NBA Basketball 2004-2005 thread

Miami makes the conference finals by default. They won't have a better record the either Detroit (or, assuming they get back on their feet), Indiana. They get O'Neal and Jackson back in January or February, and that's more then enough time for them to get things together. Hell, historically the Spurs are around .550 then before they make their annual run to compete for the best record in the league, and they play in the West. I still think Indy gets the four spot in the East, which means they face Detroit in the conf. semis. However, even if they drop below Cleveland to number 5, they still take out Cleveland in round one, then face off against Detroit in the semis. And frankly, there's no way they drop below five, after the top three, the east just plain flat isn't good enough. So in the end, Miami takes out a creampuff in round one, the creampuff winner of the Atlantic division in round two, and then makes the conf. finals. They're in by default, unless somehow Indy slips below five but not all the way to eight. And if that happens, they've been playing so poorly that Miami beats them anyway, because that means they still suck it up after O'Neal and Jackson return.

And I also agree that the penalties were too severe. Had this been a normal game where Artest went off after a beer was thrown at him, then things would be acceptable, but this wasn't a normal game. Things were already so highly charged that all it took was one thing to make things blow up. Striking a match in your kitchen isn't the same as striking a match at a gasoline station. Normally that beer, while only a match, would have been ignored, but there was too much stuff in the air. that old cliché about the straw that broke the camel's back exists for a reason.

I wonder if part of it is to send a message regarding the league's image. While I think the NBA generally gets a bum rap, at least in comparison to other pro sports leagues, it can't be denied that *a lot* of casual fans regard it as a league of thugs and criminals and an incident like this only reinforces that, so giving out such severe penalties for this incident might be David Stern's way of saying to the media that he's going to be less tolerant of player misconduct from now on in hopes of repairing the league's once-wholesome image.

Well Jan, if my boss had repeatedly said that going into the stands regardless of provocation would not be tolerated and would result in suspension, I don’t think I would have—and I expect that not many others would have either.

It is true that Artest was provoked. It is also true that all pro athletes (at least NBA, NFL, MLB) are cautioned over and over to never go into the stands.

I think that mature adults would (given the cautions mentioned) in fact not react in that manner.

I understand that argument, Lew, but in that particular situation I don't know of anyone who would've kept his cool. What happened to Artest went beyond mere provocation, IMO.

But lest I'm sounding like what Artest did was somehow justifiable, I don't mean to. It was wrong and he is being punished for it. I merely am suggesting that what he did was not inexplicable.

Hypothetical question: What would the punishment have been if it had been David Robinson who 'snapped' and went into the stands throwing blows because a fan threw a beer on him? Forgive the heresy, Spurs fans, I'm just trying to make a point about the fundamentally hypocritical way in which David Stern runs the NBA.

Jan, IMO if you substitute out Artest, and substitute in anyone else the suspention is the same.

I Said this in the other thread, but Stern had no choice but to be tough. Maybe the suspention was too harsh, but from his point of view it is better that the public find him to be too harsh on the player than not harsh enough. If they don't find his punishment to be all that meaningful then they might decide not to go to NBA games, and since the league is ticket driven that's when it starts to hurt.

If the player is different but the result of his actions is still the same thing that went down on Friday then the suspention should be the same thing. I don't get questions like what if it were Grant Hill or David Robinson because nobody will ever know the answer. It was Ron Artest and Ron Artest was punishment.

The biggest problem with those questions is assuming that Robinson or Hill would've acted the same way as Artest when that itself can not be known.

My first point in this whole thing was that Artest is hardly the first person in sports to have a beer thrown at him, and a large number of those who have did not react in the same way he can. If other guys can handle it then why shouldn't we expect that he should as well. As Lew said, the players know they are not to enter the stands for any reason, and you know that the rule is on the book for a reason.

Fans should never throw beers on players.
Fans throwing beers on players does not give the players the right or the excuse to dole out vengeance.
I'm going to twist the old saying 2 wrongs don't make a right in to something a little different. 1 wrong does not make another wrong right.

