NBA Basketball 2004-2005 thread

Casey, as I pointed out last year (and was generally laughed off for) the Pacers have probably the deepest bench in the league. Fred Jones does play a game similar to Artest's and can easily suck up the minutes. He is not as strong, but he is a bit quicker and more athletic. His defense, like Ron's, is based in footwork and position.

The Pacers lose something, but not much. In my mind they remain a 60 game winner when at full strength, minus Ron. Especially in light of how well rounded James Jones' game is and with the surprising talent of David Harrison (think Dampier in his first year).

Add to this that these guys are getting great playing time experience up front to complement their natural talent (like Jones facing and best Paul Pierce).

And then add to that giving JO and Jackson more than a month off of rest, but with practice.

Also, Artest remains part of the team in practice which means that the Pacers have an ace in the hole that many teams don't have - an All-Star calliber defender to hone their skills against. What can another team bring that Fred Jones or S Jackson won't have seen in practice?

I still expect some floundering early on as this roster faces the road (though they were within 1 of Seattle late when Harrison fouled out and Pollard out due to injury) and some fatigue. Plus, I don't expect the introduction of the recovered vets (Reggie, Foster, AJ) to be seemless.

However, the reality is that the Pacers are about to be as on-paper talented as they were before the suspension, and moreso in another month.

This current run is definitely a feel-good situation, but by FEB this will be THE Pacers, not some team just hanging on. To think otherwise is to ignore the depth that has been proven now with results.

I consider TINSLEY more valuable to the Pacers than ARTEST, and I think that was a big part of the East Finals last year. J Jones replacing Artest is better than Gill replacing Tinsley.



Don't get me wrong - Miami and Detroit are also, at full strength, very formidible teams and IMO just as capable of winning it all. However, MIA does have depth issues while DET, well I just can't figure it yet.


When I said bizarro whet I was getting at more than early results is that so much of these early results must now be tempered by the fact that circumstances just aren't normal. Larry Brown's injury seems to be affecting DET, INDY has serious issues, Wallace out for suspension, Brown's sudden retirement. Utah now gets a big injury for a month.

To me it makes these first few months a little invaluable in truly evaluating the situation. We are really still waiting for the real NBA season to show up now, once things return to normal.

All that we get right now is some jockying for early advantages in the final seeding. Plus, I've always felt that it wasn't until after XMas that you could read the real trends in the league, like the Pacers big post-AS collapse under Isiah or Miami's turnaround last year.


CLE looks nice, but James continues to struggle somewhat on the road. For the playoffs he'll need to resolve that obviously.

BOS might still get it together under Doc. As I said before, Ricky Davis is playing much more disciplined (more than I would have imagined he could).

Oh, one other thing. Before anyone points to the Hornets to prove what happens to East teams in the West, take note that they are also 0-3 vs the East and then look at their roster.

Magloire - out
Baron Davis - out
Mashburn - out (for year)

Granted this list is laughably short in comparison to Indy's, but no one has said the Hornets were deep. To win they HAVE to have at least Baron Davis and Magloire healthy IMO. Losing Mashburn was a real blow to their offense.

This is no doubt a very bad idea, but can you expand on this Seth?

Artest must really be contrite to be practicing all year with no pay. Does he make road trips, and if so does he have to pay his own expenses or can the club pick them up even though he is suspended.

I thought that there were some limitations on who could be a part of practices, but obviously not.

BTW, it the Pacers win it all, as you mentioned in a prior post, would this be the NBA equivalent of teams improving after A-Rod moves on?

*sigh* Fifth straight home loss by the Rockets. They're the worst offensive team in the league and their defense is irrelevent because they can't get any rebounds. Players look like they're quitting on Van Gundy. Is it jumping the gun to start rooting for someone else this season? Maybe I'll be a Lakers fan. I like their coach

So Chicago managed to double its win total for the season by defeating the Lakers by 8 points.

If this is supposed to make me forget about the fact that the Lakers traded away the most dominant player in the whole entire league for a bunch of spare parts just to passify some more easily replaced player's ego

it hasn't.

