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Sony blows it with new portable music player

#1
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7/8/04 at 8:05am
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Sony challenges Apple with new 20GB music player

No native MP3 support? You have got to be kidding me. I wasn't surprised when Hi-MD didn't support MP3, but now they've finally got a hard-drive player and MP3 has to have another lossy conversion to ATRAC if you want to play it on this player? Do these people even realize that MP3 is the de facto personal storage standard for music?

On top of all this, it won't play protected AAC or WMA, so you're stuck with Sony's proprietary music store, resulting in three formats for purchased downloaded music (two was bad enough).

The insider scoop on what’s so very wrong with Sony

Quote:
He then goes on to say that the source of the problem lies in Japan, which wants to force products on consumers to buy products by only using standards that people need their special devices to listen to or view.


Old article still relevant:

The Civil War Inside Sony

Sony needs to sell their record label and focus on Consumer Electronics without conflict. No wonder Playstation 2 is where they make their money.
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#2
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7/8/04 at 9:02am
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I hope this isn't a threadfart (don't really care about MP3 players), but I sure dig your new signature line! Do you happen to have the Au20 of "One Size Fits All" (or "Apostrophe", for that matter)? If not, let me just say they are wonderfully mastered, not at all like the usual substandard Au20s. If you're ever interested in trading for copies, let me know (these discs are sadly too hard to come by these days).

\"Only one is a wanderer;
Two together are always going somewhere.\"
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#3
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7/8/04 at 9:14am
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Where the heck have you been, Rich Malloy?

Love Michael's sig image, too. I bought Freak Out! when it was first released by Verve in 1966. Everybody calls Sgt. Pepper rock's first "concept album," but we know better!

Nearly moved this thread to A/V Sources but thought, hey, what the hell.
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#4
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7/8/04 at 9:21am
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Michael, the news doesn't surprise me. Was this not also the case for the NetMD players, lacking native .mp3 support?

How's the Karma treating you, by the way? The G3 iPod is running strong, I'm happy to report.
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Nearly moved this thread to A/V Sources but thought, hey, what the hell.

How about an area of HTF for DAPs? The Forum already has areas for things that are on the "fringe" of home theater (e.g., video games), and threads on these devices pop up in at least 3 of the current sub-forums. I'd go out on a limb to suggest that there are at least two of us who'll drop by regularly! From small things, big things come...
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#5
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7/8/04 at 9:32am
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Typical Sony. They always try to force people to use their proprietary format. Not supporting the industry standard is just stupid and I hope it fails miserably.
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#6
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7/8/04 at 9:53am
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Quote:
I hope this isn't a threadfart (don't really care about MP3 players), but I sure dig your new signature line! Do you happen to have the Au20 of "One Size Fits All" (or "Apostrophe", for that matter)? If not, let me just say they are wonderfully mastered, not at all like the usual substandard Au20s. If you're ever interested in trading for copies, let me know (these discs are sadly too hard to come by these days).


Rich, I've got both Au20 discs and they are prized posessions. Spence Chrislu has done some great remastering where Zappa (and the ZFT) has permitted him. I still need to pick up the 'secret 1998 remasters' of You Are What You Is and Tinsel-Town Rebellion, these were mastered the same way as the Au20 discs (and fix poor mastering in the 1990 and 1995 CDs).

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How's the Karma treating you, by the way?


I use it every day at work, and some around the house when doing chores. I wouldn't do without it. I also use it when hiking and speed walking on a waist tunebelt with no skips (bad knees, can't run). I dropped it three feet onto concrete once and it still works perfectly. Glad your iPod is serving you well.

Quote:
Nearly moved this thread to A/V Sources but thought, hey, what the hell.


It seems portables get the most discussion and responses here. I too wouldn't mind a sub-area for 'Portable and Compressed Audio', which would not just cover players but also ripping and encoding issues.
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#7
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7/8/04 at 10:06am
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Heard about this the other day.

Doesn't surprise me one bit.

Sony's insistance on using proprietary formats is moronic, and clearly shows they have no idea what consumers want (or just don't care).

