Battlestar Galactica: Season 2 - SciFi US broadcast thread

The real reason he did that, according to Moore, is that the actor needed to be off the show for a while to do a pilot for a WB comedy.

Man, oh man...who doesn't?

Actually, I find that completely plausible. From a political perspective, I understand the Prez/Lee's complaints, but that doesn't mean you rebel, given the circumstances of the fleet, etc. It WILL fracture the fleet, making them easier to pick off.

I've read that they didn't have the actor for the first ten episodes and when his pilot failed they reshot some scenes with him and inserted them into the already finished episodes.

That's why he wasn't in the cell with the president, that's why the soldier guarding her got her her medicine instead of him and why he stays on Galactica.

They could always shoot some Galactica scenes with him, but the sets that the president will be in for the next few episodes were probably already gone.

So, the "why arnt you locked up" is practically an in-joke?

I'd imagine that wasnt in the script, since he was kinda "worked in" later on.

Funny.... and I like his character also. Especially later on when he has 2nd thoughts.

Nick

Haven't seen any of this yet cuz I live in Germany, but this show has certainly peeked my interest. One short question: I'm assuming I will love this series because I am a great fan of Trek's darkest time - i.e. the late DS9-seasons. The mood in BSG seems to be similarly sinister, maybe even moreso. Is that correct?

Anyway, I have already placed a preorder.

Geez, with all the in-fighting going on...The cylons shouldn't even bother anymore.


On a side note. I hope we see Starbucks new allies on Caprica all get saved. I mean every week we are loosing arms and trained people. 50+ people would help, some of which are trained. I heard a rumor that
Warning Spoiler! Click to show I hope its true they need more
Warning Spoiler! Click to show

Well, can't they just tighten the arms? I tend to lose my loose arms.

Sorry, pet peeve. (Now off to watch the show "Loost") :b

#2x05 - The Farm (Aug. 12)

I knew Caprica Boomer would be back to save the day!

Either the writers enjoy writing Adama or EJO really breathes life into the character -- or both.

I'm not clear as to how the first human-looking Cylons came about and if the farming process is a continuation of that process or something new. Seems to me the machine-type Cylons made the human-looking Cylons, which they should be able to continue to do without farming. I could be missing something, though.

I'm sure we could all see from a mile away that more than 3-4 ships would follow Madame President.

I could see drama involving a possible Starbuck pregnancy. After all, she did have sex with the other guy right before going into the hospital.

More Boomer next week, and the stakes are raised.

They could have caught some humans and used them for the initial copies. Seems that the "farms" are essentially cloning factories.

Caprica Boomer returning to the fleet should be interesting. I like how matter of fact she spoke to Helo and Starbuck about how the Cylons were using humans. Adama crying over Sharon's body took me by surprise. Never noticed any close attachment between them.

I don't look forward to the break in the season. This is just too good.

