*** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread

#241

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7/20/04 at 11:03am

Robert Crawford
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Bogart, I give the edge. Not only, is his performance stellar in the role, his presence is unmatched. He appears weather-beaten, seasoned and melancholy. I have always found Bogart somewhat of poetry to watch. This role, is no different.

The first 5-7 minutes of The Big Sleep defines to me the portrayal of Marlowe by Bogart. His initial interactions with the father, both daughters and the butler were some of the most interesting scenes in any film noir I've seen over the years.

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#242

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7/20/04 at 11:20am

Robert Crawford
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Regarding Powell, I always enjoyed his films and I consider his various performances in film noir as some of his best work including his Marlowe in Murder My Sweet.

Crawdaddy

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#243

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7/20/04 at 11:34am

Zen Butler
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Robert, dead on.

I noticed something last night, as I watched Suddenly. I found many of the supporting characters wooden at best, but the dialog was nothing short of amazing, as find with film noir and neo-noir alike. In the case of the film Suddenly, I realized that this is one of the attributes that sets the genre, for lack of a universal term, apart. The dialog is so real. I swear I've had near identical conversations as these people. A film 50 years old, and the dialog and issues are very relevant to today's times.

#244

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7/20/04 at 11:34am

Mike Kelly
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Murder, My Sweet is a fine film, but there's no contest in my mind about the actors. Powell seems too petulent to me; as if he is trying too hard to be the tough guy. Bogart is the best of the Marlowes - confident, but not as much as his Sam Spade, cagey, witty and humane. And he handles a gun like he knows how to.

#245

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7/20/04 at 3:12pm

eifert
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Although I thought Powell was good and refreshing (compared to the square-jawed tough guys like Mitchum and James Garner playing Marlowe) he doesn't compare to Bogie. Powell doesn't have a tough guy image and he has zero sex appeal.

But... ,like I said earlier, I still very much enjoyed Murder, My Sweet.

I think Powell is very much like Elliot Gould's Philip Marlowe in The Long Goodbye.

It's like George Lazenby's Bond. He's good and many think he fits the Bond mold the best. But he's no Connery. He could never be.

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#246

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7/20/04 at 4:00pm

Jim_K
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I enjoy both Bogie & Powell as Marlowe but I'll give a slight edge to Powell, who's a little more laconic, sarcastic & hard-boiled in the role.

I prefer Bogie's Sam Spade to to his Marlowe if that makes any difference.

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#247

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7/20/04 at 4:05pm

george kaplan
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How about the worst Marlowe? Of the ones I've seen I think I'd give the vote to Robert Montgomery in Lady in the Lake.

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#248

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7/20/04 at 4:14pm

Jim_K
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oh and finally watched Crossfire which was excellent. Robert Ryan really steals the show in this one.

Also caught the second pairing of Veronica Lake/Alan Ladd in The Glass Key, which was good but I didn't like it nearly as much as This Gun For Hire. Speaking of This Gun For Hire, anyone notice the strong similarities between this & Melville's Le Samourai mainly in the way Ladd's Raven character is portrayed (loner/animal lover/etc.). Even some shots are similar. weird.

on deck The Blue Dahlia & Kansas City Confidential

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#249

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7/20/04 at 5:27pm

rich_d
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Quote:

How about the worst Marlowe? Of the ones I've seen I think I'd give the vote to Robert Montgomery in Lady in the Lake.

Can't really comment on best or worst as I haven't seen all the candidates. The list of Philip Marlowe's according to IMDB.com.

Humphrey Bogart (Philip Marlowe)
. . . Big Sleep, The (1946)

James Garner (Philip Marlowe)
. . . Marlowe (1969)

Elliott Gould (Philip Marlowe)
. . . Long Goodbye, The (1973)

Tomás Hanák (Philip Marlowe)
. . . Mazaný Filip (2003)

James Kirkwood (Philip Marlowe)
. . . Hired Wife (1934)

Robert Mitchum (Philip Marlowe)
. . . Farewell, My Lovely (1975)

George Montgomery (I) (Philip Marlowe)
. . . Brasher Doubloon, The (1947)

Robert Montgomery (I) (Philip Marlowe)
. . . Lady in the Lake (1947)

Dick Powell (I) (Philip Marlowe)
. . . Murder, My Sweet (1944)

#250

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7/20/04 at 5:56pm

Jim_K
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Stacy Keach also did a turn as Marlowe in a TV series back in the 80's.

