thinking about installing a swimming pool ... any advice?

hi all -

we're thinking about installing a pool (and landscaping) in our backyard. but, we have no idea what to look for (gunnite vs fiberglass vs whatever), what kinds of things to take into consideration, etc.

the only thing i know is to install the pool first, so that the landscaping doesn't get all tore up.

so, i guess if anyone has any advice, stories (good or bad), etc ... i'd be glad to hear it!

mahalo!

I read that pools are one of the worst upgrades in terms of ROI to make. Only do it if you plan on being in the house long enough to enjoy.

I hate pools right now. My inlaws have one, and it has been a nice shade of GREEN for about a month now. Lots of money in it. But, they are nice when they are ok. They have fiberglass now. They did have something else first, kind of like plaster. That cracked, and then they got the fiberglass because it was "lower" maintaince. Good luck.

After the usual getting three estimates, checking references, etc....go here http://www.cslb.ca.gov/ All pertinent info on their license status is available.

Pool/landscaping contractors seem to have a lot of shady people. If they use sub contractors, make sure you've got certificates of insurance from each sub on the site (workers comp and liability). Get lien releases from each sub as they finish their work.

Good luck and enjoy.

Mort

Check with your home insurance company for how much it's going to cost to insure. Pools are a giant liability.

Get estimates on the additional costs associated with running the thing and opening and closing it. If you consider yourself an environmentalist, try to imagine how much electricity this means. How much Co2 in the air and mountaintop removal coal used, etc, and is it worth it to you.

You will probably need a fence around your property (or back yard at least) in order to meet local ordinances. Keep that expense in mind.

Also, selling the house is going to be much more difficult with a pool someday when you want to sell. Do not operate under the assumption that money you put into it will come back out when you sell. More likely your home value will go backwards. Talk to a Realtor and see if it's a good idea.

I hate pools and would never dream of installing one.... But then again, lots of people might say that about installing a home theater, wet bar, or billiard room in their house, and I have those things, so if you like a pool go for it! !!

Phillip, I don't think I want to KNOW any of thoese kinds of people.

Ha ha ha ha ha.

Don't do it unless you are: rich, stupid, crazy, or all three. If there is any other pool around you can use or any chance of using a blow up portable one do that first. Pools are the biggest PITAs a homeowner can deal with IMHO.

lol, thanks for the advice so far all. good point phillip. that's something i didn't even think of. are all pools supposed to be insured like that? i'll have to look into that. my backyard is completely fenced in, so i'm okay there.

i'm not too worried about resale value although i'm pretty sure my house won't go down just because of a pool. i know you almost never get your money back on this kind of investment.

That will save you a major expense! Check specific local ordinances on height and type of fence for a yard with a pool just to make sure you're ok.

Ted, what part of the country are you in? If you're in a state where you can use the pool most of the year, that's a big plus.

I see some of the people saying no are from areas where pool use would be limited to half the year or less.

The direction of your back yard, amount of shade, etc., are also big factors here. A pool on the south side will be useful more months of the year.

I'd have to agree that the length of time you'll be in the house is really important as far as whether it's worth it.

My wife and I were thinking of getting a in-ground hottub. Would this be just as bad as getting a pool? Should we just get an above-ground hottub? What would the pros/cons be between the two types (above & in-ground)?

- Colton

I wouldn't be concerned about an increase in homeowner insurance increases due to increased liability as that portion of the policy is one of the least expensive portions. (Now certain dogs will get your policy canceled with many companies.)

Certain localities may require a separate fence inside your outer fencing that can be locked to restrict pool access or a lockable cover that supports weight. Sad case in my area recently was a homeowner leaving their front door unlocked, and a kid (who was really too young to be running loose anyway but that's a different issue) walks into the front of the house out the back, and drowns in the pool....while the people were home.

Agree with those that say maintenance is a pain. I maintained one for 10 years at my prior residence but have no desire at all to repeat that at my present house.

Mort

One would likely increase your property taxes and require permits, etc. The second can me moved if you desire or you can trade it for a case of beer when you're tired of it like I did.

Mort

As already mentioned, you may require an additional fence. Height is also an issue.

As for the hot tub, I'd go above ground. you can sell it if you aren't using it, or get rid of it if there are problems. If you really want it at ground level, build a deck around it. Inground makes servicing a pain.