Looks like another dead format from Sony. Or as Sony-followers will eventually refer to it - a "niche format".
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#8
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7/8/04 at 10:14am
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Sony can be so maddening at times! I guess they're not satisfied with the format wars in hi-res audio or hi-def DVD.

In any case, I have no intention of buying an MP3 player that doesn't feature gapless playback.




Quote:
Everybody calls Sgt. Pepper rock's first "concept album," but we know better!

During the recording of Sgt. Pepper, Paul McCartney was known to repeatedly say, "This is going to be our Freak Out."
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#9
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7/8/04 at 10:24am
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So, SONY thinks it can compete with Apple iPod by using a device that doesn't work as well, use an audio compression technology that isn't as good (so I hear), has the worse music store, AND arrive a year too late.

For a bunch of engineering genius's they're pretty thick they are.

"Did you know that more people are murdered at 92 degrees Fahrenheit than any other temperature? I read an article once. Lower temperatures, people are easy-going, over 92 and it's too hot to move, but just 92, people get irritable."

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#10
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7/8/04 at 10:48am
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Quote:
Or as Sony-followers will eventually refer to it - a "niche format".


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#11
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7/8/04 at 10:57am
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Yeah i'm kinda amazed by this news too!! In theory why would i as a customer want to change to sit around and convert all my files to ATRAC? What kind of thinking is this?

I know if I rip a song or if I download a song from my collection why would I want to convert it from anything but it's native format?

I'm still waiting for the day to come when I can find one of those that plays the following: .aac, .wma, .mp3. That's when i'll break down and buy one!
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#12
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7/8/04 at 11:05am
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I tried out Sony's Connect music service last week after getting a free song code from a Big Mac. At first it seemed a lot like iTunes - you download a program that allows you to access their music store, you buy songs for $1 a piece, and you see them in your digital music library. But then I wanted to add my new Sony-supplied song to my iTunes library. No can do. I didn't see a way to transfer the songs from my work computer to my home computer either. The only way to use a Sony ATRAC song anywhere other than the downloaded Sony app is to buy new ATRAC-compatible hardware.

But that's the point - use software (music) to get people to buy new hardware. What Michael's post shows is the strategic flip side of that coin. When people buy that new hardware, leave out support for other software formats so they'll have to use Sony's service to get new music. It almost sounds like a really sly approach that just might work.

But there's a huge flaw. The new software doesn't have any advantages over the old software.

It seems kinda similar to Sony's strategy with SACD. Supply a new software format, which encourages people to buy new hardware, which encourages more sales of the new software. At least SACD has advantages over the old redbook software format, but even with those advantages SACD hasn't exactly taken the world by storm. ATRAC, on the other hand, doesn't offer a single advantage to consumers over other formats. Why would anyone want to buy ATRAC music when they can get the same music from other sources without all the constraints?

What am I missing here? How can Sony believe this has the remotest chance of succeeding?
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#13
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7/8/04 at 11:17am
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I have an ATRAC3 CD Walkman. It's second generation, the first generation ATRAC walkman players didn't support MP3 files and therefore failed catastrophically in the market place.

ATRAC3 is great, it's better than MP3 IMO for portable devices. You can create files that sound as good as MP3s but take a small fraction of the space that MP3s are. I've got a little stack of ATRAC3 discs at work (all CD-RWs) that I listen to, I've got the entire Joe Jackson catalog - everything - on one disc. That would take a stack of 4 or 5 (at least) MP3 CDs at similar sound quality. Fantastic for the RANDOM play function. I've got discs that include the entire Beatles Catalog, most of Paul McCartney's post-Beatles work, entire Who catalog, etc. It's really very darn cool.

But I can't get a car ATRAC3 CD player. WTF?

And I can't play these discs on anything else but a Sony™ ATRAC3 portable CD player.

Basically Sony's been trying to reem their proprietary formats down the indistry's throats for decades. The frustrating thing is, the proprietary formats almost always have a lot going for them! It's just that they take on the world like this and they fail and fail again. It's a corporate culture thing and it's not going to change. That "insider" article above is laughable, anyone outside Sony could easily observe the behavior and reach the same conclusions.

