best portrayal of woman, and men in movies.

With stereotypes so prevalent in movies, I was thinking of what I considered some of the most accurate and astute characters representing female and male psyches out there. Some I came up with would be.

WOMAN
Woman have a long tradition of sexism in Hollywood, but they also have a stronger unified voice that communicates many of the issues they face.
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1) Mean girls -a bit of a farce, but there is refreshing truth there as well.

2) The Good Girl -nice, nuanced portrayal of a woman stuck in a dead end life.

3) Sex and the City -a series, sometimes over the top and shrill, but very well done and astute.

4) Any series by Zwick and co...I.e. My So Called Life, and Once and Again, ThirtySomthing. All amazingly well written.

5) Thirteen -gritty and shocking portrayal of girls entering adolescent.

MEN
Men are difficult to portray accurately. We still suffer many societal stereotypes and social pressures, yet lack a consolidated modern social movement to communicate the prejudices. Men do Benefit from a history of largely monopolizing the main perspective in movies and art.
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1) In the company of men -touches on some very accurate aspects of the male psyche despite going a bit over the top. The frustration of the "nebish" man over the woman choosing the sociopathic bully over him, despite the bullies obvious misogynistic behavior, as well as some of the dialogue, rings very true.

2) Some aspects of Sideways, though it is a touch romanticized. About Schmidt is also solid, showing accurate ennui and listlessness from the male perspective.

3) Much of Woody Allen is very astute, but it can often sacrifice honesty for the sake of comedy.

4) perhaps Punch Drunk Love. A bit of a fairytale, but some nice subtle work there.

MEN
Billy Zane in Titanic
Chris Sarandon in The Princess Bride
Daffy Duck in Ali Baba Bunny


WOMEN
Shelley Winters in Pete's Dragon
Adrianne Barbeau in Creepshow ("The Crate")
Prince John in Disney's Robin Hood

ah yes...sarcasm....

Roger Dodger

In seriousness...anything by Cameron Crowe, for both.

Nails it,
Chuck

Two can play that game

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H

Wait, you're asking for examples of the most nuanced stereotypes?

The mind... boggles.

no, the most well written characters. Nuanced, well written, chracters that represent the subtleties of their gender....sigh...

I'd say various Woody Allen films.

Hamlet
Blanche Dubois

In all seriousness, the strongest female character I can think of is Ripley from the first two Alien films (I'm not a fan of the other two and where they took her). One tough persona, but her motivations are always distinctly female. On the complete opposite end of the spectrum are the romantic, fanciful adventures of Amelie.

On the masculine side of things, Citizen Kane I think has a lot to say about the male persona. Some war movies also shine a lot of insight there, with perhaps Saving Private Ryan being the standout.

An interesting choice, especially as Ripley was written as a male. When the casting choice was made, the decision was made (wisely in my opinion) to not rewrite at all.

As far as realistic male and female roles go, there are many. Pick almost any film by Yasujiro Ozu or Abbas Kiarostami, the Apu Trilogy of Satyajit Ray, many of the films of Akira Kurosawa such as Ikiru and lots of the Italian neo-realism movies like The Bicycle Thief.

I was originally thinking of Citizen Kane, but since Patrick beat me to it, I chose some non-American films.

I actually think When Harry Met Sally does a great job of capturing the thinking and differences between men & women.

ALIEN was an interesting choice. When thinking about Ripley, I always go back one year to Gaylen Ross in DAWN OF THE DEAD. Women characters in these types of films were usually the ones to scream and go hide while the men took care of the monsters but this really changed here. At first, her character was written as a "wimp" ala Barbara from NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD but Ross had Romero change it so it would give women a new look in horror films. I'm not sure if this had an impact on ALIEN but I think both are good choices considering what women often do in horror films before these.

Senor Luis says it all in That Obscure Object of Desire

Agree with Lew's choices.

Others that come to mind:

She's Gotta Have It
Written On The Wind
The Lady Eve
Some Like It Hot
Sunrise
Manji
Shadows & Minnie & Moskowitz
Eyes Wide Shut

interesting that films from different eras and cultures are being chosen, when different generations as well as different cultures have very different gender characteristics and traditions. I supose as long as they portray the characteristics of their specific time period and culture then they are good choices. Some of the choices involving strong women dont nessisarily mean they accurately portray women. In fact, the strong ass kicking female is quickly becoming a modern cliche. From Alias to Charley's Angels to Tomb Raider and Kill Bill the modern female is no longer represented as weak and helpless. This stereotype may simple be the modern males' fantasy, the 2004 equivalent of the jiggly/giggly blond from 50 years ago. It is nice that strength has become an attractive female trait, but the reverse is still not true. A weak and helpless man is still mostly unattractive to women. The male protagonist, while allowed to be more sensative then in the past, still must command respect and demonstrate a command of the situation around him to be acceptable. Nice suggestions though, many films I wouldnt have thought of.

