- Joined: March 2005
- Post Count: 257
I've noticed that SVS recommends a pair of 16-46 subs in larger rooms. While I have no doubts that this would do the job it seems there is a better way. What about a 25-31 and a 16-46. The 25-31 will handle frequencies from 25 to the crossover on the receiver and the 16-46 can handle the frequencies below this by setting a low-pass crossover at 25. I would guess it might be a little tricky to get everything working together but it makes sense to take advantage of the 25-31's ability to produce the frequencies above 25 more efficiently. If running a plus series you could even tune the 16-46 to 12hz. Since the 16-46 is covering only the last octave or so it should be able to really belt it out. Comments?
Jacob
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- Joined: June 1999
- Location: San Jose, Ca.
- Post Count: 11,130
Because you aren't getting the benefit of having two subs playing exactly the same freuqencies giving you the added SPL. By having two subs playing in different ranges, you do not gain headroom for either of them - you are still limited to what their maximum capabilities are.
"The trouble with the world is not that people know too little, but that they know so many things that ain't so." - Mark Twain
HT: Marantz SR-8300, MA500 mono, Audiosource Amp300, 5X GR Research A/V-2s, Adire Audio Tempest sub, Oppo BDP-83, RC2000MkII, Panamax 5100, Panamax Max2 sub, PS3 60G (250G)...
- Joined: March 2005
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But, the 25-31 is much more efficient at reproducing the frequencies above 25hz. I guess a better way to look at it would be thinking of it as a system that plays as loud as a 25-31 but also extends down to 12hz or 16hz. Any speaker is limited to a certain amount of output. If this is split between 2 units with the same drive and same amp it should significantly increase the total output.
Jacob
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- Joined: February 2002
- Post Count: 794
I considered that as well. But many people, including SVS did not reccommend it. Theortically it sounds good, but it would be extreamlly difficult to tune them properly.
So I ended up with 2 16-46CS+s. With my BFD I have flat frequency response from 13hz - 55hz where the crossover starts to take over. I have both in stock 16hz tune.
On another note, in a larger room, if you want the 16-46 you should probably get 2. In my 12' x 13' x 8' room they can achieve Reference levels, but on movies like U-571, they are reaching their max (in my small room!)
The only way to safely double your money is to fold it over once and place it back in your pocket.
http://www.cube17576.com
- Joined: March 2005
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so basically its just tough to implement? I could believe that. Not to mention that you would need some external crossover if you wanted to cross the second sub over at less than 40hz. I wonder how 1 PC+ would do against 2 PCi's.
Jacob
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- Joined: June 1999
- Location: San Jose, Ca.
- Post Count: 11,130
Quote:
| If this is split between 2 units with the same drive and same amp it should significantly increase the total output. |
This still won't give you double the output of two units. What you are effectively doing with two is DOUBLING the output. That is like adding 200% power to one, assuming it could handle it.
Quote:
| I wonder how 1 PC+ would do against 2 PCi's. |
Still not as much output. Go straight for an Ultra if you are looking for that kind of output. Have you ever even heard ONE SVS? If you haven't, you may be surprised at what one can already do. Brian is an annomaly I think, where his room actually HURTS the performance, because I still say 2 16-46PCis should crush you.
"The trouble with the world is not that people know too little, but that they know so many things that ain't so." - Mark Twain
HT: Marantz SR-8300, MA500 mono, Audiosource Amp300, 5X GR Research A/V-2s, Adire Audio Tempest sub, Oppo BDP-83, RC2000MkII, Panamax 5100, Panamax Max2 sub, PS3 60G (250G)...
- Joined: February 2002
- Post Count: 794
Quote:
| Still not as much output. Go straight for an Ultra if you are looking for that kind of output. Have you ever even heard ONE SVS? If you haven't, you may be surprised at what one can already do. Brian is an annomaly I think, where his room actually HURTS the performance, because I still say 2 16-46PCis should crush you. |
No, I just like really loud bass.
I think what hurts me is that I have the CS+, which does not have the subsonic filters that the PC+ has. So my SVSs will tear themselves apart trying to reproduce 5hz, where a PC+ will limit that. For me that is a good thing, knowing that I am getting evey last ounce of depth possible, but I had to go way overboard to get that.