So, ultimately if Stern is too harsh which IMO he wasn't, he had to be. It is a lot harder for people to claim he was too light on Artest, since he's out for the rest of the season but it would've been a whole lot easier for that sentiment to take hold if he had only gotten 35 games.

Is that necessarily fair, maybe maybe not but Stern has to consider how the public is going to view his league after that and how they react to the punishment is a function of that, which is why I say regardless of the player the punishment would've been the same.

I can almost see Stern standing there and saying: "years of being a statesmen for the league are not enough to wipe out the reprehensable actions of the weekend." something to that effect if it had been someone else. Heck Jermaine is considered to be one of the NBA's good guys and is also viewed as the Pacer that was the least in the wrong of the 3 and he only got 5 games less than Jackson.

One may disagree but in my view, someone with a good record would've gotten the same fait. Of course, I don't think that David Robinson would've charged in to the stands looking for a fight.

Now can the discussion of Artest and all this stuff be confined to that thread, I have heard that there are other things happening in the NBA.

How about Charlotte beating Detroit last night? I believe this is the first time a first year expansion team has defeated a defending champion in over 33 years. Yeah Wallace was out, but Charlotte has been playing with teams lately.

Ok, I'll respond in the other thread.

I'm really shocked by the Sonics. Anybody think they're for real?

A couple of other things I've noticed thus far:

This year's 2003-04 Lakers Dysfunction Award so far has to go to the T-Wolves. To me, they have the most talent in the league but are sniping and whining about extra-basketball issues, to the detriment of the team.

The Mavs have a pretty solid, well-balanced team this year, Dirk's injury nothwithstanding.

The Rockets are the Heat of the West: Great big man and guard, little else.

The Spurs are the same force they've always been and with Barry, they're stronger than last year.

The Jazz are the model for how to rebuild a team (Are you reading this, Jerry Krause?)

The Grizz are finding out they can't sneak up on anybody anymore.

The Suns, Nuggets and Sonics I'm not sold on. They'll have to show me a little more.

And the less said about the East, the better.

How about if I substitute in Vernon Maxwell? It's not just hypothetical to wonder what Stern would do then, we have it on record. To me, the buck stops there. Double or Triple for a repeat offender and you still have a penalty worse than Washington got for his vicious punch on a fellow player, and send the message that you are now 3 times tougher on the issue than you were 9 years ago.

But I've made that case in the other thread.


For this thread, let's just go (at least for now) that nothing will change from Stern.

Remember that its not just the Pacers hanging on till guys get back. Yes these guys were contributing major points but part of the reason was that other guys were out. Foster, AJ, and Miller all bite into the playing, rebounding and scoring of those guys when they return. Reggie was possibly going to replace Jackson in the starting lineup anyway.

This is a team that was playing 5-6 short every night already, and was still 7-2 at the time. So they are really only riding out 10 games roughly until they get back to a situation that is similar to what got them to 7-2.

Remember, during the first 9 injury plagued games Artest had already not played twice and O'Neal missed one game, plus came off the bench twice while recovering from injury.

That's right, this team has only had those 3 players on court at the same time in 6 of their 11 games.

Miller is older, but there is little reason to expect him to be sniffing Jackson's butt yet when it comes to scoring. Foster typically isn't the scoring option but he is a very strong player that goes overlooked due to stats. I sincerely think he's just this close to being Ben Wallace quality (defensive, rebouding, only scoring when needed). AJ is not Tinsley, but he is a lot stronger than Eddie Gill. I've seen them both play in person several times and Gill just isn't strong enough with the ball to be a regular in the NBA at this point.

So getting those 3 back after maybe 7-9 more games makes a nice impact, definitely gives you a big talent bump in some areas.

Then Bender should be back as the suspensions run out, and minus Ron the team is 100%. Of course other things, other injuries, might pop up before then. Pollard will be on and off the whole time, for example.



