NBA Basketball 2004-2005 thread

Come on Seth--you don´t have to be that much of an apologist. Artest is a grown man, making grown man money. If you think that he should be viewed as an underage kid, then he should not be playing with the grownups.

Regardless of your slightly revisionist history (he was not without some considerable fault last year, for example), Artest is regularaly involved in too many physical, verbal and overall emotional loss of control to say everyting´s now OK and it is time to just move on.

As for the fight--at the end of the day players that respond to fans are in the wrong--and everyone of them know it. This gets explained over and over to the players before the start of each season (the same in the MLB). They all know that they can´t go into the stands--or even physically assult fans that are no longer in the stands.

Personally I agree with Charles Barkley´s comment before one of the games where he said that Artest needed to get some professional help. He is not the first (and likely won´t be the last) player to be extremely talented, but mentally troubled.

Here is hoping that he will get the help he needs.

I think it is reasonable to ask if others would have acted the same way Artest and Jackson did under the circumstances. What I think is harmful is the reinforcement that one should or must act that way to be considered a real man. The way athletes behave is not just a matter of personal psychology (though that certainly is a big part), but also social expectations or code of behavior.

That is where my comment comes from, I apologize if my previous post was too personal.

ESPN is reporting that Artest, Ben Wallace, Jackson and O'Neal have been suspended indefinitely until the NBA investigation is completed.





Crawdaddy

I can understand Jackson, Artest, and O'neal being suspended since they went into the stands and fought with fans, but Ben Wallace? WTF? All he did was shove Artest hard and throw a towel at him.

I'm sure that's probably not the only word he doesn't know the meaning of. On the rap CD thing, Seth I hope I don't need to send you a get well card you bent over backwards so much to defend Ron on this that I fear your spine may have snapped. As Lew said, if you're wanting to compare him to a Teenager what's he doing in an adult league, making adult money, and expected to carry himself like an adult?
The fact is that whether he asked for the time off, or whether the coach gave him the time off really isn't the issue. I mean he wasn't physically injured or anything. Forget for a second that this was Ron that did this, what would you be saying if this were I don't know A.I. or Kobe Bryant that found themselves in a situation like that. For me, I wouldn't bend over backwards to defend it for anyone, there is one standard on the issue, regardless of whether the player is on my favorite team or not.
Just look at what he said. He made comments during the season that he wasn't going to focus on what he gets paid millions of dollars to do for a living, until after he was done promoting one of his side projects. Think of it from the league standpoint, you've basically got a player telling fans in a backhanded way that the games that they are paying large money to attend are not really worth it.
He may have never made an unreasonable request in the past, and he may havve been a team guy previous but that does not justify him being an ass now, and I fail to see how all those flagrant fouls a couple of years ago helped the Pacers...I must have missed their ring ceremony after that particular year. Its like if I go out and commit a crime and then tell the cops, hey that's alright I had a clean record up to this point. Good behavior in the past, does not justify bad behavior in the present. That's one reason I have almost 0 respect for Kobe Bryant, because of his initial defense against the rape alegations. When he said to reporters, hey you know me would I do something like that?


Yeah and nobody ever got tired of part 1 of that now did they?


I hope that this doesn't mean what I think it means. I hope this is one of those times when a tongue and cheek remark gets right past me. Your comment looks like you're celebrating this kind of behavior. Its like you have now been vindicated by you're remarks about the toughness in the east because of a wild brawl between 2 Eastern teams and some drunken fans. I'm not sure what that has to do with the game of basketball outside of the fact that it took place in a basketball arena during the game. It certainly isn't part of the game.
But, if things like last night are what you use to point out what true toughness really is, then I'm quite happy if the West is thought of as the weaker conference.
That comment is as rediculous as if I were to say that since it didn't happen between 2 Western conference teams then that must mean that the West is the more sportsman like conference with better fans. The argument is imperfect to begin with because there are classy and classless fans no matter where in the NBA landscape you choose to look, and there are tough players all over the place. Some may be able to keep their heads on better than others but that has nothing to do with the conference they play in, but again if what happened last night proves to you and is supposed to show the world how tough the east really is, then they can have the label.

DAMMIT...where was Darko through all of that, I mean come on, he has to be able to do something for the Pistons...

Sorry, just trying to shed a little humor on this horrible day.

Seriously, when I first heard about this incident I had 2 thoughts.

1. When did the NHL's lockout end?
2. Where was Darco?

I wanted to know what he was up to.