The strong woman has been a staple of Hollywood for a long time. Brook’s selection of The Lady Eve is a fine example—to which I would add almost every role Kathryn Hepburn ever played. As for the weak, helpless (and sensitive) man, a good number of the screwballs begin with just such characterizations: including such icons as Cary Grant and Henry Fonda, where the woman knows long before the man how the battle of the sexes will play out.

I had a female college professor who had an ironic theory that as women have gained influence in the real world, the film roles for women regressed at the same time, Julia Roberts and Sandra Bullock being a far cry from the mentally tough women that Barbara Stanwyck, Bette Davis, and Joan Crawford used to play. Kind of interesting to consider...

Swingers pretty much runs the gamut for male & female performances (although it's more male heavy than anything).

You've got the weak, vulnerable, unsure male character (Mike).

You've got the strong, confident, outgoing & supportive male friend(Trent/Double Down).

You've got the agressive, loud-mouthed, supportive yet selfish & arrogant male friend (Sue).

You've got the subdued, supportive, shy & understanding male friend (Rob)

Then there's the women...

The never-seen but often talked-about x-girlfriend, whom Mike continues to obsess over.

The "what car do YOU drive" snobby party girl.

The overeager machine gun talker (who's phone number is subsequently ripped to shreds).

The Las Vegas casino girls, sweet, but just out looking for a good time.

Nikki, the fickle barfly... ("Never call me again")

And then there's Heather Graham. The lone point of light in a sea of darkness. The sweet, attractive, nice, intelligent, and perky girl that every man wants to meet.

Yes... I loved Swingers.

Moe.

It is all in how you measure strength. Yes Hepburn, etc.. played strong woman, to a point, in that they were sassy and spoke their mind. Acerbic and somtimes manipulating. But they still retained the feminine qualities of glamour and "class" and were always working within a "mans world." The point of view was distinctly masculine representing them. They generally eventually fell for a man who held more social power then them, and never really fell in love with a guy who they commanded in the relationship. As to "wimpy" men in farces, etc...these are not leading men in the romatic sense. One of the running jokes with Woody Allen is how he always casts himself against these beautiful bomshells, yet we all know a real guy like woody could not be seen with them. A romantic leading man still has to be physically taller then the woman, command social power, and generally be in charge of his surroundings. The female lead, however, has been reinvented to be downright all powerfull. Superheros who command all situations and can destroy anything that gets in their way.

There are fantasy exceptions to these rules, as in Topher Grace getting the girl in Win a Date with Tad Hamilton, or the various 80s teen comedies where the nerd gets the cheerleader in the end. But these are not true representations of a romatic leading man. They are simple fantasies played out for the Audience.

Woman also have a long history of always being the moral compass in films. Their instincts are always correct while the male's impulses lead to tragedy and comedy. A drastic change to this is Tea Leoni in Spanglish, and the backlash aainst her character has been considerable.

Interesting topic.

But there is as much variation of personality in blood and bone men and women, - as there are numbers of films. I see moments in film which strike true to life.

Portrayals of 3 'types' of women from the movie known for the line; “Fasten your seatbelts. It’s going to be a bumpy night”. All About Eve hit the mark of some real women I have come across throughout life.

I have never liked Bet Davis, but there were several real female archetypes fleshed out in that film…of a kind.

The self-destructive vicious plotting between Eleanor of Aquintaine and Henry II in Lion in Winter, hits a mark for intelligent ambitious people I have known, towering over the general masses in savvy yet dimwittedly busy destroying their personal lives while amassing power and fortune.
Katherine Hepburn was a woman I wanted to be when growing up, independent strong self-reliant. My Grandmother had her core work ethic and Hepburns I can do-it my-self attitude. Caught (my grandmother not Katherine) on a ladder cleaning leaves out of gutters at age 82..
Many of Ms Hepburns roles were tongue in check female zaniness, yet one moment in which I felt she drew upon her own experience of life, a moment which all other intelligent beautiful women over the world could relate to in reaction, was during Lion in Winter. Two scenes. When she asks Henry to kiss Alais (pronounced Alice) before her, so that she can see what she imagines. Asking with a vicious pride but cannot control the tear that rolls down her face when Henry angryly complies. Later when she sits in her room with her hair down before her mirror lamenting the loss of youth and great beauty, and the power over men which flees with it; just before the 3 Plantagenet heirs who are roaming the castle come to complain to "Mother". A classic cornerstone moment for a woman.

Lion in Winter would be the most accurate emulation in film, to portray a couple's complex and savage desire to rend each other during divorce at the end of a communal past which priorly held love and deep connectivity.

