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HTF REVIEW: Heat - Two Disc Special Edition

#61
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thiss was jjust poor judgement and i dont understand the reasoning behund it.

They don't live in the same "dimension/universe": one is a cop, the other a criminal...
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#62
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Sometime next week when this thread finishes loading its over 7MB of images, I'll see if I have some feedback. In the meantime, may I introduce you to the concept of jpg. You can use low compression (say about a 10, if you have Photoshop) jpg images with no discernible loss of image quality but with about 1/6 the file size.

"That's the disease you have to fight in any creative field.  Ease of use"
--Jack White--

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#63
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Hey John, you're welcome...

Re: Photoshop, I don't. But if you're offering, I'll gladly send you the files to reduce them and host them...?
My Top 25 Noirs:

25. 711 Ocean Drive (1950), 24. Odds Against Tomorrow (1959), 23. Desperate (1947), 22. Pushover (1954), 21. The Blue Dahlia (1946), 20. The File on Thelma Jordon (1949), 19. He Ran All the Way (1951), 18. The Asphalt Jungle (1950), 17. The Killing (1956), 16. I Walk Alone (1948),...
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#64
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vincent, is that your theory?

if you think thats what mann was going for, it doesnt work for me.

plus it's unnecessary, why bother with that?
just put them in the scene together.
sometimes being artistic just isnt good for the overall "picture".
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#65
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Am I the only one confused by the dissapointment that everyone seems to be expressing?

To my eyes, the new transfer certainly looks like it has the better resolution... just look at the guy standing behind Pacino in the second to last caption. It's not the most significant pq upgrade, but it is a plus. And all we have to go by are 4 screen grabs on the internet...

Regardless of the transfer however, we are getting a brand new commentary track, an extra disc's worth of supplemental bonus features and brand new and much improved packaging over the cheap flimsy snapper disc released 3 or 4 years ago...

What's the problem here?

Imo, the original transfer looked pretty darn good to begin with and wasn't really in need of that much improvement. It's been awhile since I sold the original release, but it definitely wasn't given shoddy treatment.

I don't understand why you guys see reason to complain, it seems like that's what we're best at here and with all the phenomenal effort that Warner Bros. has been putting into their DVD's recently, I'm shocked that somebody even saw fit to question whether the studio might be slipping to the ranks of Columbia or something along those lines...

We hated the snapper cases, we made a fuss.

Phased out.

We wanted a commentary track.

Roger.

We get all excited about the addition of bonus features.

Roger that too.


So why would anyone not upgrade to this Special Edition?

It might not be DVD of the year, but it's certainly an improvement over the initial release and lightyears from a substandard production...

Just think of all the exceptional product we've gotten from Warner Bros. in the past few months, not every release can get the full-blown Casablanca treatment... and than when studios work hard to remaster films and produce extra features, etc. we complain that our favorite movies are taking too long to come to DVD and fuss about the many obscure titles that have yet to come out.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Personally, I can't wait to pick this Special Edition up, especially since I sold my older copy years ago and haven't watched the movie since. I'm looking forward to adding this to my collection!
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#66
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No problem Herb

There are a few solutions. You don't have to send them to me, I will just download them and do some decent JPGs. Then, I can send them back to you, host them permanently or host them temporarily for you to grab them, move them to your server and change the links. I'll let you decide. I'll be back in a few with optimized images.

"That's the disease you have to fight in any creative field.  Ease of use"
--Jack White--

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#67
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OK Herb, here you go. You can download these and load them up to your server and update the img links to jpg instead of bmp, or you can just link to them on my server. Just let me know so I know whether to remove them.

I used a very low compression level (90% Quality) but thanks to the letterbox, they average 90% smaller files.


















The names of the images are the same, just with a jpg suffix instead of bmp. Should be easy enough to update.

"That's the disease you have to fight in any creative field.  Ease of use"
--Jack White--

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#68
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BTW, the reason I suggest changing them is, if someone is on dial-up, it will take roughly an hour to open the first page.