That was my point, that my team is now part of some ugly rivalry instead of the best pair of teams in the NBA.


One of two within the same post as a matter of fact. It makes it very difficult to believe you understand anything I'm saying. Jesus, I even said "ugly point". It doesn't get clearer than that.


And you totally missed the point of the teenager analogy. It was a family analogy with Ron's behavior being like a goofy teen. The point being that there is a big difference between being goofy and taking a stand against dad or the family. Ron may of said some WEIRD stuff, but he took Carlisle's punishment well and publically defended his coach's decision over and over, as well as his coach's role as leader and authority over the team.

It would be far different if he challenged Carlisle, demanded more money, didn't show up those nights, or did some other defiant action. He conformed immediately.


My biggest point in all of this is that THE REP far excedes the reality now. All it would take is another minor incident to get Sheed relabled as out of control too. In fact had it been Sheed instead of Ben the other night, he would be getting a lot more blame than Ben is (which would be INCORRECT IMO).


Actually its totally the issue. How does this affect anyone outside the Pacers organization? It's their call and the one they made signaled "not a big deal". Everyone OUTSIDE the situation with no vested interest in it made it into a big deal.

Sorry but Larry and Carlisle make the calls for the Pacers, not you, Lew and sportwriters. I don't think a tradeable offense gets a guy benched for 2 games WITH PAY. That was my entire point. And calling for a trade that the team clearly indicated was not warranted also makes no sense to me.

Actions speak louder than contradictory words out of Artest's mouth a few days after the incident, and the action was "sit down for 2 games with pay". That explicitly says how bad they felt the situation was, and it doesn't sound very bad at all to me. Quite minor.

Really? And what were these incidents? And what was the rate 2 years ago before Carlisle? And do we allow for people to improve over time? And do we expect this improvement to be all or nothing?

Ron had a highly debated flagrant foul call that many locals felt was a flop by Rip. No, not just me. This was strongly discussed locally and still to me looks like Rip recoils in the wrong direction from Ron, as well as running his own cheek into Ron's raised elbow.

Even a flagrant foul is not "out of control", otherwise the NBA has real issues.

So what else was there last year? I think my point is getting stronger, fans like you now believe the hype and the rep more than the current situation. Barring the fan part of the other night, Ron was behaving perfectly well. He didn't even step to Ben AT ALL. Not even for a second before catching himself.

In fact, before the fan fight broke out it was Ben Wallace who was behaving like Ron's rep, not Ron. Funny, because I'm sure that point wouldn't be taken by you or most anti-Artest fans.

I think you need to read this

Or maybe you remember this "ugly" moment
Ron won defensive player and was an all-star in large part to his greatly improved attitude last season. In looking up moments from 2003 what you find is endless issues 2 years ago and practically nothing last season. In fact this is the reality of it, from the same article regarding the playoff suspension .

I'm sorry Casey, but if you don't see how totally unsubstantiated your "considerable fault last year" comment was then I don't know what to say. Personally I like to look up facts as much as I can before throwing stuff out there.


For the record, I'm not even on Ron's side here, but from an Artest hater or a person who doesn't get the local coverage I'm sure it sounds like it. Just like a political moderate sounds left to the far right and right to the far left.

Saying "Carlisle simply sat him for 2 games" sure ain't bending over backward. It's freaking reality, facts. Considerable fault last year is not facts.

Another fact, as reported by Marc Stein of ESPN Ron said the following Others from inside the organization have also backed this version up. In fact, as I understand it the album part partly got brought up because he had used up his off time with the album and was feeling burned out in general from not being with his family.

Of course the reaction is "tough shit, this is your job", but such a request sure falls in line with "sit 2 games with pay" more than a request to go work on the R&B album he produced (also misreported as his own rap album which just goes to show how out of control 2nd hand info can get).



Ron is a guy who has DRAMATICALLY improved his behavior under Carlisle, but unfortunately all anyone sees is the rep still. I get why that happens but at the same time I think people should recognize change. Before Detroit fans took justice and interaction into their own hands, Ron was being a model player despite very serious provocation by Wallace.

Meanwhile, the incident and Stern's 3 player suspension immediately has actually done wonders for Pacers support. We went to the Magic game tonight and everyone agreed it was the loudest we had ever heard the fans in Conseco (not known for the loud atmosphere that MSA used to have).

Now I disagree with that a bit. I have heard it louder for a few playoff games, but for a regular season game against a revamped Magic squad with no particular issue with the Pacers the crowd was insane. At one point they chanted "FRED-DIE, FRED-DIE" as loudly as they have ever chanted for Reggie.

