NBA Basketball 2004-2005 thread

Everybody got screwed by the refs last night. Phantom calls, touch fouls, ticky-tack to the extreme. This was most over-officiated game I've seen since game 1 of the 2003 WCF between SA and Dallas. There were plenty of screw-ups on both sides for the refs, I don't think either team got an advantage, even though there were obvious errors all over the place.

So the Pistons get it done, leaving it until the 4th to pull away. I was surprised that nobody on the TNT broadcast appeared to mention one of the main reasons the Pistons had been behind for much of the game: until Rip started channelling Jerry West in the 4th quarter, I think he was only 5 of 16 from the floor. He was getting good shots, too, and just not hitting them. Thankfully, he went nuts in the 4th. Great rebounding and low turnover numbers were big keys as well. Kind of surprised that Arroyo got a DNP--first time that happened in the series, wasn't it? Dice is certainly the key guy off the bench, but they're gonna need some production from Arroyo as well.

Didn't see much of Seattle-Sacramento, which is too bad, that sure sounds like it was an exciting game. I'm pretty pumped for Seattle-San Antonio, the Sonics look like they're back on track after having limped into the playoffs.

Indiana/Boston continues to baffle. I guess the Pacers will be favored to finish it off at home, especially with the boost they just got from Tinsley's return, but this wacko series would somehow feel incomplete if it didn't go seven.

John Thompson was too busy figuring out how to get on the court to hump Iverson's leg to notice or comment on anything else. AI played great, but Thompson had the biggest case of "man-love" I've seen out of an announcer this side of John Madden for Brett Favre.

Comcast just added TNT-HD to our lineup, so last night was my first experience watching that station's coverage. Besides the announcers, I was also annoyed by the station promos that were run during actual game play via a split screen. I wish ESPN-HD had the Eastern Conference Finals.

Heh, that's a good point, but actually Thompson was also pretty up front coming into the 2nd half about how the pace was favoring Detroit, and that the Sixers had basically no chance to win if the game continued in that way. I can forgive Thompson a bit on the man-love front because of his unique relationship with AI.

Speaking of announcers, I gotta give it up for my man Rex, a fellow Kentuckian (highlight of sixth grade = him visiting our school and talking to our class). I think he does a nice job whenever he calls a game. During the insane Detroit-New Jersey Game 5 last year, just after Chauncey hit the half-court buzzer beater with the Pistons down 3, I remember Rex saying that the Nets had given him too good a look, even though he was so far away. I bet he was thinking, "yeah, I would have hit that one too."

A different perspective on the Van GUndy situation:

Had the directive come down to watch for moving screens(and had this been told to JVG), I dont think Jeff would have been as irate. What he was told, was that they were watching Yao Ming for moving screens... (see the difference)

About 4 months ago on Jeff Van GUndy's radio show he mentioned that Yao is by far the worst officiated player in the league. They call ticky-tack fouls on him, but it seems in order for him to be fouled(which is where the majority of the yao is treated wrong comes from) it has to draw blood. He has sent in tapes to the league(similar to what Cuban has done) but has had no luck on getting anything changed. Apparently the rapid turn around for Cuban to see results is another thing that ticked him off.

I also thought it was very funny that on a night when NBA Officiating was brought to the forefront, there were no less than 4 absolute horrible calls/no-calls in the western play-off games during crunch time.

That is so funny. My brother-in-law and I were sitting there saying the same thing. Of course we were also raving about Iverson and talking about how we used to hate him, but now feel sorry for him. Webber was a complete no show, and you could tell AI felt like he had to do it all himself, and damn near did.

Last night was also my first experience with TNT HD, and quite frankly I don't think the picture looked near as good as ESPN HD, and the sound was severely lacking compared to ESPN. Now I just have to get the antenna up so I can get local HD channels for the finals.

Actually no one knows that Van Gundy was told anything. All he has done is say that someone told him--but then refused (against NBA rules) to cooperate and name names. A part of the reason for the size of the fine.

But I have no doubt that Cuban did send a set of films to the NBA--this happens all the time. And I have no doubt that they were reviewed and even that Yao was identified as setting moving picks and screens. And that officials were told they had missed calls.

This happens all the time.

What I see is Van Gundy trying to get some calls in future games. Nothing wrong with that, so long as you have the money.

Some might suggest that Van Gundy would be better served to try to get Yao to stop trying to take charges like a guard and go up and block the shot. He was called for being in the restriced zone a few times in the first two games. He also at times does not seems to be able to set as quickly as a smaller man and is therefore more likely to be called for a block than the other guy for a charge.