Tonight was in many ways a turning point for the series. I'm finally beginning to get an idea of the overarching direction of both the Cylons and the various human factions. I'm also starting to get concerned about plot points, both interpersonal and conceptual. A Starbuck/Apollo/Pyramid player triangle reeks of the Smallville-esque interminable romantic circling, for instance. Cylons not being able to reproduce because they don't "love" lacks credibility to me from a sheer logical standpoint. Human beings certainly don't need to love to reproduce, and there is little evidence that the human Cylons are very biologically different than humans. I'm really digging the military/secular vs. civilian/religious conflict, but if they push it too far it could stumble into ridiculousness. I also am finding it harder and harder to buy into Apollo sticking by the president so resolutely, as the division it's causing becomes more and more apparent. Except for the revelation about the farm, though, nothing really bothered me about this episode in and of itself.
And there was a lot to love. The way Adama's return was handled, with the awkwardness that that implies. The way the president's rosy insurrection resulting in her freezing her buns off in a space-bound meat locker was a nice little bite of reality seeping in. The scene between Adama and the chief was a wonderful little surprise. We've been led to believe that the fleet view the Cylons as toasters and Adama once again exceeds exceptations and fundamentally gets it. It's a nice moment that reveals both the depth he cares for his crewmembers and the continuing depth that the chief felt for Boomer mk1 as a person. Having lost his son, moments like this and his first return to the command center really capture the internal meditations Adama must be having about love after such a betrayal by his son. I also liked the reluctance President Roslin felt when faced with the prostrated masses. She has taken the mantle of a prophet, and I don't think she truly understands the fundementalism of what she has tapped. The revelation that Starbuck was abused as a child was a real shocker, and it's something that strikes close to home to me personally. It adds a whole new dimension to her meloncholy at returning to her old home. Likewise, the disagreement between the black doctor cylon and Six was another dose of humanity to a fundementally inhuman enemy. The chemistry between Helo and Boomer mk2 likewise is surprisingly strong; when he's having casual conversations with her so soon after her leaving them stranded seems perfectly natural because we've watched the two of them evolve to this point. Unlike the chief/Boomer mk1 relationship, this one is honest and in the open. Boomer mk2 could still be planning for an ultimate betrayal I suppose, but I don't feel it. Since the show's premiere, Boomer mk1 had always been a ticking time bomb. Which leads us to my favorite moment of the episode: Adama visiting Boomer mk1's corse. With the flashbacks to her shooting him, I thought for sure they were going for him melodramatically slapping the corpse like so many lesser shows would have done. Instead his response nearly tore me in two, so decent and idealistic it was. Here is a man so fundementally decent that he can't begin to understand what motivates such evil. She was never a toaster for him, so he reflects her betrayal back upon himself as his failing. It strikes the same chords that have always made the story of Jesus so powerful to me personally. That's drama at it's best.

Also, two things I just noticed after the fact:
1) the episode teaser drum roll is back
2) the newer, competent Baltar didn't have any Six hallucinations this episode

Great episode with a wonderful opportunity for Katie Sackoff to display a lot of range. Also agree on how great all of the Adama scenes were- the writers continue to take him down the non-obvious path. I also think that despite his protests on how stupid the religion angle was, Adama, unlike Tigh, knew that they would lose a whole lot more than two or three ships.



I don't think it's supposed to be credible at all. Its certainly no more credible than a bunch of machines not only deciding to believe in god but to also choose a different theology than the humans who created them.



I think it's separate from the cloning. Cloning is very limiting to the them since they supposedly can only create 12 variations. Natural birth, on the other hand, will produce an infinite number of variations. Even with a limited population every conception will be a unique person/cylon. I'm sure this separation between birth and cloning ties into the fabric of their religion.

Yes, Adam, the short moment that Baltar was on screen he seemed to make a decision for himself, didn't he? He didn't want to clap for Adama, since he is a cold thinking scientist and not part of the military machine, (or something, I know that is half formed) but he did, and from the 4th wall we never saw 6 manipulating him to do it.

Many powerful moments in this episode.

So the question is, did the Cylons take Starbuck's ovary or implant a child? I think it's a tossup.

My wife and I also had a conversation about Starbucks sudden love affair and the depth of her feelings. I think it was just the influence of war, and the barriers that never even get raised when you know you are 2 of about 40,000 humans left in the known universe.

By the by, where did Unger get the arrow? I was a little confoosed on that point.

I wonder if they had her ovary if they couldn't successfully clone her. A Starbuck Cylon suddenly showing up would certainly make things interesting.

EDIT- I doubt they would impregnate her. If the current rate of time passing holds it would probably take several seasons for her to carry a child to term (assuming that normal human birth cycle stays true, which seems to be the case for Boomer so far).