OTHER TEAMS

Sonics - yep, I think they are for real. Any time a team suddenly gets good I look at the talent behind it. In this case its far less surprising than Memphis was last year. Lewis has been maturing, Ray Ray just has one of the best all-around games in the NBA and is a terrific shooter (which the Olympics showed is lacking in the NBA).

PHX - Nash comes in, scoring goes to Dallas levels. I believe. I saw it with Mark Jax in Indy. A PG who can create situations, not just his own shots, can really amplify the other scoring talent on your team.

Jazz - wow Jan, you sure jinxed them with the Krause comment. I guess someone was reading it since the Bulls just got their first win of the year over UTH.

DET - okay, talk about not taking advantage of a situation, 2 losses in a row and a near miss the first night against CHA (at home no less).


Jan - I think you are giving HOU too much credit. I think Wade-Shaq are much stronger than TMac-Yao. Health is an issue, but other than that I think the East has 3 power teams this year, w/ CLE and ORL asking for some attention too. Once again there will be a couple of crap teams filling out the post season, but the top tier teams can still run with the best of the West (at least I think DET still can ).

Yeah, Houston's not as good as Miami, but it's the same basic formula. T-Mac and Yao really haven't shown they mesh well together yet, but Shaq and Wade are already gettin along famously. Miami's lack of depth, however, is already being exposed by the big teams out west.

I’ll follow Jan’s lead and make my Artest and co comments in the other thread.

In some ways the Mavs are actually better than last year—but they have some real growing up to do at point. Their assist total must be close to last so far this year. Either they break down the other teams defense one-on-one, put back a rebound, force a turnover (way up from last year) or don’t score. They sure miss Nash in this department.
Anyone else think that since Carmello Anthony was exposed against Minnessota in last year’s playoffs, he has not been the same.

I’ve not seen him play that much so far, but what I have seen does not look good. And scanning the box scores does not seem to suggest that he is playing at last year’s levels.

I agree on Carmello, he's got some holes in his game with decision making.

Drew Gooden & Lebron James play as a better "selfless pair" then I had imagined, lots of good passing which leads to lots of open shots. No, Gooden isn't a point scorer, but he plays good back-em-up defense and has been good about playing a multi-pass system.

Cleaveland won't go far in the playoffs, they'd get stopped by a team like Miami, etc. but right now, they are playing pretty well and I have no problem seeing them as a playoff contender.

The top four spots in the east playoffs are pretty clear, with the rest filling in.

1. Detroin/Indy
2. Miami
3. Winner of Atlantic Division
4. Detroit/Indy

If Cleveland finishes with either the 5, 7, or 8 seed they go out in round 1. They're not gonna beat Detroit, Indy, or Miami. They'd be lucky to take that series five games. However, if they manage to finish 6 and take on whoever manages to have the least horrific record in the Atlantic division, that's a series they could win. Then they get creamed by Miami in round 2.

I think it's nutty how Lebron can pretty much see eye-level with the rim when he's dunkin'.

Speaking of dunking....did anyone read/hear the Vince Carter invterview early in the week? He said that dunking was overrated and that he doesn't want to dunk anymore.

A day after that statement, he said he was just joking with the reporters (he looked pretty serious, so who knows?)

The tally of his dunks was one dunk before his "no dunk" statement (and the lone dunk was a freebie with no one past half-court...looked pretty plain too). And I believe the tally after his "it's a joke" statement is four dunks in two games(some of highlight level).

Hubie Brown steps down from the Grizzlies effective immediately, it appears, due to health concerns.. no stated reason beyond that.

Kandi-Man in Indy
First of all, when we heard the basics of the story we joked that it would be some lame bar like "Tiki Bobs" downtown (Or "Have a Nice Day Cafe"). Any of the more typical downtown pickup joints. Then we heard that it actually was.

Tazered TWICE. I saw the cop talking about it and said the first hit didn't seem to affect him. After the 2nd he finally went down to one knee.

Not mentioned nationally (that I have heard), at one point he said he wasn't leaving till he got his sweatshirt....which he was WEARING at the time. Yikes, that's drunk.

