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*** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread

#271
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While I don't know that I could break down all the reasons, I too don't think In Cold Blood is noir. I don't really agree with Walter's second point (L.A. Confidential and Chinatown are both 2.35 or so, and I certainly consider those noir), I agree more with his first point. There are just too many missing elements (such as a femme fatale).

BTW, I believe that someone in this thread mentioned Point Blank as a noir. I haven't finished watching it yet, but I've certainly seen enough to know that I'd never consider this to be noir.

"Movies should be like amusement parks. People should go to them to have fun." - Billy Wilder

"Subtitles good. Hollywood bad." - Tarzan, Sight & Sound 2012 voter.

"My films are not slices of life, they are pieces of cake." - Alfred Hitchcock"My great humility is just one of the many reasons that I...

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#272
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From Roger Ebert's review of Out of The Past:

"Most crime movies begin in the present and move forward, but film noir coils back into the past. The noir hero is doomed before the story begins -- by fate, rotten luck, or his own flawed character. Crime movies sometimes show good men who go bad. The noir hero is never good, just kidding himself, living in ignorance of his dark side until events demonstrate it to him."

I actually think he's wrong. Noir character's think they're good, and part of them are. It's the bad part in them getting them in trouble. Point Blank and In Cold Blood aren't noir because I think the characters aren't being manipulated and they certainly don't feel any guilt.

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#273
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Food for Thought: From Detours and Lost Highways: A Map of Neo-Noir by Foster Hirsch.

He considers Point Blank a neo-noir, with Marvin, a master thief in the same vein as the P.I.s of classic noir. In this case he is on a revenge quest against his wife and ex-partner who betrayed him. In discussing the films look and format he states that it adapts some of the syntax of European art films of the 1950s and early 1960s with its decorative use of color and distortions in time and space as in films by Godard, Resnais and Fellini. He says that Point Blank was the first neo-noir film in America to use color and wide screen to conjure an environment of enclosure and displacement. Glass is everwhere, yet all the characters are hiding out, and the vast open spaces of the film's unpopulated, depersonalized mise-en-scene become as ominous as the traditional mise-en-scene of classic noir. On the enlarged horizontal screen, the characters are often caught in frames within the frame, separated from each other by glass or drapes or windows.

On a personal note, regardless of how you want to classify it, Point Blank is a hell of a movie, and one I'd love to see released on DVD. Note: This Point Blank should not be confused with the 1998 Mickey Rourke film of the same name which is available on DVD and has nothing to do with the original. Payback, however, starring Mel Gibson is a remake of 1967s Point Blank. Its not a bad film, but nowhere in Point Blank's league.
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#274
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it adapts some of the syntax of European art films of the 1950s and early 1960s with its decorative use of color and distortions in time and space as in films by Godard, Resnais and Fellini.
Well that's certainly true. It attempts to be avant-garde and psychedelic. But how that's film noirish is beyond me. It's certainly a crime film, and has some dark characters, but Lee Marvin in this isn't anything like the classic P.I.'s of film noir if you ask me.

"Movies should be like amusement parks. People should go to them to have fun." - Billy Wilder

"Subtitles good. Hollywood bad." - Tarzan, Sight & Sound 2012 voter.

"My films are not slices of life, they are pieces of cake." - Alfred Hitchcock"My great humility is just one of the many reasons that I...

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#275
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I agree with Walter and George that In Cold Blood doesn't quite fit the mold of Film Noir.

Still, the black and white cinematography of Conrad Hall gives it a noir look (like George, the 2.35 AR doesn't bother me as being "un-noir").

Another missing element is a lack of a Femme Fatale, which pretty much goes along with Walters point about the characters creating their own situation.

For ordinary men, it's a burning, fiery furnace.
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#276
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Quote:
Another missing element is a lack of a Femme Fatale, which pretty much goes along with Walters point about the characters creating their own situation.


Not to ba an ass, but I'd argue against both of these points. I can name many noirs that don't have anything resembling a Femme Fatale.

I also disagree with Walter about noir characters not creating their own doom (though I agree with most of his other points in general). One of the things that I've always loved with noir is that these "doomed protagonists" almost always have a way out and they always choose the other path. Though sometimes they are manipulated, most of the time they know that it's happening. I don't want to give any spoilers, but with the majority of noirs it's the choices the leads make that put's them in the situation that will eventually spiral out of control, Lady from Shanghai and The Postman Always Rings Twice are two great examples of this.