It was some of the most spontaneous cheering I've ever heard out of Indy fans.

I myself felt a hunger for victory that I haven't felt since the 98 Bulls series or the early 90's 5 game set with the Celtics (the Person-Bird series).

I honestly think that this situation has created an extremely strong "us vs them" mentality beyond any I have ever seen for any Indy team, and in a town with a long history of also-rans and just missed teams that's saying something.


The Pacers played with SIX GUYS. SIX. Think about that. And one of them was John Edwards, a guy who would have trouble making a former CBA squad.

The 6 man roster that came within a 3 of tying the game-

7th man Fred Jones (behind Jackson-Miller on bench)
8-9th man Croshere (maybe behind Johnson)
12th man rookie center David Harrison
James Jones (wouldn't make normal roster)
Eddie Gill (wouldn't make normal roster)
John Edwards (wouldn't make normal roster)

Seriously, does the Pacer depth need to be questioned any further? They were missing Artest, O'Neal, Jackson, Miller, Tinsley, Pollard, Foster, Bender, and Anthony Johnson. Truly the most insane lineup I've ever seen fielded in an NBA game.

Seth,
I know you're a Pacers fan and you feel the need to defend your guy, but come on, Artest's reputation is well earned and he has nobody to blame for it, but himself. To say that people should recognize change is fine and dandy, but most people, especically those that are not Pacer or NBA fans have little time nor the inclination to recognize change about Artest or any other Pacer player. In this type of incident, prior perceptions play a big role on how people view this incident and that's just the way it's going to be.

Actually, I find that quite sad because it speaks to the "out of sync" mentality of some people. This incident was horrible and everybody involved in it should be ashamed of themselves on how they behaved during it. I'm not going to blame anybody specifically because too many are guilty and it does little good to do so. I'm not a Pacer or Piston fan and to be honest, I don't particularly like to watch NBA basketball anymore, but something is terribly wrong in our society and this latest incident is just another symptom of what's wrong. We are really setting a good example for our young people by suggesting that a player or fan who acts like a thug is acceptable behavior and his actions should be supported. Don't we have enough divide among us without having to foster another divisive theme of "us against them" mentality? Whether you like it or not, every person that participated in making that incident worse than it should have been was wrong in their behavior and I personally can't defend their actions.

I missed the ugly incident on Friday night, but from what I've seen and read since, I have to agree with Robert. There is plenty of blame to go around -- fans, players, officials, etc. I'm thoroughly disgusted by this entire incident, and personally could care less how the fallout affects either Detroit or Indy's remaining season. Whatever happens to either team, the officials or the fans is deserved, and will probably be less than each should get. This does not help a league that is already fighting an image problem, and it also casts another dark shadow over the Detroit sports fan image.

I do not want to see sporting events in this country turn into South American soccer matches, with barbed wire separating players from fans. Incidents like this, though, make you wonder when it may come to that.

You answered the question yourself Seth--he was suspended twice.

And yes, he was ´better´ last year than this year. But still (and I am not looking this up) I´m pretty sure that two suspesions are more than the majority of NBA players.

All of the words and spin don´t change the fact that Artest and Jackson went into the stands, with the full knowledge that it was against the rules.

Other, similar incidents have resulted in suspensions.

BTW Seth, I don´t think I ever said that I should decide the prior penalty instead of the Pacers´ organization. I happen to think that their actions showed a preference for winning games over maintaining internal discipline--but that is their call, not mine or anyone elses.

I also don´t think that anyone has made the arguement that Artest is not allowed to show improvement. But the bottom line is that he has a rep--most of it well earned.

Interesting speculation about possible league actions against the Pacers and Pistons in this column by ESPN's Marc Stein. He draws a couple of international soccer analogies, one related to an old incident that I knew about, another one to more recent events that I hadn't heard of. Here's the part about the older incident, after a reference to the Rockets' Vernon Maxwell's 10-game suspension in 1995 for going after a fan in the stands:


Cantona, from France, was an enormous star at the time, definitely bigger in a relative sense than Artest is. Anyone who watched TV coverage of the 2002 World Cup will probably remember some Nike commercials featuring three-on-three soccer cage matches between the world's biggest stars, and with a French-sounding MC/referee/announcer: that was Cantona. I really liked one of them where current French star Thierry Henry scored, and Cantona serenaded him with his thick accent: "Oo eez ahn fie-ahr? Henry eez ahn fie-ahr!"

