?

Possibly. I'm not one of them, though, because I don't really think that price was the biggest factor in MTM's sales disappointment -- a factor, perhaps, but I think it had as much to do with the fact that MTM's fanbase skews kind of older -- not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's the segment of the audience that may not have DVD players yet. I believe that M*A*S*H would have outsold MTM even if the sets had been priced the same, because M*A*S*H has a larger fan following among people who buy DVDs; same with the expensive Dick Van Dyke show sets (granting that Image probably didn't have Fox-style sales expectations, but "Dick Van Dyke" has a somewhat broader fanbase than MTM).

With WKRP, I think the show could sell better than MTM for various reasons: it has more young fans, the rock music element, the first season has the turkey episode (MTM's first season doesn't have many famous episodes), and radio DJs love it so it would get a lot of plugs on the radio. So even at the MTM-style price, I think WKRP would sell better than that. But I haven't researched this of course.

#22

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11/30/03 at 2:04pm

Paul Drake
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Quote:

I have news for you. There is such a glut of television coming to dvd nearly everyone must prioritize their purchases.

I absolutely agree with you. I love DVD as much as anyone else but I probably buy under 30 per year. Of course a number of those are box sets which causes the pocket book to feel some pain.

I've passed over box sets of shows that I really like (Twilight Zone, All in the Family, I Love Lucy) simply because as a consumer I've got to make a choice. I was going to pass on the Dick Van Dyke sets until Best Buy offered a first week pricing scheme that was too good to pass up.

There is such a glut of product out there that it's becoming a vicious circle. The studios need to realize a reasonable return on their investments to keep the sets coming (translation: good sales). However when literally dozens of choices flood the market, a number of worthy titles are bound to be unsuccessful sales-wise simply because of the competition.

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a factor, perhaps, but I think it had as much to do with the fact that MTM's fanbase skews kind of older -- not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's the segment of the audience that may not have DVD players yet.

I think your first point is quite valid (skews older), but I'm not sure on your second point (segment without DVD players). I have no hard evidence to back this up, but just from personal observation from family and work people of boomer age and older, you'd be suprised at how many of them have at least one player. What does come into play though is that they seem to shop for DVDs at lower price points. I've also heard some "why should I pay for TV DVD when I can watch it for free on TV" type comments.

#23

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11/30/03 at 2:31pm

Glenn Overholt
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I didn't get MTM because I just didn't like it that much. It may have been #1 in the ratings when it was out, but if the other shows that were on at the same time were garbage, then it is easier to be #1.

I see we're all taking $40 - $50 here, but if TNG was $100 a season, how many would go for $110. for each season of WKRP?

Yes, they were half as long, but movies aren't priced by how long they are, but by (partially) the work involved.

Glenn

#24

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11/30/03 at 3:19pm

george kaplan
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Are the people who are willing to pay $10 extra for WKRP the same who pointed their fingers at Fox for pricing their MTM set too high resulting in the low sales that have stalled future season sets?

I can only speak for myself. No. I'm consistent in that it wasn't price at all that kept me from buying season 1 of MTM, it was a cut episode due to unpurchased music rights. I'm in the minority, but price is not what kept me from buying MTM or Wiseguy, it's cut episodes. If they'd ponied up the money for the music rights and charged more for those, they may have sold less. I don't know. But I do know that I would have bought both.

"Movies should be like amusement parks. People should go to them to have fun." - Billy Wilder

"Subtitles good. Hollywood bad." - Tarzan, Sight & Sound 2012 voter.

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#25

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11/30/03 at 4:04pm

Nick Graham
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I'd easily pay $50 per season, and I'm far from a WKRP fanatic. It's just one of the few shows that I really loved growing up, like Simpsons, Night Court, and Married...With Children.

#26

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11/30/03 at 4:07pm

Randy A Salas
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Quote:

It was mentioned that getting the music clearances would add $10 to the cost of each set,

To clarify, the $10 amount was part of a hypothetical example. Fox has not said that clearing the music rights to WKRP would actually cost $10 per set. The $10 figure was derived from the example that clearing the rights could cost "a couple of million dolars"--which divided by a hypothetical press run of 200,000 would equal $10 per set.

Quote:

In his article it also metioned saturday night live being a real problem with the music issues. It can`t be that big of a problem, didn`t a big box set of just music acts on SNL just get released?

That was in the sidebar, which offered Gord Lacey's (TV Shows on DVD) top 5 TV shows being held up by music rights. The big boxed set was a long time in the making because of music-rights issues. Gord's pick was for complete-episode, season sets, which are problematic due to the number of musical acts involved.