"That's the disease you have to fight in any creative field.  Ease of use"
--Jack White--

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#69
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going by the last set of imgs.
the bottom picture looks much clearer.
there is on grey hair on deniro's temple that is going in a different direction then the rest.
it is not so easy to see on the top image.
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#70
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^ The pq and contrast has definitely been improved, just look at the texture and hue of the metal bar railing in the last pic. You can see all the fine detail and the rise in contrast is obvious. The picture above looks glossed over in comparison. There's also more dteail and contrast in the shadows.
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#71
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then again, i forgot these are not exactly the same frame.
notice last pic, ear in one no ear in other.
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#72
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anyone want me to do the same with the japanese DTS disc?
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#73
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Looks better to me, slightly more detail.
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#74
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Am I the only one confused by the dissapointment that everyone seems to be expressing?


Hear hear! What Marco said!!!!!

"Heat" isn't an old transfer. I was surprised myself when they announced a 2-disc SE.

Exactly like "My Fair Lady", same telecine, new DVD master, recompressed and re-authored. Folks: this is as good as we can probably get on DVD. Doubtless the same master will be used for the HD-DVD version.

PeterTHX

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#75
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So, if Warners does occassionally issue less-than-stellar DVDs we shouldn't complain (haven't watched Heat yet, so don't know about that one), but it's perfectly fine to endlessly lambast Columbia and Universal, despite the many fine DVDs they've issued. Have I got that right?

I do find it amusing that people do tend to forgive Warners their occasional sin but not others. Just look at The Broadway Melody or Little Caeser - both of which have transfers that are no better than the Universal early Marx Bros. transfers. Guess which studio gets lambasted and guess which studio gets "they did the best they could - bravo Warners".

So, it's funny that when there's a thread where someone actually says something negative or is nitpicky about a Warners transfer, someone shows up and says we shouldn't criticize.
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#76
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but it's perfectly fine to endlessly lambast Columbia and Universal, despite the many fine DVDs they've issued.


Except that for Columbia and Universal (ESPECAILLY Universal lately) the fine DVDs are exceptions to the rule. With a weak Warner transfer (and Heat is NOT among those) THAT is the exception. Why does it take a Superbit to be special, Columbia? Why do you cram so many extras on one disc (instead of two) at the expense of the feature's bitrate Universal? Why are kids titles almost always Foolscreen (when kids are the LAST ones to complain about the black bars)? The list goes on.

If Warner farks up something I'll criticize it. "Heat SE" does not merit that.

PeterTHX

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#77
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The transfer looks no different and I'm not an "extras guy". I'll skip it and buy something more worthwhile.

\"If you’re lucky, people like something you do early and something you do just before you drop dead. That’s as many pats on the back as you should expect.\" - Warren Zevon 1993, R.I.P.

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#78
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The original Heat DVD looks pretty good for the most part. But, there are some scenes where the quality drops dramatically. For instance, at about the 1 hour mark, when Pacino goes back to the Policeman's dinner party to pick up his wife. Horrible. Is this fixed? There are a few scenes like this.
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#79
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So, if Warners does occassionally issue less-than-stellar DVDs we shouldn't complain (haven't watched Heat yet, so don't know about that one), but it's perfectly fine to endlessly lambast Columbia and Universal, despite the many fine DVDs they've issued. Have I got that right?

I do find it amusing that people do tend to forgive Warners their occasional sin but not others. Just look at The Broadway Melody or Little Caeser - both of which have transfers that are no better than the Universal early Marx Bros. transfers. Guess which studio gets lambasted and guess which studio gets "they did the best they could - bravo Warners".

So, it's funny that when there's a thread where someone actually says something negative or is nitpicky about a Warners transfer, someone shows up and says we shouldn't criticize.



Arthur, that's a silly comparison...