I also remember reading about an English soccer video game that had a player attacking a fan in the stands and saying, "Parlez-vous kung fu?" Tasteless, yes, but funny.

Marc Stein also talks about some recent soccer precedents that I hadn't heard about:


I'm not sure I would characterize those incidents as "the natural response" in soccer-centric countries, only since I've never heard about it happening before (just in the sense that Stein's use of "natural" seems almost synonymous with "normal" or "usual," which I don't think is quite accurate). It would be a very harsh step, to be sure, and I doubt the league is going to want to forgo that much revenue. But I guess there's a chance that they'll decide it would be better in the long run to do something that drastic to improve their image.

Seth these other guys are right. The question is not whether Ron Artest has made an attempt to improve his image or character, and it is not about whether or not we choose to accept his behavior.

The point is that Artest may have been trying to improve his image but that should not, could not, and will not be a valid excuse for his actions on Friday.

As for whether or not I understood you, I understood you completely...you can spin this in his favor all you want, but had it been anyone else, not in a Pacer uniform you wouldn't be seeing it the same way you are in the case of Ron Artest.

Suspensions are in:

Artest: See you next year
O'Neil: See you in 25 days
Jackson: See you in 30 days
Wallace: See you in 5 days.

All fair IMHO.

Next up: Lawsuits.

You mean games...


Heck of a lot longer than the equivilent in days.

And a slew of one game, slap on the wrist penalties

You know, this has changed the landscape in the Eastern Conference at least as it relates to playoff placement...and it may impact who makes the playoffs entirely.

Indiana benefits from being in the Eastern Conference. If they were a Western team this would have totally ruined their playoff hopes, but the weaker field over in the East means that they still have a pretty good chance to make the playoffs, and what if they make it as 8 and Detroit makes it as 1? That means your potential NBA Eastern Finals matchup is now a round 1 best of 7.

You know, Pacer fans might be able at the end of the year to say that things would've been different if they had O'Neil or Artest, or Jackson for all of those games, and IMO that will be as valid a complaint as fans of teams that lose key guys due to injury might have. Whether we want to admit it or not these suspentions are almost like these players got injured, the only difference is that the injuries were self-inflicted.

...and the players are not getting paid millions during their "injury", of course.

I guess that Artest will now have plenty of time to work on his new album now.

Lew, many people said the 2nd suspension was unwarranted because Ron quickly turned around in a behavior that acknowledged the rules and showed a willingness to comply by his own choice. So that's only 1, and it was for flagrant foul points, not for some specific altercation.

And even with that Ron spent last year also battling his flagrant foul rep, and not all of his hard fouls were considered flagrant by all involved, some were seen as generated by his rep.

So the point then becomes that once a guy has a rep, OTHER PEOPLE can then continue to generate that rep by skewing how they handle them in the future.
"hey, I asked for coke and you gave me sprite"
"oh, what you want to fight, SECURITY"
"no I just"
(security grabs him, he resists)
On the news "Artest goes nuts at movie theater over Sprite incident".

Those sort of things happen to people all the time, and it isn't fair.

Yes, the most identical incident was Maxwell going into the stands, actually punching a guy 12 rows up, not 4-5, not being restrained before he could, and for only a verbal assualt not a physical object being thrown.

That is 1995, that is DAVID STERN'S NBA - the result 10 GAMES and $200K. So I agree, suspend him. 8 games since this fan actually threw something. Otherwise Stern is being seriously inconsistant. Why did Mad Max only get 10 games and Artest got 73 when Maxwell was less provoked and was able to get off a real shot on the fan?

Wrong guy, okay, then 20 games, 30 games.

And as for "making a statement" about the choice, just how many players have gone into the stands since 1995? Until now, none. It's still an aberration. It sounds like just the 10 games made a point after all.


But it was someone else, it was Vernon Maxwell, and it was DAVID STERN who set the precedent for the resulting suspensions.

There is zero debating this. The two incidents from a "what did the player do" perspective are very similar, being a little worse with Maxwell actually. 10 games. End of story. If Stern were being fair and consistent with his own actions we would see a similar suspension here.

Don't give me your opinion, cite another example of a 73 game suspension in any major US sport for fan-player interaction. ESPN2 has a whole list of them, and in many cases the fans was actually in more trouble, including a time when Albert Belle threw a baseball at a heckler and the fans around him applauded because the guy was being such an asshole. Belle got a week and a fine.