I'd also suggest that Van Gundy has forgotten times like the first quarter of game 2, where the Mavs had at least three guys in serious foul trouble, trying to guard Yao.

And finally, in the last game, had Yao made his free throws, the Rockets would have won the game. It was not that he did not get calls--only that he could not make the free throws when it counted (and I know that everyone misses some times--Dallas did not shoot theirs very well either).

Although i think the picture was better on ESPN HD, the commentators absolutely sucked

Ill watch TNT regardless of picture quality. About half way through ESPN HD, we turned down the volume and turned on the radio

It's because of his size. He's literally a bigger target than anyone on the floor so when he does something that the vast majority of players get away with most of the time, it's much easier for the officials to see and they blow the whistle. People who don't watch him play very much just say "play aggressive" but he's tried that many times and it generally just gets him planted on the bench even sooner.

The moving screens thing is just sort of funny because for all that Cuban complains about it, it hasn't been called much and never will be (I think Mutombo got whistled for it but I don't remember Yao getting called this series). Like carrying the dribble, it's one of those things that every team does but never gets whistled for, except once in a blue moon. The real reason Cuban complains about Yao is that Yao has such a wide butt that, moving or not, it's simply harder to run around him than most other players


I can see the reason for the massive fine. What I don't get is Stern freaking out and threatening to ban Van Gundy for life. To even hint at it is excessive and makes the NBA look much more ogreish than I'm sure Stern would like.

I thought it was interesting that some Chinese fans reported that Yao had written on his blog following game 3 that one of the refs approached him before the game and told him they were going to nail him with a foul if he "did anything". At the time I just wrote it off as weird Chinese media stuff but in retrospect I wonder if maybe that's what actually set off Van Gundy, and not this mysterious informant that probably doesn't exist.


Well, I don't think anyone is suggesting that the refs are literally costing the Rockets games. They definitely need to play better above all else. But the major free throw discrepancy between the two teams and stuff like the last few calls in the last game just feel like salt in the wounds

Yes, but those guys getting into foul trouble were legitimate fouls on Yao, not ticky-tack moving screens, itty-bitty hand checks, or generally bad-call fouls. They wre getting into foul trouble because they couldnt hang with Yao.

The complaint isn't about Yao's defensive fouls(though the blocking fouls when he is still with hands straight up suck). The complaints for Yao fans are the ticky-tack offensive fouls(he did have a legit moving pick called EARLY in game 5) and the -aside from game 2 and 4th quarter of game 5- no-calls when Yao goes up and gets hammered.

Sweet! Spurs move on

Here's a tip on the Pacers for those confused.

1) in game 4 it was close, but JO got a 3rd foul in the 2nd which hurt and then got foul 4 in the 3rd when the game was within reach. Then it wasn't. It got worse when Indy then fell into their worst habit, going to the 3 to catch up quickly, missing a bunch and watching the other team run back on them. Final score looks terrible, but that game was well within reach until that last burst that blew it open. And if they hit a couple of those 3s in that run it still would have been a close one.

2) Tinsley just returned. He's all-star caliber, probably the best PG in the NBA that you haven't heard about. Seriously. His handles are sick, he's a dynamic passer, and he gets his hands on the ball in every other defensive set (5 steals last night, created a couple of others for other guys).

All Pacer fans know that with JT in the game is totally different. Judging the Pacers without Tinsley is like judging the Suns without Nash, Spurs without Parker, Pistons without Billups. Yes, he makes that much of a difference.

Just the fact that he gets the ball over mid-court with 19 seconds to go instead of bordering on shot clock violations like Johnson has (or getting the ball stolen in your own lane for the layup like Gill did in game 1) is a huge improvement.

First 3 shots were layups with JT in, the minute he went out the ball wouldn't go inside the arc the entire set.

As long as #11 plays 25+ good minutes the Pacers are a better team than Boston.

BTW, I will be sitting a couple seats to the right (as you look at it) over and a row behind the famous Pacers "sign man" fan, the curly red haired guy who wears the yellow hard hat, sitting front row baseline. They are certain to show him holding up a sign at some point. Blond haired kid nearby, that's your boy.

The Pacers are like the Nets, no one but Nets or Pacer fans really care about the team and there are few enough of those.

Even worse off are Chicago and Washington, you can barely get anyone to remember that they are even playing.

I'm back in Mexico now and am not getting the Dallas slant on things, but I'd suggest that Van Gundy is in serious trouble.