Little Caeser is a 75 year old film, who knows what shape the original negs were in and the transfer is far from terrible. In fact, I think it looks pretty damn good compared to just about every other print I've ever come accross in the past 22 years I've been around. It also features a well informed commentary track by film historian Richard Jewell, a featurette documentary on the film, a classic Spencer Tracy short, a rare early Warner Bros. Bosko cartoon which hadn't seen prior release and a 1930 newsreel to top it off. It was also packaged with 5 other great films, all of which recieved beautiful pristine remastered transfers and at an incredible bargain price to top it off. The Marx Bros. Collection from Universal was poorly managed. Little effort went into the set at all. The transfers were simply ported over from an earlier release and the only extras offered were of little interest... some 20 minutes of interviews from The Today Show from the 60's. These were some of the greatest comedies of all-time. That shows little thought. I wouldn't go so far as to say that The Marx Bros. Silver Screen Collection is an out and out bad set. But you cannot compare any one disc from that collection to Little Caesar or any of the recent Warner classic releases. I don't see how anyone can justifiably mention Warner Bros. (or any studio for that matter) in the same sentence as Columbia. They are consistently the worst studio around. What little they find viable for release gets horrible treatment, many films STILL being issued in incorrect aspect ratios and they just make it obvious that they have no understanding or appreciation for the films that they are putting. Heat is far from a substandard release. In fact, I find it hyppocritical of anyone who'd think otherwise. The film received a terrific transfer the first time around and we asked for the Special Edition treatment. Well, we got it. Commentary tracks, featurettes, interviews, an entire discs worth of extras along with brand new packaging to replace the old cheap snapper case which we all professed so much disdain towards and the pq was upped slightly to boot. What more can you ask for? You might not be into extra features or commentaries and that's fine... but than that doesn't reflect on the quality of the new set, that's your own personal gripe. Just because you might not justify an upgrade for what's being offered here does not make the DVD any less of a great production. I'm sure there are many people that would have picked it up it had just been reissued a la Universal, FOX or New Line with a slight price reduction and/or new packaging (sans-snapper). We have a full-blown 2-disc Special Edition here. Nobodies forgiving Warner Bros. for anything... I don't see what we'd have to forgive them for? Delivering us the DVD that we've been asking for years now? I'll be the first to criticize any company when a substandard product is released. I just don't see hwo this qualifies, and I find it even more amusing that the only reason we're bickering here is because of the screen captions above. If the old release were in shittier condition, we'd all be sitting here praising Warner Bros. for a terrific transfer. The captions posted look excellent and despite what conclusions you've happened upon without even viewing the new set, to my eyes there is an obvious enhancement in resolution and detail. This can be seen plain as day if you look at the railing bar in the last shot. If you don't think that's significant, perhaps it's due to the fact that it is shown in a tiny frame on a messageboard. That's not how most of us watch our movies. I imagine it would look way more significant on a largte projection screen and if you are simply viewing your discs on an old 4x3 television screen that it shouldn't impact you either way. It's ridiculous how we're sitting here scrutinizing these screen grabs as if it will determine whether or not Warner have in fact delivered us a quality DVD. How's about looking at those above captions and showing me where YOU find fault in them instead? I think you'd be hard pressed to come with any reasonable distinction. The fact of the matter is, that we all love to complain and will go out of our way to look for reasons to do so. This is why we're considered messageboard nerds and the like and not taken seriously when issues like this arise. Any customer who walks into a video retailer and comes upon the current DVD of Heat and this new Special Edition and weighs them in considering the price, etc. will think this is a great deal! Here we are, condeming one of the most efficient studios around right now who is doing absolutely everything in their power to cater to us... the buying public who appreciate and understand films... and all because the transfer looks great but a little to similair to the similarly great previous transfer. Excuse me if I think that sounds ridiculous.
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#80
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"The fact of the matter is, that we all love to complain and will go out of our way to look for reasons to do so. This is why we're considered messageboard nerds and the like and not taken seriously when issues like this arise."

If a more true statement has ever been made, I've never seen it
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#81
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I´m definitely no expert, but I can´t see any difference between the PQ of the old and new edition.
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#82
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anyone want me to do the same with the japanese DTS disc?


Hey CraigL I would like to see it. I'm thinking of buying the R2 Jap disk since this one doesn't look to be much of an improvement over the previous. Is the R2 transfer better than the R1? Thanks
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#83
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then again, i forgot these are not exactly the same frame.


No offense to Herb -- he did a GREAT review. But, when do a true valid comparison of shots, you must use the exact same frame.
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#84
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Marco - the Marx Brothers transfers were hardly "ported" over from anything. They are all better than their Image counterparts, especially Duck Soup.

I went out of my way to say I hadn't seen the Heat DVD - I have now. It's a fine transfer, but I don't have the original DVD to compare it to. The bigger question for me is, what's the big deal about the movie. I didn't really care for it when it came out and seeing it again did nothing to change my opinion of it. It's a two hour movie that runs three hours. I watched the extras which I felt were the usual Warners boring talking heads and clips affair.
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#85
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What's the big deal about the movie?

Well...

Pacino and De Niro together for the first time in a film, headlining an excellent cast.
Mann's gifted eye for filming Los Angeles at night, and Dante Spinotti's fine cinematography.
A crime thriller that contrasts relationships on both sides of the law with thoughtful, considered dialog.
A filmmaker who is willing to tell his story patiently, allowing the film time to develop its characters.
The single best choreographed and edited robbery / gun battle committed to film.
Excellent sound design throughout the film, in particular during the opening heist sequence, and later following the bank robbery.