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At least Fox give the impression they've looked into the WKRP situation. Does anybody really believe Universal have really done their homework with Miami Vice?

To its credit, Fox was the only major studio I contacted that was willing to discuss this complex issue candidly for publication. Others, including Universal, weren't--not on the record, at least.

Randy A. Salas
DVD Columnist & Feature Writer
Minneapolis Star Tribune daily newspaper

#27

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11/30/03 at 4:11pm

Scott Leopold
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The Russian was nuts over Bailey. That's one of my favorite episodes (the favorite, of course, being the turkey episode), and without the proper music, it's totally ruined. I've seen several other cut episodes that had jokes or comments that seemed completely out of place, and thinking back on it, it was probably due to the music.

Interestingly, there was a bunch of talk about WKRP recently on 700 WLW out of Cincinatti. They were talking about just how popular this show still is in other countries, and several callers brought up the idea of a WKRP museum in downtown Cincy as a tourist attraction. Oddly enough, this isn't the first time I've heard the idea brought up. Most people point to the Cheers/Boston relationship, and state that it's about time Cincy finally try to capitalize on WKRP. Around here, at least, I think uncut season sets would sell well, even if they were a bit more expensive.

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#28

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11/30/03 at 4:51pm

Keith Plucker
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Wouldn't this pose a marketing opportunity for a music CD? Say for instance, with each season on DVD, you would get a Best of Season #_ Music CD with the package. While this would cost more they could certainly justify charging more and both Fox and the music companys involved would profit from it.

Would people pay an extra $20-25 per season if the episodes had all the orginal music intact and the package came with a music CD with full length songs on it? I know I would.

-Keith

#29

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11/30/03 at 4:59pm

David Lambert
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Quote:

What math is that?

Seems like a 20% increase to me. A 120% increase would be from $50 to $110.

Heh...that's not bad math, that's a typo! Must fat-fingered the "2"...sorry about that. :b

Quote:

So are the people who are willing to pay $10 extra for WKRP the same who pointed their fingers at Fox for pricing their MTM set too high resulting in the low sales that have stalled future season sets?

$10 doesn't seem a like a lot to a diehard fan of the show, but to the casual consumer it is.

A great example that illustrates the precise point I was trying to make!

Quote:

To clarify, the $10 amount was part of a hypothetical example. Fox has not said that clearing the music rights to WKRP would actually cost $10 per set. The $10 figure was derived from the example that clearing the rights could cost "a couple of million dolars"--which divided by a hypothetical press run of 200,000 would equal $10 per set.

Randy, I can see where people would get confused a bit, but it should have been clear enough that these weren't hard-and-fast numbers. However, I got the impression that they at least represented the *ballpark*. Didn't they? It's around $10, give or take...not $50, give or take. Right?

DAVE/Memphis, TN

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#30

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11/30/03 at 5:32pm

Randy A Salas
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Quote:

Wouldn't this pose a marketing opportunity for a music CD?

In most cases, it's the music publishers who are holding up the rights to these songs, not the CD companies. (CD companies are usually involved only when an appearance by the artist as well as the rights to a song are involved, such as on Saturday Night Live or a variety show.) These often are people who buy and sell the rights to songs like real estate, as producer Paul Brownstein told me; they just want a return on their investment. I contacted several publishers for the article. None would even get back to me.

To give you an idea of how some of these companies operate, Brownstein told me of a Sonny & Cher Show episode that he couldn't air on TV Land because a music publisher wouldn't grant the rights to one song. Sonny Bono wrote the song, owned half of it and personally OK'd its use on the re-aired show. The music publisher that owned the other half (an interest originally owned by producer Phil Spector, who did not write the song) refused to grant permission. So Sonny Bono couldn't air his own song on his own show because of a music publisher that owned half of it!

Quote:

Randy, I can see where people would get confused a bit, but it should have been clear enough that these weren't hard-and-fast numbers. However, I got the impression that they at least represented the *ballpark*. Didn't they? It's around $10, give or take...not $50, give or take. Right?

Well, maybe. Peter Staddon was more interested in giving an example that produced nice, round numbers for the article more than anything else. The gist I got was that the 200,000 units in expected sales was the most accurate figure. The "couple of million dollars" in music-rights clearances was more conjecture. The actual figure would surely vary by season and depend on the number of songs and the particular rights holders.

I just wanted to make sure everyone knows that the whole thing was an example, not fact.

Randy A. Salas
DVD Columnist & Feature Writer
Minneapolis Star Tribune daily newspaper

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