Probably unfair since I haven't seen them all & don't remember Keach's or Mitchum's portrayals but I'll go with Elliott Gould as the worst. Really didn't care much for Altman's film either.

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#251

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7/20/04 at 6:07pm

Zen Butler
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Powers Boothe should be on that list for
"Philip Marlowe, Private Eye" (1983)

I've heard his performance is very good.

#252

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7/20/04 at 6:15pm

Jim_K
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Powers Boothe should be on that list for
"Philip Marlowe, Private Eye" (1983)

oops - Did I say Stacy Keach? :b Yes it was Powers Booth in this and the TV series. I always get these two mixed up for some reason.

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#253

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7/20/04 at 8:33pm

rich_d
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I excluded Philip Marlowe TV roles - after all this is the movie forum.

#254

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7/20/04 at 10:44pm

Zen Butler
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I forgot about Stacy Keach in Mike Hammer. I kind of liked that show.

rich_d, you're right. OOPS :b

#255

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7/21/04 at 3:33am

Glenn R
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Powell versus Bogart as Marlowe? Wonder what Chandler himself thought?

On the one hand, Luhr reports Chandler "felt Bogart was superior to Dick Powell." On the other hand, Gene Philips (Creatures of Darkness: Raymond Chandler, Detective Fiction, and Film Noir) reports that "Chandler affirmed later on that Powell came closest to his own conception of Marlowe." The two comments are not necessarily contradictory. The one is a performance comparison, while the other concerns which is closest to the source material.

Related Powell/Murder, My Sweet tidbits:

- MMS was not the first film adaptation of Chandler's Farewell, My Lovely. The inaugural adaptation was the third film in the RKO Falcon series, The Falcon Takes Over (1942). While the Falcon (starring George Saunders) replaces Marlowe, Chandler story elements that survive include the Moose Malloy, Velma, and Jessie Florian characters.

- MMS was a last minute title change from the novel's title. Market tests indicated that Farewell, My Lovely gave audience's the impression it was just another Powell musical – the baggage issue.

- Prior to landing MMS, Powell had unsuccessfully campaigned for the lead in . . . get this . . . Double Indemnity.

#256

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7/21/04 at 4:16am

Jim_K
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The Blue Dahlia is a strong noir. An entertaining murder mystery in which almost everyone is a valid suspect. The only problem I had was the somewhat hokey demise of the real killer in the end.

I'd rank the Ladd/Lake noirs accordingly
1. This Gun For Hire
2. The Blue Dahlia
3. The Glass Key

All are well worth the time.

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#257

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7/21/04 at 1:13pm

eifert
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Haven't seen Blue Dahlia yet, so I can't comment on it. I'm becoming a Noir DVD snob. This Gun for Hire was cool.

I did watch a few of the new Universal DVD noirs this week.

I watched The Big Clock last night. What a great movie! I read only ok reviews online, but the movie is excellent! The DVD transfer isn't as sharp as others release lately, but it's well worth the 12 bucks...

The other, Black Angel wasn't so great. Dan Duryea and Peter Lorre are in it, and those guys are noir giants. But what a disappointment. I had the movie figured out quick and Duryea wasn't the slimy bow-tie wearing blonde he usually plays. He even had black hair. Oh well.

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#258

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7/21/04 at 3:41pm

Jim_K
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I had the same hum-drum opinion as you re: The Black Angel which was easily the weakest film of the Universal noir discs.

I also agree on The Big Clock which seems to be very much under-appreciated.

I think I'm going to give Pickup on South Street another spin tonight as I'm still waiting for Kansas City Confidential to arrive from Netflix.

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#259

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7/21/04 at 4:34pm

Zen Butler
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Quote:

Pickup on South Street

Wonderful

#260

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7/21/04 at 4:35pm

DaveButcher
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I have a different take on Black Angel, although certainly not among the best noirs, it nicely uses Lorre (as well as Duryea) against type. Well not so much against type, but Lorre is the red herring and as he usually is a bit player or a bad guy, this was a bit of a surprise. Same with Duryea, sure he's usually the straight up slime ball, in this you weren't sure about him 'till the end (at least I wasn't the first time I saw it).