The only way to safely double your money is to fold it over once and place it back in your pocket.
http://www.cube17576.com
- Joined: March 2005
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I disagree, this is why: A 25-31 will play louder than a 16-46. Therefore replacing 1 16-46 with a 25-31 will give you more headroom as long as you set the crossover between the the 2 subs correctly and can achieve a flat response. Removing the higher frequencies from the 16-46 will allow extra headroom in the lower frequencies. I realize this isn't easy or even practical. The crossover may have to be purchased separately if you want to cross them lower than 40. A BFD should be able to eliminate the hump where the two share the same frequencies. I'm not saying we should all do this. In theory, it should work. I'm also building a case as to why I shouldn't try this. My roommate and I are building a system together and since we will be moving at some point we both may end up buying a sub so we don't have to when we move. Good stuff, keep the comments going.
Jacob
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- Joined: February 2002
- Post Count: 794
Here is another thing to look at. a 25-31 will give you more output in the 30hz region, but is that what you are really looking for??? 16hz is a lot harder to reproduce, and you are leaving that to 1 sub to keep up with the output of the 25-31 in the 30 hz region (which is more to begin with). You will never be able to play 16hz as loud as 30hz, unless you cut back the 25-31, because you have the stronger 25-31 plus the output of the 16-46 playing 30hz, vs just the 16-46 playing 16hz, which is harder to reproduce to begin with. It will never keep up. You will end up having to equalize the 25-31 way down to where you will eliminate the effect.
So in essence, all you are doing is giving yourself more output in the 30hz region, and overpowering the 16-25hz region. You might as well get 2 25-31s if you are looking for more power in the 30hz region.
The lower the note, the harder it is to reproduce. So if you want flat response across the band, you need to accommodate the hardest note, which is 16hz, hence to subs that can play 16hz. Everything else is down hill once you take care of the hardest part. The 16-46 can play the upper regions the same as a 25-31, the 25-31 just has a little more headroom in that region.
Don't look at it as the 16-46 plays 30hz quieter. That is incorrect. The 16-46 is flat from 16-whatever and the 25-31 is flat from 25-whatever. The 25-31 just has more headroom (the ability for the loudest undistorted note to be louder).
The only way to safely double your money is to fold it over once and place it back in your pocket.
http://www.cube17576.com
- Joined: June 1999
- Location: San Jose, Ca.
- Post Count: 11,130
Quote:
| I disagree, this is why: A 25-31 will play louder than a 16-46. |
Two subs playing the SAME thing will be louder than two subs playing DIFFERENT things. There is NO WAY a single 25-31 will be louder in it's respective range than TWO 16-46s. Just because you have limited their ranges does not mean each sub will have twice as much output; they will still only be able to play to their maximum output in that range. This is fact, not theory; I don't see why that isn't clear.
"The trouble with the world is not that people know too little, but that they know so many things that ain't so." - Mark Twain
HT: Marantz SR-8300, MA500 mono, Audiosource Amp300, 5X GR Research A/V-2s, Adire Audio Tempest sub, Oppo BDP-83, RC2000MkII, Panamax 5100, Panamax Max2 sub, PS3 60G (250G)...
- Joined: March 2005
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Quote:
| The lower the note, the harder it is to reproduce. So if you want flat response across the band, you need to accommodate the hardest note, which is 16hz, hence to subs that can play 16hz. Everything else is down hill once you take care of the hardest part. |
that is a good point, given the amount of excursion required for a 16hz to be played loudly the driver would quickly reach its max. While the single driver cannot reproduce that single note any louder while it may be able to reproduce other higher notes at the same time. That in order to be flat down to 16hz you need to make the 16 hz darn loud to match the higher notes that are easier to reproduce.
Jacob
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- Joined: December 2000
- Post Count: 1,700
Your logic tho interesting, is flawed.
Facts are facts, the boys are correct and your "in-correct" in your thinking/approach...
I'm not exactally sure that you understand or fully got it from reading your your last post, but hopefully you did.
No disrespect intended..!
No matter the SVS sono selected, ~{2 of the exact same}~ is,
will perform better period, than mixing subs as you were "possibly" thinking.
Your not the first to bring this up and certainly not to be the last...
Regards
Geoff ¥
Smoothe it over a little...