Ron Moore anwsers this in tonight's Podcast:
Warning Spoiler! Click to show On the topic of the podcasts, I really love them. They were a cool novelty back in Season One before they utilized them inside the podcast framework, but now that Scifi provides them in a feed, they've become as big a part of my friday nights as the episode itself. Moore is far more informative than many DVD commentaries, and far more candid as to what does and doesn't work in an episode. They're also far less polished than a DVD audio commentary; one episode he had to pause because I plane was going by overhead. Tonight he battled trying to turn off the ringer on his phone to somewhat mixed results when it started ringing mid-sentence (and wouldn't stop). Then at the end you hear his daughter playing in the background. It really gives them some additional personality and makes the affair more intimate than a DVD audio commentary (though if they included them on the Season Two DVD I wouldn't be surprised) Subscribing in iTunes has made it a cinch, too; once the new entry pops up, I click update, then go do other things and it's waiting for me when I get back. Sometimes technology isn't the enemy after all.

Yeah. Cylons LOVE podcasts!

Or it could be the fact that (for a brief time) he was part of the civilian government, the Vice President, and Adama & Tigh have put him out of a job.

I've never had a problem with that.
Since the very beginning, Apollo has been unhappy with his position, and seems to have MANY chips on his sholdier.

I don't think he really believes in the president, but is venting all his bottled up anger over his father.

Nick

Could Baltar's reaction also have to do with the dream he had earlier in the season where Adama drowned his child?


I just wonder if he's going to realize he made a mistake as Rosilyn continues to play the religious card.

Great episode.

Two resolutions of questions that had the critics complaining since season one: 1. Why are we spending so much time on the Caprica plotline and 2. Why are the Cylons trying to make Helo fall in love with Boomer. I like the answers/payoff. I don't know that it needed to be set up for as long as it was, but I am ok with it. And a new question opens up with Starbuck's second surgery.

Another cylon model has been identified. Glad they are covering all the racial types.

The heavy raider was very cool looking. Interesting how Boomer could kill the brain and then pilot it.

As for Cylons needing love to interbreed with humans, I agree that it isn't supposed to be credible. The cylons were having problems creating children with humans and they knew love was one thing missing, so they are experimenting. Doesn't have to be right.

I too was suprised by Adama crying over Boomer. Didn't see that coming but it will make things more interesting when Mk2 gets back to the Galactica.

I think Anders must have gotten the arrow of Apollo from starbuck's hummer when they attacked them and chased her and helo into the woods, but for whatever reason never told her he had it. Not a big leap or plot hole there.

The story arc with Apollo is going to take a long way before he gets back in the good graces. He is way beyond one bad decision at this point. The fleet splitting also has lots of posssibilities.

The only thing this show really needs is an HD simulcast. It doesn't look bad blown up to fit the widescreen, but the HD broadcasts on UHD were great. I just didn't watch them all as I'd already seen them. I'd love to see them the first time through in HD.

That's OK. You're not supposed to believe what they do, you're just supposed to know that's what they believe. I agree a more plausible explanation would be they're missing something biologically that humans carry.



I'm glad Adama is able to see the reality of the Boomer situation, but I'm not sure the feelings about the rest of the Cylons are much off base. If I step back and look at the overall arc, Cylons and humans did have an uprising, but there was a peace reached, and they were supposed to retain diplomatic relations. The Cylons did not respect that, finally culimating in a war and attempted genocide. Boomer model or no, I'm not quite ready to let them babysit the kids.



I'm not sure if you really mean "clone," but based on what we know about clones today, a clone doesn't come out an adult version of the original complete with memories. An unmodified cloned human would be human, and I'm not sure why that human would have any allegiance to Cylons. I think the Cylons create a genetic hybrid. In general, we'll one day need to find out why human/Cylong offspring are loyal to Cylons. Nature vs. Nurture? The Cylons 'raise' them? Or is something normally done to them? Will Caprica Boomer's child turn out to be more human if not captured by the Cylons?