I like Rudy T, and am sorry he has to oversee this joke.

Have I thanked Kupchak for this ass backwards trade lately?

I haven't?

Good!

Like asking Tom Arnold to talk about something.

No. At least not for NBA suspended players. They must be out of the arena 2 hours before game time. Obviously if the Pacers suspended them it might be different.

At this point I think all 3 players have not yet been involved in practices because they were given time off by the team to get away from things, cool off, and clear their heads. But all 3 are expected to remain part of the team in terms of practices. Certainly Artest was expected to participate the rest of the year.

By the time Indy returns from this 4 game West trip I would expect them to rejoin the team as much as possible. It has been unclear how road trips will be handled, though due to their inability to stay in the arena they probably will not travel with the team.

JO and Jackson already participated in a team function for Thanksgiving created by...I forget...but carried on by Croshere when the other player left. Its a homeless dinner held at Conseco. They were there dishing out food and such.


edit - what do you know, someone already asked Pacers beat writer Mark Montieth in his Q&A column. Part of his response...

Not if they do it again the next year when Artest rejoins them.

For the record, while I have brought up the ARod thing, I've been hearing it applied even to Nomar. I can agree that his leaving improved the team in chemsitry, defense, whatever, but the idea that a team that was just barely eliminated suddenly "got good" because they just barely won the next year and went on to win it all is absolute horseshit.

Same with Indy if this were to happen. They won 61 games and were extremely competitive with Detroit. You might get that little extra piece, but you also might just have better fortune the next season. Once you are at the top, all other outcomes are in the hands of the sports gods.

Winning w/out Artest to me would mean a lot more about your first trip to the East finals vs your 2nd trip than it would about Artest being on the court or not. They are better with him, and every player has said so in interviews.


I know you were kidding, but sadly your joke would become a real sports story if/when the Pacers win it all this year. This is my pre-emptive strike on that story.

Okay, so now Pollard, Tinsley and Croshere sit with minor injuries and the team SUITS UP 2 guys that would have been on the normal opening day roster.

Think about that. Take any NBA team, then remove everyone but their #7-8 guy and their #12 guy, a rookie no less. Play ball. This was the thinnest the roster has been since Croshere played the first night against Orlando.

I suspect that Carlisle might be conceding these 4 road games in an effort to circle the wagons, rest and heal, and then regroup again at home.


CHICAGO? Come on Lakers. Shaq continues to laugh his ass off.


Teams who's seasons are now done - NJ, CHI, ATL, CHA, NO, MEM...and lookout Houston.

I can't believe how far Jeff Van Gundy has fallen. But then again just look at how far TMac is falling too. Right now ORL is playing better than HOU, ORL is better than last year, HOU is worse than last year.

You gotta figure that Van Gundy is really on the hot seat, unless Houston fans have heard otherwise locally.

Man, it sucks being up so early and all alone here.


Anyway, I just read the morning ESPN and saw that the chair thrower also has an assault conviction and was brought up on attempted murder charges. I won't go any farther here, I wish I could post the info in the closed thread instead, but aren't we seeing a trend in the fan behavior side of things?

Oh, also 2 of the men (not the chair thrower yet, but Green and a guy that came onto the court) have now also been banned from the Palace for life. First of all, good luck enforcing that crap as long as they don't get into trouble there again. Second of all, Green's lawyer called it "picking on the little guy". You can't make this stuff up.

How come you are up so early Seth? Do you work that early? Poor Sleeper? Maybe your rich and have nothing else to do? After all you got to a lot of games and have some really good seats, us mere mortals can't afford to go to all those games, the beer is simply to expensive~

I wouldn't be surprised if management is trying to figure out what to do for replacements if they do fire him (or he walks out). Lots of fans want Phil Jackson but since the Rockets would still be a couple of players away from contending even if they played up to par, that means Mr. I Only Coach Contenders probably wouldn't bother with them. Who else is out there?