I also wouldn't call In Cold Blood a noir, it is a great movie, but a different beast.
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#277
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I can name many noirs that don't have anything resembling a Femme Fatale.
I can think of some noir like films that don't quite have the traditional femme fatale, but I certainly can't name many film noirs with nothing even resembling a femme fatale.

Could you please list a few of those many? Thanks.

"Movies should be like amusement parks. People should go to them to have fun." - Billy Wilder

"Subtitles good. Hollywood bad." - Tarzan, Sight & Sound 2012 voter.

"My films are not slices of life, they are pieces of cake." - Alfred Hitchcock"My great humility is just one of the many reasons that I...

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#278
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Quote:
I can name many noirs that don't have anything resembling a Femme Fatale.


Who couldn't?

I was just making a point that that is one element that many noirs DO have that this one DOESNT.

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#279
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Quote:
Could you please list a few of those many? Thanks.


Sure, from one of my earlier posts

Quote:
Femme Fatale to me is one of the least necesary requirments in noir. D.O.A. is one of the finest examples of noir and although there are "bad" women, none of them are femme fatales is the classic sense. Movies like Black Angel, Kansas City Confidential, The Third Man, In A Lonely Place and Brute Force have no femme fatales either are absolute noirs.


and from another

Quote:
Add to that list;

Touch of Evil
The Big Sleep
This Gun For Hire
The Big Combo
DOA
and many others

All noirs, all with no FFs.

As well as Murder, My Sweet, The Asphalt Jungle, Pickup On South Street, He Walked By Night. others as well.

But I really think my opinion on this is clear, I don't think noir is a genre that can be pigeonholed into "crime movie with femme fatale". Though if you feel that most of the movies I've listed aren't noirs, I'd be willing to listen.

I was only refering to this again when I saw that criteria used to discount a movie from being a noir (which I agree with, just for different reasons).

The more I read Walter's take on the 1.33 vs 2.35, the more I agree. 2.35 gives a more vast and desolate view of the world in black and white (Down By Law), but isn't able to be as claustrophobic. But that's after thinking about it for all of twenty mins, I'm gonna have to test it out with some movies, might be a perfect time to check out my copy of In Cold Blood (yes, I buy DVDs of movies I've seen and then wait months or years to watch the new copy, it's like I'm waiting for the perfect mood, I'm a little odd)

Quote:
Who couldn't?

I was just making a point that that is one element that many noirs DO have that this one DOESNT.


I should apologize Rob, I was using your post to refer to comments made earlier, you just summed them up in a short sentence (the "quote" function here isn't all that great).
It wasn't really meant for you.
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#280
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Seems to me there is some dispute as to what you consider a Femme Fatale.

For example, I think Veronica Lake is a Femme Fatale in This Gun For Hire

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#281
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Quote:
Seems to me there is some dispute as to what you consider a Femme Fatale.


Probably.

from an earlier post

Quote:
Well, the presence of a woman does not make her a Femme Fatale. FFs aren't just any woman who happens to be in a crime movie. Hayworth in The Lady From Shanghai is a Femme Fatale, Jean Peters in Pickup on South St is not.


*spoilers*


Warning Spoiler! Click to show
I'll add to it that a Femme Fatale to me is a woman who is actively involved in the deciept and downfall of the protagonist. Of course their are degrees to this, but I don't see Lake fitting that role. Although she is a woman and indeed does lead Ladd to his death, she's never decieptfull about it with him, he knows what he is doing when he does it. Ultimately it is Raven himself who has chased down this ending for himself.
Same cannot be said for Gardner in The Killers, she is the perfect Femme Fatale, she is aware of her every move and nothing she does is by happenstance.
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#282
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That's certainly a fair definition of what a Femme Fatale is Dave, although I think it is a bit more narrow than mine.


Warning Spoiler! Click to show
You make a good point regarding Lake not deceiving Ladd's character, and he knew what he was doing. Still, the fact that Lake led Ladd (say that three times fast) to his death because of his apparent feelings for her, one can argue she is a Femme Fatale.


However, I can't say that I strongly disagree with your view on this issue. Certainly a female who lies, cheats and deceives the main character, resulting in his downfall, is more of a Femme Fatale than one who is forthright!