If my husband ever found a “Alice’ I would be more vicious and conniving in my pain than Hepburn expressed.
Peter O’Tooles portrayal of the other side of this equation seemed realistically torn human and very MALE to me.

I love the more realistic male (or female) “Hero” types in film when they are endowed with real moments of glitch and doubts, like the rest of us. As when "Dunbar" knocks himself out on the doorbeam or faints dead away after “Wind in His Hair” charges him in Dances With Wolves. I like that flavor of reality in Hero characters. I noticed I picked mostly bad moments of female/male characteristics in film. Will have to think on the good.

And to come up with a whole movie, which has a female or male characters who ring real and consistently so, is difficult.

I thought Paul Newman's and Bruce Willis' characters in Nobody's Fool were pretty authentic. I also thought that Steve McQueen's character, Papa Thorson in The Hunter was an honest portrayal. But, to paraphrase Mary;

Gregory Peck was the kind of man I wanted to be when I grew up, a man of quite strength, dignity, and the best shot in the county!

To be serious, Gregory Peck's character in To Kill a Mockingbird, Atticus Finch, portrayed the very best of what every man should aspire to be, the kind of man we all wished we could be.

That is interesting. So often a society's art, especially cinema, represents what people desire and need, or aspire to, but don't actually have in daily life. If mature women aren't feeling the need for power because they are achieving it, then the art will turn to other desires. Maybe working women now desire the fantasy of being relieved of all that pressure now.

But then Erin Brockovich is a film that celebrates the powerful woman so some Roberts roles are still on par with Stanwyck or Davis.


I totally agree with Chuck, all things Crowe. I mean if that's not his strength then I don't know what is.


All About Eve and About Schmidt are great examples of the fears of aging each sex faces.

Atticus , MY HERO!!!

My next dog will be named Atticus (if it suits him)
What a great example of the good often seen in real men, and I have known several, not least of which my husband, who reflect in their daily lives a large portion of the dignity, respect for human rights and the capacity for love which Atticus emotes. My guy has a little bit of Adam Sandler and Mel Gibson’s tempers and sometimes inappropriate sense of humor in his real world mix for interest, but I have seen him pull an Atticus response to situation’s many many times.

Maybe working women now desire the fantasy of being relieved of all that pressure now. Personally I agree with you Seth and would not be at all surprised to see more films like Sweet Home Alabama and such ilk, displaying women chucking it all for the simpler life, being produced in the future

The old adage applies here for women………be careful what you wish for.


I know most would disagree, but I tend to think of the more modern black humor style films as the only ones, which touch real life cords in me. The Royal Tenenbanns, (real life interpersonal relationships ARE that crazy) Fargo, (for its juxtaposition of how much bad guys/good guys do understand each other) …no concept of each other’s realities at all. I related to Donnie Darko’s quest for the “meaning of life” and “what is the point” and “do we have any effect at all” to an extreme. Also his dark sense of humor when confronted with, things which do not compute (6 ft scary rabbit).

I think its very interesting point that Ripley was written for a male, and yet Sigorourny portrayed a VERY believable (IMO) female (under those circumstances). There is more ‘female’ in males and “male” in females as regards our traits than most screenwriters allot for, when writing for a character. I agree if that is all true, it was indeed very wise not to rewrite the role of Ripley for the sex change during casting and if they had, Ripley would not have been as well-rounded character as she was. Years ago I literally saved my best friend from severe injury or death when a Mare was charging at her while she was unprotected and on foot. I screeched something with “Back off, - you BITCH” in it, as I was coming in. I died laughing when I heard Ripley yell the “Get away from her…” line. And I could sympathize with the rage and determination, in her voice behind that sentence.

All of the above because, - that is my somewhat off center take on the world. I only see ‘moments’ with characters. As a female internally a whole swath of me was Donnie Darko at that age. I think those actors/actresses that impress us as ‘real’ are many times reflections of our own individual state at any given moment in our life.

I have never seen one male or one female actor who portrayed a best “synopsis” of their sex. There are two many facets of possibility for each gender, in this world.

Some that come to my mind with characters that I considered well nuanced in who they are supposed to be as a portrayal:

Rounders - one of the few films that gets the card game and mentality right. Too bad the TV show "Tilt" loses all of it and goes terribly overboard.

Closer - great back and forth regarding power and truth, and the characters play as real.

Garden State

The Graduate - maybe one of the best portrayals of confused youth

Return of the Jedi - frankly, Vader's turn against the emporer is pretty effective and true to what you'd expect

I also like the Daffy Duck comment above by Ernest, though I would choose 1001 Tales, as he really represents a meglomaniac duck in almost every way you'd expect

I´d say your guy is pretty lucky to have you feel that way about him. Who among us would not like to be compared to Atticus Finch?

Well, my mother thinks I am a good man, does that count?

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H

Well I've been compared to Fielding Mellish.