He is in essence refusing to cooperate with an NBA investigation. All of the humorous comparisons to Watergate does not change the fact that Stern wants to ferret out a referee who is leaking information to a team. Van Gundy knows the NBA rule about this and has so far refused to cooperate with the league investigation.

As I see it there are a couple of choices he will have to make: 1)throw his source (the ref) under the bus and name him, or 2)claim that he made up the whole story and had no source--that is, that he was just trying to influence the refs on future calls.

Either way, he is in trouble with the NBA and Stern (just two different kinds of trouble). While I have no idea what the penalty would be, I assume that it would not be just a slap on the wrist.

OTOH, it may be that Stern is holding out the threat of future punishment as a stick to get Van Gundy to cooperate and the carrot in this case would be a reduced penalty should he do so.

Of course Van Gundy has a third option: that of continuing to remain silent. I expect that if he does, further penalities will result.

If Van Gundy thinks his team's getting the short end of the stick from referees now, it will be much worse if he gives up the "mystery ref" to Stern. He's screwed no matter what he does.

Actually I have to admit that had not occured to me--but a very real problem indeed.

I think his best option is to fall on his sword and claim that he made up his source. That way Stern will probably only assess further fines (and perhaps a suspension of some sort).

And all of this for a call (moving pick) that is rarely made (and only once or twice in this series, IIRC).

After a little thought, it appears that Van Gundy hit the panic button. Strange, as the media was all over Avery Johnson after the first two Maverick losses, saying that he had been outcoached by Van Gundy and that what could you expect from a rookie coach in his first playoffs.

The playoffs cause everyone to go from goat to hero to goat on a day to day basis.

This could also get him fired too.
Very much like the Colts in the NFL barring a few bandwagon Manning fans.

Rock meet hard place.

Oh my, Pacers/Celtics finished in absolutely insane fashion. What a messed up game. After the nutty finish to regulation, the Celtics get maybe one good possession in OT, and they don't even score on it (the one where Gary missed an open three from the top of the key)...and, of course, they win anyway. Can Game 7 get any weirder? One thing I feel pretty confident of now is that the Pistons won't have much trouble either way. I was more concerned about the Pacers potentially being a tough out, and I guess they still might be if they advance, but their inconsistency is killing them.

Van Gundy has a reputation as being honest, sometimes brutally so. He did not make this up, and I just don't see him doing the backpedaling thing. Will it cost him his career? I doubt it. After Stern cools off I'm sure he'll realize it would be a PR nightmare if he followed through on his threat. From what I've read, the national sports media seem to be on Van Gundy's side, and have called the NBA on the fact that the refs don't really have a handle on how to officiate quality big men (Shaq is mentioned as much as Yao).

From a Houston perspective, what this has done is put the fans firmly in Van Gundy's corner for the first time since he got here two years ago. It's been tough for JVG replacing the beloved Rudy T, but he now has overwhelming support, including offers from prominent citizens to pay all or part of the fine (which he, of course, turned down).

The team responded tonight, spanking the Mavs by 18 points to send the series to Game 7. Just like the Rockets did last week, Dallas blew their momentum. It'll likely be another close one, but I think on Saturday the Rockets steal the game and the series from the Mavs.

See Paul Pierce for the latest example. His Celtic teammates bailed him out by winning in OT, preventing him from going down as one of the biggest goats in Celtics history. Boston had that game won in regulation without that technical foul. Between that, the terrible defensive rebounding, and Antoine Walker's erratic play, I do not see how Boston could give Detroit much of a series. They are struggling against an Indy team that is no where near 100% -- O'Neal, Tinsley and Miller are all playing hurt, and Artest is still suspended.

Seth, I'm curious on your opinion of the technical foul call against Pierce. I thought it was a good call. However, it was very similar to the call on Artest against Rip Hamilton in Game 6 last year. Both Tinsley and Hamilton did quick flops to embellish the fouls and call attention to the refs.

It looked like a flop but then again I'm only seeing replays on ESPN here.

Seth had a better angle though but biased to a degree which I think he can admit.

Tonight we get the Bulls/Wizards which I expect the Wizards to win. Arenas is just insane. The Bulls should be back next year though. They are very youthful and kinda scary..

Unless Pierce gets suspended I suspect the Celtics will move on. Then again both are fodder for the Pistons.

Houston/Dallas is a tossup. Both are cannon fodder for round 2.