Hmmm....can there be "good" Femme Fatales and "bad" Femme Fatales?

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#283
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spoiler tags would be nice.

[#poiler] Major plot point revealed [/#poiler] - Replace each # character with an s

- Walter.

Fidelity to the source should always be the goal for Blu-ray releases.

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#284
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*spoilers*


Warning Spoiler! Click to show
I'd also say that rather then simply lead Ladd to his death, she actually redeems him at the end. This was war-time and Raven finally makes the right choice, to make sure he get's the confession. He was already going to kill Gates and Bewster, this was made clear in the beginning, but now it seems honorable.


Anyways, our definitions really aren't that different.
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#285
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Using *spoilers* just above a specific plot point is not good enough if we're going to talk about films in detail. You need to use spoiler tags which is quite easy, as Walter demonstated in his above post. I've edited some posts with the proper spoiler tags and I hope everybody can follow that lead from now on.





Crawdaddy
G.W. McLintock: Camille, you're on your own.
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#286
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Well Dave, I think my disagreement with you is with the following phrase:
don't have anything resembling a Femme Fatale.

There's a huge difference between not having a narrowly defined femme fatale, and having nothing that even resembles a femme fatale. One can quibble about whether they are definitely femme fatales or not, but certainly most of the films you listed include something that at least resembles a femme fatale.

For example, Lauren Bacall in The Big Sleep is a femme fatale until the end of the film. If that ending were only slightly different, then she'd be the classic femme fatale. As it is, that certainly qualifies for "resembling a femme fatale" in my opinion.

"Movies should be like amusement parks. People should go to them to have fun." - Billy Wilder

"Subtitles good. Hollywood bad." - Tarzan, Sight & Sound 2012 voter.

"My films are not slices of life, they are pieces of cake." - Alfred Hitchcock"My great humility is just one of the many reasons that I...

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#287
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Quote:
For example, Lauren Bacall in The Big Sleep is a femme fatale until the end of the film. If that ending were only slightly different, then she'd be the classic femme fatale. As it is, that certainly qualifies for "resembling a femme fatale" in my opinion.


OK, I'll give you the Big Sleep for "resembling" one, even though she clearly isn't. With the same criteria I'll give you Murder, My Sweet as Trevor does try her hardest, but still fails. However most of the other films listed have nothing close to a FF. For me it's absolutely necessary for the Femme Fatale to actually be "Fatale" and be aware of it, simply appearing as one to throw the audience off isn't quite enough.

I apologize for not using the spoiler tags, I'll use them in the future for specific scene give aways.
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#288
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Dave,

To my mind, you named a enough films to certainly support your point. The Big Clock could easily make the list as well.

George,

You mentioned that if the ending were slightly different in the The Big Sleep, Bacall would have been the "classic femme fatale."

I'm curious, what different ending do you envision would support your point?
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#289
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Quote:
The Big Clock could easily make the list as well


But again, the main character never would have been in his predicament if it weren't for the sultry blonde, nearly leading to the destruction of his marriage and being charged with murder.

So, at a minimum, there is a "resemblance" to a Femme Fatale.

For ordinary men, it's a burning, fiery furnace.
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#290
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You mentioned that if the ending were slightly different in the The Big Sleep, Bacall would have been the "classic femme fatale."

I'm curious, what different ending do you envision would support your point?
OK, Bogie's tied up, and Bacall, instead of untying him, reveals that she's been playing him as a sucker, and she's been in cahoots with the bad guys all along. Bogie escapes, but he and Bacall are both gunned down in the end.

"Movies should be like amusement parks. People should go to them to have fun." - Billy Wilder

"Subtitles good. Hollywood bad." - Tarzan, Sight & Sound 2012 voter.

"My films are not slices of life, they are pieces of cake." - Alfred Hitchcock"My great humility is just one of the many reasons that I...

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#291
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Ok... So I've been slowly getting through the TCM noir movies I tapes last week. I managed to find a gem that I never heard of: Roadblock. An L.A. insurance detective starts to get involved with a girl he is increasingly attracted to, even though he sees her as a chiseller. She makes it clear that her tastes are too expensive for him, so he sets about getting a lot of money quickly and illegally. Charles McGraw stars and he also has a good write up in the book "Dark City".