Bars close at 3 AM here. It's freaking Thanksgiving morning and you have a big game the next day. ANYONE out drunk past 3 AM on Thanksgiving probably needs some more family in their life.

I have heard plenty of stories of fans running into Pacers AFTER games in a bar late at night. I don't know about 3 AM late and wasted however. In any case, what team thinks its good to let players go out and get that drunk the night before a game?

T'Wolves really have some odd mental issues going on, the team chemistry just can't be that good.

Hubie
Can't say that the Griz will be just fine after this. He made a huge impact coming in, how can his loss not be felt going out. I wonder if health issues were already affecting his influence over the team (not respect, just his ability to give what was needed as a coach).

Damn shame either way, his story was 100% feel-good.


The game
Okay, any more questions about the Pacers depth, or about Tinsley? Yes, Kandi was out. But this was still Cassell, Hudson, KG, Hoiberg, Wally, Spree; this was the T'Wolves. And a lot of the game wasn't even as close as the final score.

IMO, if you are other East teams you should be feeling concern right about now because it seems unlikely to get any better. This is 2 games in a row that Indy had 10 point leads late in the 4th.

Home cooking helps a lot and I wonder how the youth will respond to the road, but again Indy had the best road record last year so Rick knows how to keep them focused it would seem. We will see.

For now I'll take 0 road wins and .667 at home, anything more than that is gravy.

PS - did I mention James Jones yet?
Good length, nice outside touch. Sort of makes Bender less important and more tradable.


Indy gets CHA tonight, then takes one of their nastier road swings though the weakest of the 3 four game West trips they make this year. Indy could go 3-7 over their next 10 if you count every road game as a loss, plus a loss to SAC at home. Still leaves them at 12-10 more than halfway through JO's suspension and with the injuried guys back (AJ has 3 more games on his suspension actually, Foster due back in 6-7, similar with Reggie).



Cavs
I don't know if they will end up being as weak as suggested. I think they could beat MIA in the post-season. You have to like the team's improvement so far. They have more to go, but when you consider where MIA was at this time last year you have to recognize that young teams can really tighten up by the 2nd half.

They have beaten PHX and DET so far. Granted Big Ben was out for DET, but still LJ went for 43 points!!

Plus, what's up with these numbers: DET PPG allowed = 97.5, CLE PPG All. = 90.9. Cleveland really crushed DET offense the other night, and while Ben helps there you can't blame his absence for that many missing points.


Just when you thought the worst sports of T'Day was Bears-Dallas, did anyone realize that the 2nd NBA game was freaking NJ and LAC? Yeesh.

DET
1-5 on the road, 4-1 at home. What is up with them? It's starting to bug me, esp. that road record. BTW, the 1 home loss I think we are all familiar with. Couple that with the road record and the return of some Pacers, not to mention an extremely intense Conseco crowd, and I'm starting to wonder if DET can actually win on Xmas.

I mean how do the odds look better than they did for Minny, esp once you replace Britton Johnsen, Tremaine Fowlkes, and John Edwards with Reggie, AJ and Jeff Foster. And yes, Johnsen and Fowlkes actually got some PT in the Minny game after joining the team the day before. Edwards is bad enough that he did not.


Also, Indy did just get some PEYback.
I'll be honest, the fans here did see it as some sort of revenge, esp the WORST T'day loss ever for DET.

I don't think it's quite about meshing; they seem to mesh fine. The problem is that Yao is too easily taken out of games by small players fronting him in the post. Until Van Gundy and Yao do something to overcome that defense, teams are just going to keep on shutting him down. Personally, I think they should let him face the basket more often instead of trying to turn him into Patrick Ewing.

The Timberwolves may have taken over the spot formerly held by the Shaq/Kobe express as the most interesting team in the NBA...and not necessarily for what happens on the court. I agree with what Seth said about the Candy Man's Thanksgiving celebration.

LeBron is awesome, just awesome.

I agree with Seth again, so see you guys we don't always disagree, about the New Jersey/Clipper game. Ok, I can sort of kind of see the logic behind New Jersey playing on Thanksgiving night seeing as how when the schedule was made it was thought that Kidd would be back by then and New Jersey hadn't ruined its team completely when the schedule was announced.