The only punishment that even comes close to sniffing this one is Francisco's, and that was for THROWING A CHAIR at a fan for chrissake. Even the DET police have pointed out that only the chair thrower in DET can get a felony charge, not the punchers, so that right there shows the LEGAL difference between Ron's action and Francisco's.


Can someone cite any source in major US sports in which a player-fan fight involved more than 10 games off, outside of the chair throwing? Dodgers into the Wrigley stands, nope. Maxwell into the Portland stands, nope.


Even the Man. United soccer thing that did get the serious suspension involved a player kicking a fan in the chest with his 1 inch long aluminum spikes. He was sentenced to 2 weeks in jail. Artest will not be serving 2 weeks jail time and did not use a sharp piece of metal to attack a heckler.
Really Marc Stein? Kicking a guy with your spikes is the same as grabbing, even punching a person? Not in my book, but if you'd like to come over for a game of you swing at me, I kick you with my spikes then okay. We'll see how long that game goes.


Show me something similar that resulted in such a harsh penalty. Forget what Jackson did or the fans did after that, that's their business, their fines/suspensions/arrests and their choices. Ron should only be penalized for his choices. The history of players who have made his choice strongly suggests that he was severly overpenalized.


I don't believe any player has ever been suspended or maybe even fined for physically interacting with a fan who came onto the field/court.


You simply cannot hold Artest accountable for a fan that chose to throw a chair or come on the court or hit other Pacers in the back of the head. At best you can say he got things going, but if you do can't we just follow that logic backward and say that it was all only the cup-throwers fault, or farther back and say it was all Ben Wallace's fault?

I thought people said that the actions of others doesn't remove our own responsibility, at least that's the application to Artest. Fine. Apply it to the rest of the incident then too. Artest went after a guy, 10 games, 15 to set the higher tone. Fans on court, no penalty. That's the precedent that was set for those actions.

Then we turn to the next action. Fan punches player, Jackson punches fan, whatever, with each being punished only according to their OWN CHOICES, not the total result. In the end the entire incident should be acounted for.

But it is unfair and ridiculous to hold Artest accountable for how ugly FANS CHOSE TO GET, or his teammates. Artest going into the stands does NOT JUSTIFY Jackson punching a beer thrower or any of the other terrible things we see. It justifies that guy defending himself, and people pulling him out of there. That's it. Everything else is the resposibility of the people who made those other choices.

In other words, if we are all at an HTF meet and I get chippy with Scott and punch him, that doesn't make it okay for Lew to punch Casey and then Haggai to dump beer on both of them, etc. And just because they chose to act that way doesn't make it my responsibility. I am only responsible for my own actions. It is not reasonable to think that Ron going after a cup-tossing fan, even the wrong one, gives any other fan or player the right to fight. But it was those other choices that took this from a troubling incident into the realm of horrific.

What Maxwell did was the same thing, what DET fans did was not the same as what PORT fans did. What Maxwell's teammates did was not the same as what Jackson did, and eventually O'Neal to a lesser degree. That's why these things are different, and that's where the additional punishment should be levied.

In Portland fans weren't arrested, other players weren't suspended for fighting, no one had to look at video tape to identify fans getting out of control. THAT'S HOW THEY ARE DIFFERENT, period. There is no debating it. What Ron did was most physically similar to what Maxwell did. That's the end of the story for him.

Hell, if a brawl were to break out in Indy could we all say "well, it was all Ron's fault, up his fine and suspension. I know he wasn't in the building, but its still his fault and he should be punished." Does Ron get fined by the NCAA for the Clemson-SC riot spurred on by footage of FRI night? No, that's just silly.


For the record, Wallace only deserved 2 games for a hard hands to the face but not punch thing. That's what he did, that doesn't justify Artest going into the stands or fans behavior.

Anyway, I'm done in this thread with Artest talk, apart from his potential return to the team and his affect on the Pacers ability to win (with or without him). If you are sick of hearing my side of this issue, you will be safe in this thread. I know that makes many of you happy.


On to how this shapes the East. I have to say that I am even more impressed with Carlisle in all of this. At the press conference he was like bedrock, solid and even-keeled. He just isn't prone to emotional reactions (which is why I think he has had a good effect on both Artest and Tinsley, and hopefully will on Jackson once he gets more time with him).

Even FRI night when Larry Brown was running pretty emotional, Rick seemed to take it all in stride despite being on the fan-hatred side of it.