And hey, the opening shot was great.

I'll throw .02 cents into the Marlowe question. I've heard the same comments that Glenn R has, and I agree with his take. Marlowe is a hard character to portray faithfully, he doesn't lend himself to the screen very well. It's well and good to have a relatively moralistic, non-tough guy, non-womanizing detective in a novel, but to bring that to life on the screen you'd almost have to make him even weaker then Powell and how much fun would that be. To me The Big Sleep is a better movie and a better performance, but I am a sucker for both "B"s.

I really don't think of any of the actors who have played Marlowe as "being" Marlowe. The real Marlowe is in the novels, in the movies it's the plots that drive them for me and name of the PI is irrelevent.

Pickup on South Street is among my faves (I can't recall, but if it didn't make my top ten, it was close)

#261

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7/21/04 at 4:42pm

Rob Tomlin
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I love both The Big Clock and This Gun For Hire with a very slight preference for the latter (after all, it has Veronica Lake!).

This Gun For Hire also has more of the dark/shadowy cinematography that I love and expect from a Noir title.

Then again, the writing for The Big Clock might be a bit better than This Gun for Hire, so it's a close match.

Would anyone consider In Cold Blood to be Film Noir?

I watched this last night, and I was blown away by Conrad Hall's Black and White cinematography!

For ordinary men, it's a burning, fiery furnace.

#262

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7/21/04 at 6:42pm

Herb Kane
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Man, I take three days out for the cottage, and I miss almost 40 posts...

Thanks for the buying tips.

I would love to take a look at that list if you ever get around to compiling it.

Todd... the list is done (well sorta, I tweak it on a regular basis). I just have to figure out how to rate these titles in a manner that everyone will find useful. Unfortunately, the majority of them don't look like the new WB boxed set...

A pretty comprehensive list of what’s available can be found here:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...hreadid=141098

As for Powell vs. Bogart, as I said in my review, you’ll probably find no bigger fan of Bogart on the forum, than yours truly... but I would still give the edge to Powell in MMS. Bogart was always perfect in every way; tough guy, always calculating, always cool, charismatic, great dialogue, never ever impulsive.

Powell was the antithesis of Bogie in a part that begged for a guy who was more of a putz than Bogart could ever have been. Typically, the role called for a guy who was slightly funny, certainly a guy who knew he wasn’t immune from getting his ass kicked (watch the interaction between him and Moose… it is priceless), he was far from charismatic and he was super impulsive. Part of the film’s success is the fact, we wouldn’t expect this guy to find our house keys, but he manages to pull it off… if it were Bogart, would there be any doubt…?

But Dave is right though. When I watch The Big Sleep, I really don't connect both films. They just basically share the same name.

My Top 25 Noirs:

25. 711 Ocean Drive (1950), 24. Odds Against Tomorrow (1959), 23. Desperate (1947), 22. Pushover (1954), 21. The Blue Dahlia (1946), 20. The File on Thelma Jordon (1949), 19. He Ran All the Way (1951), 18. The Asphalt Jungle (1950), 17. The Killing (1956), 16. I Walk Alone (1948),...

#263

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7/21/04 at 8:49pm

eifert
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Warning Spoiler! Click to show

Does anyone remember the name of this noir with, I believe, Robert Mitchum? He's a poor drifter type that meets a rich girl. Anyway, there's a murder completed by Mitchum or the girl cutting the break lines in a car. When the car leaves the girls house, it goes over a cliff.

I forget the rest, but I was totally into it when I saw it on TV.

In Cold Blood is not a noir in my opinion, but it's a great movie!

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#264

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7/21/04 at 9:42pm

Glenn R
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Warning Spoiler! Click to show

a poor drifter type that meets a rich girl. Anyway, there's a murder completed by Mitchum or the girl cutting the break lines in a car

eifert: It's gotta be Otto Preminger's Angel Face (1952). Mitchum is an ambulance driver who gets ensnared by femme fatale Jean Simmons. I believe Herb also just saw it.