I certainly thought the tech on Pierce was the right call, although Tinsley did help to sell it. The whole "refs shouldn't decide the game" bit from Barkley afterwards, in disagreeing with the call, leads to the obvious question of whether guys should be allowed to throw elbows in the last minute of a close game just because it's close. I don't think Pierce should be suspended, and I don't think it should have gotten him ejected on its own if that had been a question, but he already had a tech earlier, so out he went. If swinging the elbow high like that isn't a tech, then I don't know what is.

By the way, regarding my previous post, I remembered later that the C's had a good possession to start the OT, with Davis penetrating and finding Jefferson open underneath. But then almost every other possession after that resulted in nothing more than chucking and praying. And, of course, they still won!

It was both a technical and a flop. Pierce was an idiot to do it but Tinsley did a great acting job


I don't know about Dallas, but Phoenix does not want to play the Rockets. The Rockets gave them all kinds of fits this year, beating them twice in Phoenix, and Amare has yet to figure out how to score on Yao. The Rockets' toughest matchups for the playoffs by a good margin were the Spurs and Dallas, so if they do manage to get past Dallas they'd have to feel pretty damn good about themselves.

deleted--double post

I expect both second round series in the West to be nice and competitive, no matter who wins Game 7 in Dallas, although I still expect Phoenix and San Antonio to make the conference finals. Round 2 in the East, well, it was pretty clear that Miami wasn't going to have much trouble in this round from the beginning of the playoffs, and with the way the Pacers look, I don't think Brandon, Scott, or myself will be sweating too much either, against Indy or Boston.

Seems like it is "Bring the Thunder" which he does do often but if he doesn't against Yao, that is odd.

Pierce tech from the other day, its simple. It was a dead ball foul on PP, that's a tech, period. It's not how hard it was or wasn't, and Tinsley's flop didn't get him booted. When the whistle blows you can't let crap like that bleed into the game.

This is why I think Ron's foul was not a tech. It was during a game. If PP just does that during the game, especially late, its a foul. But you can't foul during the dead ball, especially if it looks extracurricular.

Plus IMO Rip ran into Ron, Ron doesn't extend his arm. I was just watching it the other day. He is raising his arms and his forearm is at Rip's face, but Rip is driving into him with the ball. Ron might have not minded getting a chance to make it more physical after getting smacked in the balls like that, but it was far from any of the stuff we saw guys doing in the BOS/IND series on either side - very chippy.

For the record, go to ESPN and look at the tech foul stats for the season. Gee, 3 Celtics in the top 11 with Ricky Davis not far behind. Sort of explains things a bit more.


Ended up not costing them, and I didn't get to use my " 'toine fishin' " sign.

I mean they still ended up winning the series, couldn't they have let me get some TNT face time at least?


Tinsley was feeling the effects from his first game back, just like after that first day at the gym where you feel great and then 2 days later you're too sore to move.

But the big difference in game 7 besides Jack being dialed in was having Foster and Fred Jones looking healthy for the first time in months. I noticed in game 6 they were both looking a lot better and it was even more obvious in game 7.



What's with the anti-Indy talk? That's not very friendly. National coverage seemed pretty interested in it and Peyton Manning and the Colts are a pretty popular team thanks to that offense. I mean Marino and the Phins had national fans without winning a Super Bowl.

I know as a guy in tune to people discussing both those teams I hear an awful lot about them from people in other cities when I've traveled.

I like the Pacers Teams I don't care anything about include the Atlanta Hawks and New Jersey.

Tough end for the Rockets' season last night. It's unfortunate that they got so humiliated in game 7 because it overshadows what a good series they played for the most part, especially being without any power forwards and Bob Sura needing surgery. It'll be very interesting to see what players they can grab in the offseason to reload. Now that they're out, I look forward to the Spurs killing everyone that's left

Definitely a surprising end for the Rockets, nobody could have thought they'd lose by 40. The Celtics' utter collapse was maybe more predictable. As Charles pointed out at halftime on TNT, the Pacers were getting some decent looks in the first half and just missing them, as opposed to the inept and dysfunctional Celtics offense. The margin of victory might have been even greater if Indy had made more open shots early on.

"'Toine fishin'" is a good one, too bad you didn't get some air time! The gone fishin' image for the Nuggets last week was pretty funny, with Kenny, Carmelo, and Boykins being joined by John Elway, plus one of the TNT behind-the-scenes studio guys who's known as "Carmo" because of his last name (Carmody, I think is what it was), complete with photoshopped-cornrows... and he's a white guy.