One problem I have with this show, (and I tend to just ignore it for the enjoyment of entertainment value), is how the frak do they make a machine that is so human-like that all your normal medical tests cannot tell that it is a machine and not human. The only way is some specially-developed, after much pain-staking work, special test. This just does not seem plausible to me. I cannot conceive synthetic, machine-made material that would so closely mimick blood, internal organs, skin, etc.

Yes, I can buy they would not be detecable by looking at them, even cut them and they bleed. But when a doctor puts that "fake blood" under a microscope, it should be easy to tell it's not truly human blood.

Yeah, I'm not talking about human cloning. I'm talking about creating a new human-looking cylon model (ie a 13th model).

I think that was explained with the last episode.

Clearly, human cylons are not "made" but born. They are probobly the result of metal cylons doing experiments with human DNA, cloning, and memory modifications.

It seems completely plausible that they would be hard to detect, since they really are human... sorta. The cylons have control at the DNA level, allowing for human cylons to be stronger, etc.

Well, the "glowing spine" thing is a problem, but I'm just ignoring that! Also the "memory jumping", but that could be explained simply as its an ability that all humans possess, but its simply not used, or we can not control it.

Nick

Hmm, are you sure that is the case? I didn't get that from the episode. I got that the 12 models were made and that the cylons are now trying to reproduce with humans -- both male cylon with female human and female cylon with male human, but that they were having problems getting it to work, hence "the farm." As for the 12, they are imperfect, but they do have the glowing spine and the super strength, suggesting they weren't born or cloned. And Baltar's test does work, even if other more ordinary tests don't show it.

I think of the Human Cylons as Replicants from Blade Runner. They are faster and stronger than us, but they are almost as easy to kill as we are too.

Good episode. The only thing I can add to the conversation is to note that, once again, we have a disturbing occurrence of euthenasia. Starbuck killed several women when she destroyed the farm equipment (though how she knew cutting power would result in their deaths is something of a mystery to me), even though she had consent from just one woman. To be sure, being turned into a baby factory in a medical experiment is not a good thing. But Starbuck took it upon herself to decide for others that it is a fate worse than death.

Is this something that the writers agree with and don't think twice about portrayng? Is this just the way it is in the BG Universe? Or is it just a way to artificially enhance drama by making the characters appear to be forced to make high-stakes, emotionally tough decisions?

Well, I meant that they arnt really machines, but living organisms that are created via there DNA sequence, adapted from humans. So, not really human, since differences exist, though I suppose if they are able to reproduce, it would imply they are the same species?

"Born" was the wrong word. I put it into quotes to simply imply that the human cylons are created naturally.

Nick

So....the revelations of "The Farm" lead me back to some of the fundamental questions of the story.

What is the Cylon's purpose in trying to re-create humans as closely as possible? They have the 12 "clones" and there are many copies of them. But now we find out they are actively trying to make new baby Cylon/humans.

Why? There is no significant human population left to infiltrate and defeat. And if there is, the machine Cylons can readily destroy them. Unless...the Cylons have exhausted the resources of the 12 worlds and cannot make any more machine Cylons? (I am admittedly in blatant speculation mode here.)

I understand that their religion tells them to destroy the humans, but at the same time tells them that the events of the story are all part of a great cycle that has happened before and will happen again. It's chicken-and-egg, isn't it? They are just fulfilling their destiny?

Doesn't that make them direct idealogical descendents of HAL 9000?!?! He did evil, but he was not evil. It was us that was evil and programmed him as such by our nature.

So I go back to the idea that was floated here in the last few days, they are trying to reproduce because they have a societal survival instinct? And they wear out, just like any other machine? That's not hard to swallow. But do they need to hunt the surviving fleet to do it?

There have been so many good stories about robots outwitting humans and outlasting them in popular film the last 35 years, (going back to 2001:ASE) I think Ron Moore is using that against us as we try to figure out where he is going with this!

Of course, this could just be one big religious allegory that ends with no answers as to the definite motivation of the Cyclons.