Just don't hope to use your Christmas bonus to pay for it and all you get in the envelope is a membership to the Jelly of the Month club.

A Pool is well worth the investment. Just be sure to get an automated chlorinator and. if you can afford it, an automated PH controller.

If I were doing my pool again I'd also have it wired for a heat pump.

Colton, I spent a lot of time researching various tubs and options. The in-ground tubs tend to be more efficient (less heat loss) and prettier (tile surrounds, custom built to your specs, etc.). Unfortunately they are a pain to service (pump replacement, etc.). I went with an above ground therapeutic spa.

Hot tub: a tub of hot water (no bubbles)
Spa: A tub of hot water with jets
Therapeutic Spa: A tub of hot water with powerful jets

If you think used car shopping is bad then you haven't seen anything yet. Some spa dealers are complete rip-off artists. The cheaper spas tend to have zero insulation (not an issue in Florida but a big problem in cold weather). This means it will cost you a lot of money (3-4x) to run that 'cheaper' spa. Go to Pool and Spa's Message Board for help (you will want to take a lot of things that are said with a grain of salt).

When selecting a tub, you MUST test it! That means bringing a bathing suit and sitting in the running hot tub for 10+ minutes. You will find that some jets hit the wrong areas (or are needle-like and uncomfortable). You may also find that you can't stay in certain seats (float away, etc.). You want to find these things out before your purchase! Plan on adding $1k+ to the price of a tub for electrical work, pad, cover, and startup chemicals.

I'd suggest looking at Marquis and Hot Springs as a starting point. Those tubs are pretty good (you'll have to decide if the dealer is decent).

One other point about pools. They are a lot easier to care for than a Big Lawn and provide a lot more fun and relaxation.

Last year I bought a house with a pool. Even though I have not used the pool as much as I would like, I enjoy having it. As long as you spend a few minutes every other day checking chemicals and maintaining the pool, the cost is all that bad. You will really spend some money if you let things get out of balance too long. My advice, Read as much as you can about understanding how pool chemicals work from an independent source (not your local pool store). This way you know if the pool store if just trying to sell you stuff you do not need. Instead of an automatic chlorinator, I would recommend a chlorine generator. It uses salt to generate the chlorine and then once the chlorine is used, it gets converted back to salt. The feel of the water is simply amazing and it is a lot safer than the lab-created chlorine. (Eyes will not burn, etc.). Look into automatic cleaners (either pressure side or robotic).

Greg -

Thanks for the info. I think we would rather have a in-ground Therapeutic Spa. This would allow us to use it all year around. We just need to find one that is comfortable and sits at least 8 people.

- Colton

This thread completely validates the decision of me and my wife to stay far away from pools when we were house hunting.

Hot tubs and spas are a lot easier than pools to maintain than a large pool IMO. Less water area just equals less to worry about. Wife and I would love to add a spa to our house here in Denver, you leave it hot in the winter and cool in the hot summer, nice year round.

I would second the above ground option as stated above: service is way easier/cheaper, and if you decide we were all fools and hate the thing later it's easy to get rid of it. But darn, are those in ground spas nice when done right!

I have a 15x30 Esther Williams Millenium above ground pool with a big trex deck around it. Cost about $20k when all said and done. I got my moneys worth the first time my three kids went in, seeing how much they enjoyed it. If it was just my wife and I with no kids, no way would I have a pool just for the fact that I do not use it personally that much but the kids are in it all the time....and this is in Vermont where the pool season is two months if we are lucky.

I can't seem to find any companies that do in-ground spa/hottub.

Don't mean to hijack this thread.

- Colton

This is the best advice I can give after caring for my parent's pool for 5+ years. That care consisted of throwing the Polaris robot in the water, flipping a switch and then floating on the "SS Budweiser" for 2 hours. Seriously, an automatic vacuum means your pool care time goes from hours a day to minutes a day. It also does a much better job than manual vacuuming. As a bonus, it will find earrings and other jewelry that fall off in the pool, making a nice side profit for the pool care person.

thx for the tips guys. i am definitely hearing that the salt systems are the way to go as well.

i've got a few pool contractors lined up in the next couple of weeks. we'll see just how far they want me to bend over.