Man, the Spurs have really kicked it up a couple of notches during their recent winning streak. They've won their last five games, and none of htem by less then 14 points. Sure there's some garbage, but blowing out Dallas twice is nothing to sneeze at, and Utah and Denver are pretty decent as well, especially the resurgent Denver the Spurs beat and not that ugly team that began the season.

I guess this is what happens when you actually manage to keep a team more or less together from one season to the next. nice to have some consistency.

Is Del Harris still an assistant at Dallas? I recall Yao had some good things to say about him when he coached the Chinese national team for the Olympics. And though he never took the Lakers really deep into the playoffs, they improved every year under his coaching.

Well, if 'laughing' does the trick, maybe that's a diet he needs to consider.

The Lakers lost a game they shouldn't have. They did that frequently during the last 2 seasons (while Shaq was a huge part of the team), and to even greater scorn. They are what they are, a young team trying to find its way.


The Heat simply will not win a title with the players they have. Case closed.




I assume that's a dig at the Lakers. If I'm wrong, forgive me, Chris. Anyways, the Spurs are potentially the best team in the league, but its early. 'Don't count your chickens...' (a lesson I painfully learned).

As you say Jan, it is early. Plus I have not seen all the teams (though all of the probably best ones) and for sure I have not seen them on every night.

But from what I have seen, the Spurs are playing better than anyone else. By a fair margin.

Not better than Seattle

Nope, Jan, not a dig at the Lakers at all. It's a dig at the Spurs, who up until this year, have overhauled their roster practically every single year since 1999. They had a decent amount of consistency between 99 and 2000, but then Duncan got hurt and missed the play-offs, so that was out. Other then that, there has been no consistency at all from season to season, which is part of the reason I think the Spurs have been such slow starters in the past, they were still learning to play together. this year they know how to play together, and so are off to a much better start.

And agreed on not counting based on the number of embryological containers for future poultry, but it's still nice to see them not struggle out of the gates. Normally I don't get to see them play like this until the all-star break or later.

Del sounds like a good idea. Good, solid coach and he's still well-liked in Houston from his previous coaching tenure with the Rockets. Plus, as you say, Yao seems to like him, and the Rockets have to start thinking about making Yao happy if they can't turn it around this season with Van Gundy. Yao's known for being very loyal but they shouldn't take for granted that he'll stay after this season if he's unhappy.

Plus in school with no early classes. Lately I've been just waking fully up around 4 AM, no matter when I go to bed (lately 9-10).

I seriously need to get back into the reality of the working world.

I cherry pick them typically, sticking with the home opener (always) and then 1 or 2 premiere games. Usually I end up getting 1 or 2 free games (like into a suite for the Orlando game) via friends. It helps that I am the biggest Pacers fan anyone knows, I get more offers than normal I think.

Then when the playoffs come I usually go to every game, but mostly by myself. 3-4th row seat will run you $130-140 face and this is my favorite hobby (even more than film). Engineering pays well enough for that, and while in school my dad passed away which left me enough to see some games recently, though not leaving me rich or anything.

This year I did the home opener with my wife (probably $80 total for 2 upper level), the Xmas game (same) and the first Miami game (single, 3rd row, 170 since they went up from the 110 just 2 season ago). The key is to avoid scalping by buying single seats. 170 for 2 scalper seats is still probably 2nd level or no better than 20-25th row. Wife doesn't care to go so I get to enjoy the benefits of buying from the box office instead.

That's still far less than 2 seats on a 10 game package upper, or even 1 if I found someone to split it. Better to see a couple close than a lot far away. Of course with football its just the opposite. Close seats are a waste and sitting high lets you see a lot more than on TV.

Anybody catch what exactly it was that Sprewell said to bring down the wrath of Stern? All the AP report said was that it was a "sexual expletive." I can think of quite a few that don't bear repeating, so anyone care to get specific?

It reportedly begins with the letter "c"

This probably won’t be true after tonight (as the Knicks play New Orleans), but right now the Eastern Conference, Atlantic Division has all of its teams under .500.

Anyone see the latest story on Kobe's accusations about Karl Malone? This is compelling in a train-wreck sort of way:


"Young Mexican girls"?! WTF? Is Vanessa from a Mexican family? What a ridiculous story.