And that encourages me, how he and Bird responded at the press conference. AJ will be coming back soon, as will Miller, in a few more weeks I think Foster returns. Tinsley is getting better (not sure if that hand injury was FRI night or what) and hopefully Pollard will be able to at least go 50% of the time.

In the meantime Fred Jones looks as good as he has, and as good as I said he was last year. Stats just don't show this stuff, you have to see a guy's speed, physicality, skills, esp. in person to get it fully I think.

Jones on SAT night ended up being the PG in the 4th because Eddie Gill was just overmatched. That caused problems because Jones was also being asked to be the go-to scorer and had to dribble and PnR against endless double teams. Gill was horrible at it.

Croshere had a down game, so hopefully he will be better offensively. Honestly, he just looked tired by the 4th. All these guys were seeing a lot more minutes than normal.

David Harrison looks to be a pretty solid draft pick after all. His skill set inside is actually strong for a rookie. His main issue is just not seeing the game at the NBA speed. He got burned on fakes, he fails to set good picks or play the PnR good on defense.

However, he can get his points inside, blocks shots pretty well, and can rebound fairly well. His heavy playing time should really help him I think since his needs are mostly on-court learning things.

James Jones has a nice bench-guy type game, good with reboudning, occassional nice outside touch, he can help your team as the 8th guy. But as a starter, he's still a weak point.

John Edwards - should not be on an NBA roster, period.


So if the Pacers can go with -
Tinsley
F Jones
J Jones
Croshere
Pollard

Harrison, Gill for a few weeks they could still get out of it with a 2-8, 3-7 run. Then you put Miller and AJ in the mix and get Fred Jones at the SF spot to replace Artest and you are starting to look okay. Add Foster to the mix and you really aren't that far off full strength and can probably expect a 5-5, 6-4 run.

That's enough to keep them in the playoff hunt for another 15 games until JO returns, fully rested I might add, and then Jackson a few games later. Heck, by then even Bender will be back.

So if you ask me about a team that has a fully rested O'Neal and Jackson, and a healthy Miller, AJ and Foster, I still consider them the favorites.

Fred Jones is a similar player to Artest, fast and physical as a defender, able to hit the 3 (better actually), and able to create some additional offense.

I'm sure Scott and Brandon don't agree, but then the Pacers just handily beat the Pistons without Miller, Foster, Bender, Pollard or AJ (anthony johnson). I'll trade them for Artest and feel pretty good about it.

The rest of the NBA:

Detroit does seem to be starting slow, and losing Wallace for a few games doesn't help. But then last year they started "slow" too. Brown has been unable to be as much a part of things. Its a long season. If Indy can overcome their setback (which I think they can), then DET can get back to 60 win form as well.


Grant Hill - I have to say that even though he scored some points on Indy, I wasn't that impressed. He didn't look like old Grant Hill, he looked like a solid team guy that can give you 10-12 a night and 5 rebounds. Hey, that's still great for the Magic, but Hill is not "back" in the fullest sense. Most of his night was spent burning James Jones SAT night, which is just not that impressive.

Francis - WTF is going on with his game though? He damn near cost ORL the game. He was just awful. Magic were lucky to have Hedo Turk and Hill to turn to.


I don't know that any Atlantic team is very good right now. DET, CLE, MIA, ORL are playoff teams. Other than that there isn't a lot to make Indy fans sweat to be honest. Hey, at least CLE and ORL look improved.


Meanwhile, I know Casey and other Lakers fans think everything is just fine, but as I said before the season, LA has some real concerns when it comes to making the playoffs out West.

SEA really looks to have things dialed with with Lewis and Allen, that not just a fluke anymore. They can win 50. Minny we know. SA we know, Dallas we know. SAC we know.

So you have
MIN
SA
SAC
DAL
SEA

Add to that a PHX team that can explain the improvement with Nash who is the real deal, the piece that helps Marion and Stoud. play better. Funny how the super high scoring offense followed Nash right over to PHX, isn't it.

And then UTH has every reason to be considered at least as strong as last year, you can point to talent on their roster.

Now you have 1 other spot, and you have to think that both Memphis and Denver are young enough and have kept the roster together enough to be as good as last year too.

LA makes the 10th team in the hunt, and there is very little there to suggest to me that they are really in better shape than Denver. Heck, I didn't even though in Houston because I'm not sold on McGrady really making a great team player. He scores a lot and has talent, but he's yet to really show the abilty to raise a team up. I definitely don't think Yao is ready to do that.



Now can you send a couple of these teams over to the East so we can at least put 6-7 good teams into the playoffs instead of 3-4?