Philip Hamm
Moderator Emeritus

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#14
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7/8/04 at 11:47am
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I invested a lot in MiniDisc, and I don't regret it. For the time, it gave me the best sound and very lightweight, durable players. I was very happy with ATRAC. But this is 2004, and MP3 is the standard, and can be copied to all of our devices at home, at work, on the go, and in the car. I'd say MP3 has critical mass...even though most record labels hate it.
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#15
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7/8/04 at 11:49am
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This seems like a business mistake for Sony. It seems to me they should support all formats for download.

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#16
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7/8/04 at 12:04pm
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Quote:
I'd say MP3 has critical mass...even though most record labels hate it.


Which is one of the reasons why companies keep trying to promote other formats. the record companies don't like the "unsecure" mp3 format, so they are always on the lookout for other options.

This doesn't surprise me. Sony's been pulling this crap for years. My Sony Clie has both a CompactFlash slot and a Memory Stick slot, but they didn't write drivers for the CF slot, except for the wireless LAN card, which is what they intended it for. They wanted you to buy into their proprietary format, which was more expensive and less reliable. Luckily, others have been able to hack drivers to support the CF slot for other cards.

I don't know why Sony keeps doing this, since their efforts fail most of the time. I'm guessing because their primary market is Japan...

Jason
My DVD Collection
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#17
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7/8/04 at 12:13pm
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Sony's come very late to the gunfight, with a knife (to borrow a phrase).
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#18
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7/8/04 at 12:15pm
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Quote:
Sony needs to sell their record label and focus on Consumer Electronics without conflict.

Or they could just tell Sony record and studio executives who want DRM and lock-ins where to stick it.
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#19
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7/8/04 at 12:28pm
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Quote:
I wasn't surprised when Hi-MD didn't support MP3

Have you noticed that many of the MD portables (and the only Hi-MD portable) in stores like Best Buy, Target, and Circuit City do NOT have microphone or line in jacks?

The only means of getting music onto these devices are NetMD, prerecorded discs, or making discs on some other, more capable, recorder.
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#20
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7/8/04 at 12:44pm
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A Mr. Yetnikoff, former Columbia/CBS/Sony exec, recently spoke on WNYC-FM, plugging his new book on his adventures as a record exec, and suggested the following change in name from S - O - N - Y to Y - U - G- H.

That said, and as messed up as some of their current actions may be, Sony has made some good products over the years and they will hopefully return to their past culture of excellence and innovation.
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#21
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7/8/04 at 1:07pm
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Quote:
ATRAC, on the other hand, doesn't offer a single advantage to consumers over other formats.
A few months ago I was looking into Sony's new Atrac walkmen and found out about the advantage of storing a ton of music on ordinary CD-Rom's. So technically there is an advantage, as also Philip Hamm pointed out. If you want to vastly increase the amount of music you store on your discs then the Atrac system might be the way to go for you, unless you just go DVD, but what walkman plays DVDs? Of course the disadvantage is no other system would support the Atrac discs.

I'm not trying come across like Sony is perfect, but it seems to me that they wouldn't have created this thing had it not had something going for it. The way I look at it is that eventually Sony Atrac players will support MP3's and all that or there will be another format that relies on DVD. They're probably testing the waters to see if their line is worth evolving or not. Also possible future Sony products like the PS3 will support their formats.
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#22
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7/8/04 at 3:05pm
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Quote:
ATRAC, on the other hand, doesn't offer a single advantage to consumers over other formats.

ATRAC allows real-time recording on low-powered, portable devices. If you're talking about V3.0 or later encoders, using the original MiniDisc ATRAC format (~280 Kbps), the sound quality is quite good.
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#23
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7/8/04 at 3:26pm
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Anyone else find it fitting that the word ATRAC sounds like the word 8-Track?