But, of all the teams in the West they could've played, why did it have to be the Clippers? What about the Clippers last year, or ever suggested that they would be a good team to showcase on Thanksgiving? I almost couldn't believe that was the game when I first saw it.

A third agreement with Seth, on the Grizzlies situation it certainly was a feel good story, and when that move was first made everyone thought it was a joke, nobody thought it was a joke after they made the playoffs last year.

I was impressed by the way the Pacers were playing last night. It has been said already once, but don't overlook the fact that when O'Neil and Jackson come back...they will have the freshest legs in the whole league, which makes them that much more dangerous come playoff time. I'd say you've got 5 playoff teams in the East, Detroit, Indiana, Miami, Cleveland, and Orlando. League rules stipulate that the Atlantic division must be represented so we'll just throw in Philadelphia since any one of the 5 teams you pick from that division will be gone in round 1 it really doesn't matter which we pick for any hypethetical scenario.

Yeah, I think I like Philly there too. Despite Ricky Davis getting his game under control (he was greatly improved over what I saw in person last year - ie, a real chucker) and Doc Rivers on the bench, they don't seem to really have it all together. Not just in wins, but in what you see on the court.

I have zero belief in Isiah to run anything basketball at this point, or with Marbury to run a team from the floor, so the Knicks don't impress me.

Toronto is an interesting one. I actually think they also have a shot at the division, but Vince Carter is all over the place emotionally.

Right now the 3 division thing is only making the East weaker come the post season.



I'll tell ya, I really think that COACHING goes a lot farther in the NBA than fans give credit for. We saw it with the Pacers as Brown took them to the next level and Bird/Carlisle/Harter took them another step past that.

You can give Isiah the whole "players were learning" thing, but this guy got handed Tinsley (who had 2 triple doubles his rookie year), O'Neal, and still had Rose and Miller (healthy), plus Foster, Croshere, Bender and Harrington. Then he got Artest and Brad Miller.

Funny how Carlisle is able to take scrubs so much farther than Isiah could go with what was basically last year's roster PLUS Brad Miller.

Turn to DET and look at Carlisle and Brown both, esp. what has been going on as Brown has been away partly. Look at the Griz, look at Stan Van Gundy's effect (that team improved over the season) in MIA.

Sloan goes without saying, Aldeman, Saunders.

I think Nate McMillan fits the classic mold as well, the solid 2nd tier player who used his brains to keep up as much as his talent. The whole "stars don't make good coaches" thing.


Don't get me wrong, one thing just as big as the coach is a ball-handling type of player who can control the offensive flow. Be it a Nash or Mark Jax type, Barkley from the post, MJ as a 2 guard, Billups as a more physical PG, just a guy that can make sure that you can always run a quality offensive set.

People think the NBA is just wide open and throwing the ball around, but there is a subtle difference between a quality shot and an open shot. Guys like to get the ball in a certain place with certain foot timing, etc. and you really do need offensive plays that work to get those.

I love playing something like ESPN 2K5 NBA to see just how effective an extra screen can be. Just play defense and let the CPU run a play on you, even when you are using your best guy and trying to stop their best guy a set of tricky screens leaves you fronting instead of playing behind him, or cutting under a screen when you needed to go around.

Coaches and ball-handling PLAYMAKERS (not just shooters) make these things happen.

Yeah because you could get rid of possibly the second best team in the conference in the second round. You know the easiest way to get around this is to do what the NHL does and resead everyone after the first round.

So lets say Detroit has the best record, Miami is next, and Indiana ends up with the third best record in the conference. We'll slide Philadelphia in, but after the first round Indiana would become the 3 sead and Philadelphia the 4 Making Det/Phi and Mia/Ind.

Of course that kind of thing makes sense so expect the NBA not to do it.