There is poetic justice that Malone was hitting on Kobe's wife. Maybe Kobe could give the Mailman a lecture on marital fidelity.

Heh, there is that level of irony at play, to be sure. But the "Mexican girls" comment is just baffling. And elsewhere in that ESPN article, Malone's agent also confirms that he said it, so it's not just an invention to smear him or anything. What the hell is that all about?

ESPN is reporting that the Nets and Raptors had agreed on a trade to send Vince Carter to New Jersey. If this goes down, I really don't see this as being a bad move on the Nets part because I think Carter would be alright when he didn't have to carry the whole team on his back.

Wow, I've got to say that Phoenix is really impressing me this season and I never saw what Seattle is doing coming either.

As an Ontario native, I have mixed emotions regarding this proposed trade. On the one hand, VC is the franchise's main draw and identity within the league. Then again, he has been plagued with a number of injuries throughout his career, he hasn't delivered during their playoff appearances and he's become an incessant whiner, expressing his dissatisfaction with the hiring of GM Rob Babcock and the selection of Rafael Arajuo in the NBA draft. Alonzo Mourning has expressed his wish to be traded to a contender earlier this year, so the likelihood of his reporting to the Raptors are slim (he has two years left in his contract).

The key to the trade is the acquisition of two first-round picks, with one in 2005 and the other in 2006. Question is, who are the forerunners as NCAA prospects go? We'll probably get a better idea in the weeks leading up to March Madness, but assuming that everything goes well with the lottery, now may be the right time to move VC. He's not a contributor on the floor at this time (he's on the injured list with a strained left Achilles' tendon and is expected to miss the next two games), he has three years left with the Raptors (I don't expect him to re-sign with Toronto once his contract expires) and he still has value as a commodity (unfortunately, very little with the club or Toronto fans).

With no Maple Leafs on the tube, there isn't much to be excited about as a Toronto sports fan.

In your well-duh NBA moment of the day, Mark Stein just said on ESPN News that Nets ownership is admitting that letting K-Mart go was a big mistake.


Warning Spoiler! Click to show

Now I'm waiting for the Lakers to make the same admission regarding Shaq not that it will make me feel any better about that awful awful trade.

I hope Miami wins on Saturday and Shaq has a big game maybe it will humble Kobe up a bit. But I doubt it.

What the hell, I'm bored, so here goes. What kind of Laker fan makes a statement like this? Short answer? A fair-weather fan. I remember Phil Ford, ok? I know George Kaplan has been a Laker fan since the Minneapolis days but I've seen Lakers players come and go since the late '70's, and the only thing that has remained the same since that time has been that they're my favorite team. Sure, Kobe's an ass, I miss Shaq, too, and the Lakers are not going to win the championship. But I take solace in the fact that Jerry Buss has more rings than Steinbrenner, and that the Lakers are the greatest franchise in basketball history. Casey, accept what the Lakers are now, faults and all, or else jump on some other bandwagon.

The arbitrator has reduced O'Neal's suspension from 25 to 15 games but upheld the others. The NBA is going to court on Thursday to argue that the arbitrator doesn't have any legitimate role in the matter. Regardless it looks like the others penalties are going to stand.

O'Neal suspension Reduce

I think there is a team across the country in Green and White that, while down now, would argue this from a history perspective.

However, if I were a die hard Lakers fan, I too would argue that now is the time for them to -lose- and -get pummeled-. I think there is some logic to this as a fan of a franchise.

I'm a major Chiefs fan, but I'm praying to god they lose the last two games of the NFL season, not just for the draft pick, but because I fear if they finish 8-8, the ownership will say "see, we were -this- close" and make no substantial changes that need to be made on defense to improve the club.

The Lakers are the same way. They need a season in which they really struggle it out to sell to Kobe that his vision of how to do things is, in fact, wrong, and this season was not a season that was "so close"

Good franchises and players get the message and react accordingly.. so, I don't see any problem for Lakers fans who want to say "this is the year in which we need to mold our players to be hungry.. and realize they aren't the boss"