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#24
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8/1/04 at 11:38pm
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First review is up, and it ain't pretty.

http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/solution-20040728.html

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One major downside of the new Walkman is that it can't play MP3 files, or any of the other standard formats. It can play back only a proprietary Sony format called ATRAC3, or a variation called ATRAC3plus. This means that, when you transfer your MP3 files to the new Walkman, Sony's PC software must laboriously convert them first into ATRAC3 files. Sony claims it designed the player this way because ATRAC3 produces superior sound, and because it has features that extend battery life.


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For my test, I used a very modest collection of 431 standard MP3 files. SonicStage 2 refused to transfer 15 of the files, posting a nonsensical error message. After that, it took an agonizingly long two hours and 13 minutes to transfer the remaining 416 tracks to the Walkman. By contrast, Apple's iTunes software transferred all 431 songs to an iPod in about four minutes.


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Also, the Sony software stores a shadow copy of your music library on your hard disk in ATRAC3 format, so the tracks don't ever have to be converted again, but this takes up much more hard-disk space than iTunes requires.


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But the Walkman's biggest weakness is its lousy user interface, which is dense and confusing. The SonicStage 2 software and the Connect music store are also badly designed. This is because, for all its historic brilliance in designing hardware, Sony stinks at software.


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The SonicStage 2 software is supposed to manage all your music, but it can't perform a basic function: burning a standard audio CD. For that function, Sony says you have to download a special version of SonicStage from the Web. Neither version, however, will allow you to convert a CD into MP3 files, only into Sony's proprietary ATRAC3 format.


Only supporting a proprietary format is not going to cut it in this day and age. Especially when you decide to price yourself $100 over the competition.
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#25
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8/2/04 at 6:49am
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Thanks for posting the review Michael.

Once again, Sony (especially with their pricing) likes to think that their sh*t don't stink.

This is yet another reason why I never ever want Sony to control a format again, and why I like to avoid purchasing Sony products whenever possible.
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#26
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8/2/04 at 7:34am
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Yeah, thanks Michael for posting the review. Looks like Sony blew this one.

I disagree with Marc that you can extend this to everything Sony does, however. SACD for all its trouble is a great audio format and I am happy to tough it out and get great titles to listen to in the interim.

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#27
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8/2/04 at 8:16am
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http://www.stereophile.com/news/080204digital/

Sony has some big brand advantages as well so we should not dismiss them lightly.

Viewing: Sony KDSXBR150, Samsung 1400, DirectTV
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#28
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8/2/04 at 9:45am
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Quote:
This means that, when you transfer your MP3 files to the new Walkman, Sony's PC software must laboriously convert them first into ATRAC3 files. Sony claims it designed the player this way because ATRAC3 produces superior sound...

Converting data from one lossy-compressed format to another lossy-compressed format never results in superior sound. Are they implying that an MP3 converted to ATRAC3 produces superior sound to the original MP3? I'd like to offer Sony a cool, refreshing rolling-eyeball sundae with sprinkles on top for that claim: " ".
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#29
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8/2/04 at 10:43am
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Quote:
They wanted you to buy into their proprietary format, which was more expensive and less reliable


This is obviously in reference to memory stick - how has memory stick been "less reliable"?

I've been using MS since it's inception, I've had a wide variety of sizes, and have yet to encounter any problem that would deem it "less reliable". And I don't mean just using in Sony devices, but I use MS to transfer files between PCs and Macs, devices, etc.

I'd like to see that statement backed up.

* No longer looking for Hi-Vision Laserdiscs *
(I buried that format)

www.16cylinder.com
www.jet-x.com

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#30
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9/24/04 at 8:23am
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Sony to support MP3

Quote:
Sony confirmed on Wednesday that it is working to add native MP3 support to its portable music players--a major strategy reversal that could help it compete more effectively with rivals such as Apple Computer.
Quote:
"We want to push Atrac on our music download services and remain convinced that it is the best format on the market," the ZDNet France source said. "But it is clear that the industry benchmark is Apple's iPod, which is compatible with MP3."

He obviously misinterpreted what it means to "be bullish."
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