#265

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7/21/04 at 10:21pm

eifert
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That's it. Angel Face. Another not available on tape or DVD. And I guess they rigged the car to go in reverse.

Damn. Shoulda added it to my best noir list. Too late to bump out Roger Rabbit. (ha) Acutally I think RR is a good addition, as would Dead Men Don't Wear Plad. Parody can help define any movie type.

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#266

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7/21/04 at 11:37pm

Glenn R
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Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid is great, but my all-time favorite noir parody is My Favorite Brunette (1947). None other than Bob Hope apes Alan Ladd with Dorothy Lamour as the mysterious beauty. Mine is a poor quality Alpha DVD -- the only Alpha I own. I don't know if it's representative of their other discs, but I personally wouldn't put up with such poor quality for my core noir collection. But since this one is a noir-lite . . . plus it can be had for a song. There's also a Madacy disc, but wouldn't know if its any better. P.S. Don't confuse Brunette with Hope's My Favorite Blonde (1942).

And I found another Murder, My Sweet tidbit: Director Edward Dmytrk initially wanted John Garfield to play Marlowe.

#267

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7/22/04 at 1:27am

Robert Crawford
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A reminder to all thread participants, especially new HTF members, please remember to use spoiler tags when discussing specific plot details of films. Don't assume everyone has seen a particular film, we don't want to affect the future viewing pleasure of others!

Crawdaddy

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#268

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7/22/04 at 3:37am

george kaplan
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Re: My Favorite Brunette.

The best quality dvd I've seen of this is by Marengo (a double feature with Road to Bali). It's still not good, but better than the others. The Madacy is the worst of all. Avoid at all costs!

"Movies should be like amusement parks. People should go to them to have fun." - Billy Wilder

"Subtitles good. Hollywood bad." - Tarzan, Sight & Sound 2012 voter.

"My films are not slices of life, they are pieces of cake." - Alfred Hitchcock"My great humility is just one of the many reasons that I...

#269

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7/22/04 at 8:23am

Herb Kane
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Quote:

eifert: It's gotta be Otto Preminger's Angel Face (1952). Mitchum is an ambulance driver who gets ensnared by femme fatale Jean Simmons. I believe Herb also just saw it.

Glenn, I did indeed and it is a fabulous movie. I finally got a chance to screen my R2 Éditions Montparnasse DVD version, which was very good but not up to the recent WB transfers. Considering Angel Face was an RKO production, I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised to see it included in the next WB boxed set.

My Top 25 Noirs:

25. 711 Ocean Drive (1950), 24. Odds Against Tomorrow (1959), 23. Desperate (1947), 22. Pushover (1954), 21. The Blue Dahlia (1946), 20. The File on Thelma Jordon (1949), 19. He Ran All the Way (1951), 18. The Asphalt Jungle (1950), 17. The Killing (1956), 16. I Walk Alone (1948),...

#270

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7/22/04 at 8:52am

Walter Kittel
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Re: In Cold Blood and noir.

While it has many attributes that one could associate with noir - black and white cinematography, fatalistic character arcs, a police procedural element, and interesting character psychology - off the top of my head; I would not classify it as noir for two reasons.

1) The character's fates are created by themselves, ignoring for the moment their childhood environments. They are not manipulated into performing their actions, or falsely accused. Perry ( Blake ) and Dick ( Wilson ) are almost like a binary weapon. Apart they are harmless, but together they are capable of acts that neither could perform alone. Nevertheless, they perform these acts and there is no question of innocence or redirection of guilt to a third party.

2) Thinking about Hall's cinematography - Were any noirs shot in a 2.35 A.R? For me, the widescreen photography is at odds with how I think of noir, with the 1.33:1 ratio providing a more visually compressed space; which contributes to the trapped nature of its characters. The 2.35 landscapes of In Cold Blood communicate the isolation, and loneliness of the film's characters, but provide a different visual tone, at least for me.

In retrospect that may be one of the 'subconscious' issues I have with contemporary noirs whose absence of 1.33:1 ratios plays against my visual identification of noir and noir composition.

- Walter.

Fidelity to the source should always be the goal for Blu-ray releases.

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