Come on, Seth, that would never happen. I don't like beer. Well, maybe if Ron Epstein slipped me a beer in that situation, I might have to think about it...

I've been really impressed with McGrady's team play so far. I never got to see him much in Orlando but in the games he's played so far, he's been doing things the Rockets always wanted out of Francis but never got because the guy was such a bad passer and decisionmaker. I'm worried about him being fragile physically, but that's always been a concern with him.

OTOH, I don't like Van Gundy's approach to the team. It's painful to watch the Rockets play because even when they win it's like they're yanking teeth out there. He's got them playing like the Cavs used to under Fratello and while that team had to play that way because they generally lacked talent, the Rockets, even with the holes in their roster, shouldn't be playing like that.

Seth believe me, when I think of all the words I can use to describe the Lakers right now, fine is not high on the list.

Just because I think they'll still make the playoffs, still not sold on the Kings myself, does not mean that right now I am happy with the way things are going, especially right now.

I hated the Shaq trade, and still do. If the Lakers are stinking up the joint then that's what they deserve.

Fine, is not my outlook. I think that they can and will improve, but I'm not planning to do a happy Laker dance anytime soon.

I guess I have one final Artest question for Seth and the others, but it doesn't relate so much to that other thread at all so much as it is NBA analysis.

Will Artest even be back with Indiana next season, or might they just trade him? If they trade him, what do you think they will get in return?

As I said, Indiana is helped by being in the East, I think how many wins they get during this run will depend in large part on who they play. Will they miss their big 3 on a brutal Western swing? Do they play Atlanta, Washington, and Charlotte 18 times in the next thirty games, I have a copy of the NBA schedule but I haven't gotten around to looking at what the next 25-30 games are like for the Pacers.

Is anyone surprised at how bad New Orleans is, or how slowly Memphis started?

If I were the GM, I’d keep him, if I were convinced that his presence would not damage the rest of the team. I don’t think that any trade would get equal value, and I’d have to believe that this latest incident would cause him to get needed help.

Well, if 'just fine' means that we think the Lakers are going to win the championship, then things are not fine. But that being said, I like the direction the team is headed. The Lakers play hard every night, show some surprising athleticism and the occasional ability to lock teams down on defense. The brand of ball they're playing is infinitely more attractive than the crapola of last year. Not a bad rebuilding job by Kupchak and company, though honestly we're a couple of years away from contending again. Still, we're much farther ahead of the game than the Bulls, Celtics and Pistons are/were when their dynasties imploded.

I meant "just fine" in terms of "still make the playoffs". Heck, I saw some preseason rankings that had them as 3-4 in the West!!!

Anyway, just how bad is this going to be for Kobe? I mean Shaq has Wade, and that's it. Kobe has more than Wade around him. East is weak, fine, but we will also be able to compare records vs the same conference and opponents.

And if Shaq has the better of him in that regard, will head to head wins for LA make up for it?


Well, they didn't alienate all their players, just one, and they did get some talent in return. Plus they hired a real coach, not Tim Floyd. Plus, no players DIED like they did for Boston, who lost 2 stars (Bias and Lewis).

The thing is that this was a 3 time winner that had 2 stars still in good shape. This is still running Jordan out of town while he is still healthy. There is no good reason why the team had to be rebuilt at this point. There are reasons, mind you, they just aren't good ones.

To me losing Phil was the worst of it. Rudy is great, but Phil is one of the best.



Artest with Indy - without a doubt. There is a reason I defended his actions, because they aren't that far out of line. Not even as far as Maxwell was. Maybe plenty of people disagree, but in Indy there is strong support. We all think he deserves punishment, but that the penalty was very excessive.

I think Bird and Carlisle feel that way as well, and both are extremely calm and cool about things. Just consider their previous reps in the matter - Carlisle was too "cold and distant" for Pistons players, and Bird became famous during his reign as coach for not reaction in either direction about anything, always staying in check.

So these aren't guys that just burn it down and start over. I think you see great improvement under Carlisle for Artest and his behavior. Even with this setback there are tons of positive signs, such as how he reacted to Wallace.

And of course his actual game is outstanding. They could never get that game in return with a trade, so why not just continue to improve on Ron as they have been.

He has already had 20+ anger management sesssions. It is not like he has ignored the issue of his temper previously. He was doing much better FRI night, but a guy with a temper problem can only be expected to hold on so long.