We could have an endless thread on this subject alone, but in the realm of ridiculous on-air Bill Walton quotes, yesterday's Kings-Lakers game had a true classic. He was talking about Rudy T, and he said something like, "Rudy's eventually going into the Basketball Hall of Fame as a coach, and he's already in the Hall of Fame of Life." The Hall of Fame of Life?! Bill, please, just stick to the Wooden quotes when you want to say something poignant.

Speaking of Kings-Lakers, what a great finish to that game. Sacramento shot very poorly for most of the 4th quarter, but it was a great game overall, and the last 3 minutes were like 2002 Western Conference finals vintage. Tremendously exciting, clutch threes on one end answered by clutch threes on the other, etc.

Walton is just horrrrrrrrrible! (as he would say) and I almost changed my whole stance on the Artest thing when I found out what his position was...mainly because it was essentially the same position I held, and the fact that Walton shared it was more than troubling.

I'm still waiting for the TV that allows me to mute Walton specifically and keep all the rest of the sound.

Pass on the recommendation if you find one Casey, I'd like to have one myself.

Actually I quite like Walton as a commentator.

I like Walton, too. He makes me laugh

Krusty the Clown makes me laugh, but I don't think I want him commentating on NBA games. I'd take him over Walton any time though.

Walton started off decent but has since become a self-caricature with his annoying constant use of hyperbole. For some reason he is under the impression that this makes for poetic language, failing to recognize the importance of contrasting it with some subtlety once in a while.

He sounds like a 10th grade goof trying to deliver "deep" poetry for English class.



I know not a lot of people will buy into this, but let's just say that it is possible for the Pacers to win it all without Artest. Certainly I feel they have the depth to do so.

Something that then becomes interesting/helpful for the organization in an effort to REPEAT would be Artest's return the following season. You would be giving the champions an instant star, like the Spurs drafting Duncan except without losing, and on top of that you would be adding a guy to the roster with a real desire to earn a ring himself.

Artest loves to play ball, it shows in his practice efforts, his off-season routine, and in how he plays the game. The money hurts him, but I think the time off will eat at him more. By next season he will be chomping at the bit to both redeem himself and to play ball, and that means instant repeat motivation.

In that way this whole thing has set the Pacers up for 2 years worth of motivation, first as underdogs against the world then with Artest rejoining the team wanting his own part of it.

Of course this doesn't come for free, the team must be able to compete without him, but with what they have now PLUS O'Neal, Jackson, Foster, AJ, Miller and maybe Bender, I do think they are a top contender still.

The whole thing is still totally bizarro world.

Adding to the theme, the Dallas Mavricks beat the Memphis Grizzlies Saturday 98-85. Now the causal observer might think, ‘no big deal.’ In fact it has been over a week since the Mavs scored more than 100. But more strangley, it was the way they won. They held Memphis to 27 points in the second half, including only 11 in the last period.

In short, they won by playing defense.

Truly bizarre.

He'd fit right in in the WWE.

Dallas playing defense? What has happened to this league?

The Lakers vs. Kings game the other night was a pretty good one, and even though I'm still not sold on Sacramento and think they could implode...right now the early favorite for that possible award is still Minnesota.

I think in the East Indiana still looks like they can win it all but it becomes a long shot again when you get in to playoff series and are seeing the same team every night for an eternity and a half like last year. That will be when the Artest thing hurts especially against someone like San Antonio.

Hey, if the Pacers can pull it off that would be a great story...although they probably won't be making a movie out of it like they did for the 1980 U.S. Hockey team but who really cares about that if you've got a ring?

It helps Indiana that they'll get 2 great players with fresh legs for the stretch run, and that their record probably indactes a lower sead, but they'll miss Artest when it comes time to play all of those physical games with Detroit without a stop in Boston or a home game against Charlotte in the middle. How they make the adjustments then will ultimately be the determining factor.

Miami is 9 and 1 against the East this year and lost the one game by a point so don't discount them yet either.

Its still early, we haven't even gotten to the point in the year when we all start bitching about how long the season is yet.

It doesn't exist. I've been looking for that option for Jerry Glanville, Brent Musburger, etc. for years.