A B-movie for sure but I enjoyed it greatly.

The other one I watched was Dial 1119. That one's not so good. A former mental patient murders a bus driver, then takes refuge in a bar, where he holds the patrons hostage. (apparently 1119 was 911 back in the day)

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#292
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George-

Lets remember the spoiler tags, k big guy!?

:wink:

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#293
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Here's a list of pretty clear cut femme fatales that come to mind:
From the classic era of film noir:
Mary Astor - the Maltese Falcon
Barbara Stanwyck - Double Indemnity
Joan Bennett - Scarlett Street
Ava Gardner - The Killers
Lana Turner - The Postman Always Rings Twice
Anne Savage - Detour
Jane Greer - Out of the Past
Rita Hayworth - The Lady from Shanghai
Yvonne de Carlo - Criss Cross
Peggy Cummins - Gun Crazy

From the neo-noir era:
Kathleen Turner - Body Heat
Lara Flynn Boyle - Red Rock West
Linda Fiorentino - The Last Seduction
Virginia Madsen - The Hot Spot
Jennifer Warren - Night Moves
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#294
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Quote:
OK, Bogie's tied up, and Bacall, instead of untying him, reveals that she's been playing him as a sucker, and she's been in cahoots with the bad guys all along. Bogie escapes, but he and Bacall are both gunned down in the end.

Well, that film would not be made in 1946. First of all it would never survive the Production Code where the bad guys need to be punished in the end. Not to mention audiences accepting a major star like Bogart (playing a relatively moral protagonist) dying. Not likely.

The point I want to make though has little to do with how films end or don't end and more to do with the core of what makes a femme fatale. A femme fatale contributes to leading a man down a path of strong negative consequences, fueled by sexual attraction or intimacy.

Bacall is a femme fatale because (even though she is protecting a loved one) as she deceptively puts Bogie in harm's way. In my view, Vivian pre-dates Evelyn Mulwray of Chinatown. Both are protecting a love one while deceiving a private detective. In the end, Vivian's actions or non-actions lead Bogart indirectly to having to kill a man as certain as if Bogart had pulled the trigger himself. Presuming what could or couldn't have been is simply my guess, but the fact remains that Vivian put Marlowe in harm's way.

Now, regarding The Big Clock:

Quote:
But again, the main character never would have been in his predicament if it weren't for the sultry blonde, nearly leading to the destruction of his marriage and being charged with murder.

So, at a minimum, there is a "resemblance" to a Femme Fatale.

Sultry blonde? How did that dame get to be a sultry blonde?

Rob,

I don't see any difference between Pauline York in The Big Clock and Ida Sessions in Chinatown. Seedy woman that serve as a plot device, nothing more.

In fact, you can make a strong case that George (Ray Milland) is never in harm's way except his own doing:


Warning Spoiler! Click to show
After getting a call from the mammoth Janoth while on his honeymoon, George simply needed to do two things:

1. Call someone in the press and leak that Janoth has his whole staff working on finding a mystery murderer with the the initials J.R.

2. Go to the police with his story of everything that happened and all he knows.

So ... his word against the all-powerful Janoth who denies ever being in the dead woman's apartment that night? Hardly, Janoth makes the critical mistake of introducing the name Jefferson Randolph as the suspected murderer (as well as telling his whole staff of writers). As the dead woman just met Randolph for the first time the very night of the murder, the key question is how does Janoth who denies being with the blonde happen to know that name? Go straight to jail.


Yes, yes, I know it is just a movie, the problem is that there was no need whatsoever for the director to include that plot point - none. So, what is an otherwise terrific film gets mucked up because the remaining 80 percent of the film is pointless. On a bright note, the film is worth seeing just for the performances, including a very interesting role for Harry Morgan.
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#295
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Concerning The Big Clock:


Warning Spoiler! Click to show
The reason he didn't go right to the police is because he didn't know the blonde was dead until he came back to the city and found her body. I think, I'm not 100 percent, that he instead was tasked to find the missing man - himself. He was just trying to save his marriage at the start.

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#296
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Quote:
Concerning The Big Clock:


Warning Spoiler! Click to show

The reason he didn't go right to the police is because he didn't know the blonde was dead until he came back to the city and found her body. I think, I'm not 100 percent, that he instead was tasked to find the missing man - himself. He was just trying to save his marriage at the start.