Just like you wouldn't pound shots in front of a recovering alcoholic all night. It's a long road for Ron to total control, and FRI night was the kind of situation he just didn't need to be in yet, it was way more than he was ready to handle I think. But I do think he is on his way and can get there. The restaint he showed for most of FRI night would have been unimaginable for him just 2 seasons ago.

I'd be more worried about the irritation factor, his goofiness might just be grating. Pitching your CD for example. It's hard to read the player's reaction to that.


I know its too early to say, BUT Carlisle has just become a strong candidate for coach of the year. He still needs results, but if he gets the Pacers to the 40's in wins with a team this injured and this destroyed by suspensions I think he will get lots of voter love for "degree of difficulty".

BTW - James Jones just got the better of Paul Pierce. His game really is pretty impressive for a guy that wouldn't have even been on the roster. I think what you see out of him makes Croshere the guy on the outside looking in when his contract runs out.


The Pacers have about about 10 games (2 into it already) before they will have AJ, Foster, and Miller back. They do have some easy streaks after that but plenty of West teams too. I think 10-10 over the next 20 is very realistic. By XMas they might still be solidly in the battle for a top position, not just hanging in there.

By that point you are only 10 (maybe less) games from having everyone but Artest. It will actually be the closest to a full roster they've had all year. Ron is a big deal, but they have shown that their depth is more than enough to cover his loss.


And as I tried to point out before, the city and the team do have a very strong "us vs them" mentality right now. It's a moot point to say "Ron started it" or "they brought it on themselves". It doesn't matter. The view right now is that they were put upon by a ton of ugly fans in DET, that Indy fans have been hurt by the actions of the fans of their main rival, that they must now face near-impossible odds, and that everyone must come together in unity.

That is the reality on a daily basis down here. Its on the news at night, its in the streets, on sports radio, and definitely has been in Conseco the last 2 games where the crowd is treating early season games like its the most important thing in the world. I heard it in person SAT and heard it over the broadcast last night (plus we babysat for friends who did go and said how great the crowd was).

You have just seen the fan base go from 2004 complacent with winning to 1994 we finally are great and no one respects us. You see a guy like Reggie cheering louder than anyone, really fired up and inspired. All the guys are. There is a sense of team that is almost unseen by even the best organizations. These guys are pulling for each other like it's their kid or kid brother.

IMO, that sort of intangible counts for quite a lot. A vet brings his all because he is inspired by James Jones. A guy slightly hurt puts it aside because he feels the need from his teammates. You just can't buy such an effect.

In an odd way (and one I still wish could be undone), the whole thing might actually help the Pacers. They were the best road team in the NBA last year, and they lost with home court over DET, so I think not winning HC is not a critical problem for them. They merely need to get in, which still appears certain.

Focus and comittment has become as much a non-issue as it ever was for any player.


All the more reason to dump it on someone. Of course I left out the part where Ron-P goes totoally mental at seeing a premium lager wasted like that and beats the holy hell out of you.



Andy, I haven't really been able to see them play much (HOU), so I can't comment on how it is really working. I can believe your points in all cases though. As I said, Francis was a total meltdown in Indy the other night, so TMac has to be better than that. I've seen him (Francis) play much better, but I wonder if he isn't another one of those stars who just suddenly fades into average after a few seasons (think Kenny Anderson).



I know I've written tons about the Artest thing, but its going to die down. Unlike many people I've heard from after FRI night, I still happen to like the NBA and the product. In fact I think we've seen some pretty solid play this year. Scoring in general seems to be up though I haven't compared stats yet.

I'm hoping to catch a lot more of other teams in the next month or so. I think there is plenty of other things for us to discuss about the NBA.

I agree with Seth, Artest's punishment was too severe. Who among us would not have been looking to open up a can of whoopass on somebody if it had happened to us? Clearly, his prior transgressions and reputation played a huge role in Stern's punishment. What happened on Friday night was a garden-variety court confrontation that turned into a fiasco because of some drunk dumbass fans, plain and simple.

Anyway, on to the league. I'd unequivocally state that the Lakers will make the playoffs were it not for the surprisingly spectacular play of Seattle and Phoenix. Whether or not these teams can remain consistent throughout the year will largely determine whether the Lakers are playoff or lottery-bound.

Miami is pretty much what I figured they'd be. Beating up on the dregs of the East to the tune of 50+ wins, and getting beaten consistently against the West. They'll go out in the Conference Finals.

If Indy can stay afloat until until JO and Jackson return, I think they can still come out of the East even without Artest.