They won't tell you - they'll surprise you! All the way, baby!

- Colton

Hi Ted ... I'm thinking of writing a book "Should I install a pool and what do I need to know before I start"

Problem is, it would be a big book. There are only 2 types of pools I would consider ... in-ground gunite (concrete) and in-ground fiberglass shell. Forget vinyl liners and forget above-ground if you want a real pool of value.

In-ground fiberglass shell - I would look at Viking Pools 1st, maybe San Juan pools 2nd.
ADVANTAGES: cheaper (~25%), construction/install is quick. looks like concrete/plaster, you can customize the coping, decking, just about everythign these days. virtually have a lifetime warantee on the shell.
DISADVANTAGES: Fewer contractors for this. Size & shape limitations ... few are larger than 30' and 6' deep. You can't realy have a deep-end/diving board. You will pay to truck the shell to your home and rent a crane. If water level drops, they can "float" (i.e. pop out of the ground) ... this can be a nightmare.

Concrete (i.e. gunite or shotcrete with plaster surface)
ADVANTAGES: No design limits, lasts a lifetime,
DISADVANTAGES: COST!!!, plaster will probably need resurfacing in 8-10 years (expoect ~$6000), takes months to complete. Trucks will destroy your yard/driveway.

About 6 weeks ago, we opened our brand new 40' in-ground concrete pool (Anthony & Sylvan Pools, the largest in the USA at over 6000 digs/year). The contract was signed 23-Aug-2004 and it took 9 months to complete. The process was torture and I would probably NOT use A&S a 2nd time. Regardless, I don't think we could be any happier with the result. We use it every day and I would do it again (this time knowing all the pitfalls). A few learnings from my experience ....

MYTH: A pool decreases property value and makes a house hard to sell.
MY LEARNING: An modern, in-ground concrete pool that is well landscaped and maintained will return about 80% of the cost when you sell the house. There are buyers that DO NOT want a pool, buy they won't be looking at your house, will they? Note that a good pool contract includes a transferrable lifetime warantee on the pool.

MYTH: Pools are a PIA to maintain:
MY EXPERINECE: Maintaining chemistry is a non-issue. I check the water and add chemicals weekly. It takes about 15 min. Chemical cost is not a big deal. I let the auto vacuum run about 3x/week; I do a manual vacuum occasionally. Next season, I might consider blowing $1000 on an Aquabot robotic vacuum, which are better and quicker than my Ray-Vac.

MYTH: Pools cost a fortune to operate.
MY EXPERIENCE: I figure about $40./month for electricity to run the pump 10 hrs/day. Chlorine, shock and filter media (DE) are running about $75/season. We have a Nature2 system that allows you to maintain chlorine at approx. 0.5 ppm (very low) The Nature2 cartridge is replaced annually and runs $100/season. Dont mess with the salt-conversion chlorinators which are better suited for large, public pools. The big cost is natural gas for heating (optional). We run it minimally, but it could easily cost hundreds per month. We'll see what happens in September. If you use a service company for spring start / fall close, figure $500/year (could be less).

MYTH: Liability insurance for a backyard pool is a killer.
MY EXPERIENCE: No changes to my homeowners ins. cost as long as all state pools codes are met and it passes inspection; (fencing was costly).

MYTH: In-ground concrete Pools cost a small fortune to build and there are many hidden construction costs.
MY EXPERIENCE: NOT a myth ... this is accurate. Landscaping is the hardest part to budget and can equal the cost of the pool (or more).

Bottom Line ... EVERY SINGLE concrete pool owner I spoke with LOVES their pool. Non-pool owners can be critical. It's a personal decision and depends on your lifestyle and budget. Dont skimp and dont take shortcuts. Work hard on the contract BEFORE you sign and choose your contractor with GREAT care. You will likely be paying out $$$ BEFORE work is done and dealing with troublesome sub-contractors, who have little motivation to treat you right or complete on schedule. Realize on day 1 that YOU are the project manager, regardless of what the builder tells you. Resolve problems during construction ... not after, but realize that contractors can and will stop work if you piss them off TOO much; it's a delicate and challenging management project ... but very rewarding.

Scott

great info scott ... thank you for your personal insights. i'll certainly be keeping those in mind during my shopping.