- Walter.

Fidelity to the source should always be the goal for Blu-ray releases.

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#86
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Dave… Agreed. So much so in fact, I have deleted the last set of caps from the review.

John… I have uploaded your new pics into the review.


There’s really not much more I can say with regards to this new Special Edition. Even after I posted the review, I went back checking various scenes and still, I see virtually no difference whatsoever. And that’s projected on a 96” screen (Sharp XV-Z9000u DLP on a Stewart Firehawk). Unfortunately, reviewers are rarely (if ever) privy to what was used as source elements or info relating to the transfer etc. All I can do is reiterate that the artifacting/noise that is (abundantly) present on the original version can be observed at the identical locations on the Special Edition… While upgrading for improved A/V seems (at least to me) pointless, whether or not you’ll want to upgrade for the special features is a personal decision.
My Top 25 Noirs:

25. 711 Ocean Drive (1950), 24. Odds Against Tomorrow (1959), 23. Desperate (1947), 22. Pushover (1954), 21. The Blue Dahlia (1946), 20. The File on Thelma Jordon (1949), 19. He Ran All the Way (1951), 18. The Asphalt Jungle (1950), 17. The Killing (1956), 16. I Walk Alone (1948),...
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#87
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Hey CraigL I would like to see it. I'm thinking of buying the R2 Jap disk since this one doesn't look to be much of an improvement over the previous. Is the R2 transfer better than the R1? Thanks


I can do some screenshots to match the ones already put up on the thread if you like.
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#88
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Nice review Herb, a very well made if a tad overrated and overlong thriller, if Kurt Russell and Kevin Costner were the two main stars no one would be going gaga over it today.


Of course, great actors make good movies even better. Heck, they make crappy movies good. But I would have to disagree with you here. Even if Russell and Costner were cast instead of DeNiro and Pacino this still would have been the best epic crime drama ever made. And I am not saying that Russell and Costner are bad actors either, quite the contrary, I like Kurt Russell a lot.

Anyway this is simply one great movie easily on my top 5 list of all time. And I will post Walter's quote as to how I feel about the movie.



Quote:
Pacino and De Niro together for the first time in a film, headlining an excellent cast.

Quote:
Mann's gifted eye for filming Los Angeles at night, and Dante Spinotti's fine cinematography.
Quote:
A crime thriller that contrasts relationships on both sides of the law with thoughtful, considered dialog.

Quote:
A filmmaker who is willing to tell his story patiently, allowing the film time to develop its characters.
Quote:
The single best choreographed and edited robbery / gun battle committed to film.
Quote:
Excellent sound design throughout the film, in particular during the opening heist sequence, and later following the bank robbery.


Oh and did I mention this,
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The single best choreographed and edited robbery / gun battle committed to film.


Nothing has ever came close to that intense gun battle scene.

And as far as the new dvd goes, I have to buy it. I already sold my original copy. And I would still buy it even if I had my original copy. Even if there is only a slight improvement in picture and sound quality this would still be worth the purchase.

\"I\'m your Huckleberry\"

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#89
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If I missed it in the first 90 posts, I apologize, but has anyone else besides Herb compared the 2 dvds? Looking at the screen shots is nice, but obviously not the same as comparing the dvds while watching them. I own the original disc and if the new picture is actually better could see spending for it. Right now, Herb has said the pq is roughly the same and I don't think anyone else has said "I have both versions and the new one looks better."
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#90
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Of course, great actors make good movies even better. Heck, they make crappy movies good.


Yeah but you're missing my point, having these particular two actors together in the movie is what in my opinion makes it special and a collectors item. I don't really care how Michael 'Miami Vice' Mann stages the bank robberies or how flashy or loud his movie is, the fact that Pacino and De Niro are in it is what interests me the most. And your overly enthusiastic post reinforces my opinion that this film is definitely overrated.

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Even if Russell and Costner were cast instead of DeNiro and Pacino this still would have been the best epic crime drama ever made.


You can't have seen many crime dramas then, LA Confidential is far better, less noisy just as violent and more enjoyable than Heat, IMO.

The flesh is weak, Johnny. Only the soul is immortal. And yours belongs to ME.

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