Warning Spoiler! Click to show
Yes he needs to confirm that she is dead before going to the police. And you're right, he doesn't know that she is dead. But that doesn't change my point. George gets a phone call on his honeymoon from the guy that on the previous day fired him and now wants to offer him six months vacation and other stuff to track down a guy with a fake name? A name he could have only learned from the blonde the prior night? And George, the golden boy of Crimewave publications (or whatever it was called) can't put two and two together? Even if he didn't know what was going on for sure, checking out the blonde should have been his first step.

And no, if his key motivation was to try and save his marriage he would have stayed on his honeymoon.
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#297
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Kansas City Confidential is a tough little caper noir flic with nary a femme fatale in sight. Not quite in the same league as Asphalt Jungle or The Killing but what is. Still, it's plenty good enough to add to my growing Noir collection.

With it's multiple DVD versions, I'll assume the Image disc (which is the one I rented) is the one to get.

Now the only other Phil Karlson films I've seen previously were Walking Tall & Ben, both of which I'll now forgive.

Any comments/views on the other Karlson Noir films?
The Brothers Rico (1957)
The Phenix City Story (1955)
5 Against the House (1955)
Hell's Island (1955)
Tight Spot (1955)
99 River Street (1953)
Scandal Sheet (1952)


99 River Street is the only one I'm familiar with, still waiting to catch this on TCM one of these days.
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#298
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Hello fellow noirheads...

I just posted my review in the software section for the recent Criterion release of Port Of Shadows, a 1938 film directed by Marcel Carné.

I can't imagine there's anyone reading and participating in this thread who wouldn't enjoy this film a great deal. I'm not too quick to add foreign titles to my list of noirs, but I added this one instantly. If you're a fan of foreign film, do yourself a favor and check this one out.
My Top 25 Noirs:

25. 711 Ocean Drive (1950), 24. Odds Against Tomorrow (1959), 23. Desperate (1947), 22. Pushover (1954), 21. The Blue Dahlia (1946), 20. The File on Thelma Jordon (1949), 19. He Ran All the Way (1951), 18. The Asphalt Jungle (1950), 17. The Killing (1956), 16. I Walk Alone (1948),...
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#299
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Well I just recieved my noir boxset in the mail yesterday so hopefully I'll be able to dig into a few of the films this weekend.

I need to watch more of these films. You guys are embarassing me with all your knowledge.

This message ends with Todd.

Hey kid you got no class. Hit the bums, kid. Run like the devil. Get a tin can and take up mooching. Knock on back doors for a nickel.
Tell them your story. Make \'em weep. You could have been a meat-eater, kid. But you didn\'t listen to me when I laid it down.
Stay off...

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#300
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Concerning The Big Clock


Warning Spoiler! Click to show
>>Yes he needs to confirm that she is dead before going to the police. And you're right, he doesn't know that she is dead. But that doesn't change my point. George gets a phone call on his honeymoon from the guy that on the previous day fired him

Actually he quit, remember? They were begging him to come back.

>>and now wants to offer him six months vacation and other stuff to track down a guy with a fake name? A name he could have only learned from the blonde the prior night?

He knew his boss didn't know it was a fake name. He knew immediately he was talking about himself. And the reason he was trying to save his marriage is because, in his mind, if it got out that he missed the train for his honeymoon because he spent the night with a hot blonde that his wife already suspected him of cheating with well it makes sense. Yes, he could have ignored his boss and quit after the body was found. Then the reporters would have still been tracking down the man and it would have eventually lead to him. The artist and the bar people would have spilled the bean if he didn't bribe them.

>> And George, the golden boy of Crimewave publications (or whatever it was called) can't put two and two together? Even if he didn't know what was going on for sure, checking out the blonde should have been his first step.

after setting up the investigation, it kind of was. He went to her apartment and found the body. Remember, he couldn't tell the other investigators her name because it wasn't known. Then when he left the apartment and the dead body, he spotted and talked to one of his investigators and played dumb. He knew if he didn't step in the invesigation would have lead to him. Going to the police wouldn't have helped him much because he was seen by everyone in NY the night before with the victim and the murder weapon. How could he prove his innocence? Pretty hard to convince anyone that he didn't have anything to do with it...

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