*** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread

Jim, I'm not sure if you are region free capable, but I've discovered quite a few solid noir titles that are available in R2 as well - see here.

I've picked up about a dozen or so in the past month and of the titles I've watched, the presentations have actually been quite good. Yesterday I watched Journey Into Fear and Angel Face - both terrific films.

Well, I missed adding my next five (which would have been: Brute Force, Lady From Shanghai, Pickup on South Street, Postman Always Rings Twice (1946), The Killing).

George, do you want us to PM our votes to you or just post 'em?

Personally, I'd prefer pms to cluttering up this thread, but either is acceptable.

OK... I sat down and read the tread yesterday.

Here are some thoughts.

What is Noir? Well, I asked myself when I go to a movie I almost instantly recognize a movie as a noir. U-turn and The Salton Sea come to mind. So I thought: why can I recognize these movies as noir? There's no set style. It's not like a western where location and costumes help identify the genre.

True “classic” noir has great b&w photography – usually but not always influenced by German directors. But there are so many B movies and color movies that fall into the category. So there is no set movie style. There’s also no set location. Sci-fi/Fantasy or Westerns can usually be recognized by location. Noir doesn’t. Most are in an urban setting. However, movies like Red Rock West and Moonrise (the great southern gothic noir) aren’t.

Here’s what I determined. Noir is a movie that makes you feel black – that is you get a sinking feeling in your gut. The feeling is a combination of loneliness, frustration and guilt. You watch the movie and you identify with the main character. He or she is usually a good person that makes a bad decision – like we all have done in a smaller scale in our lives. The decision is usually driven by greed, lust or power. The decision – to embezzle, rob, commit murder… is wrong and the main character ALWAYS knows this but does it anyway because they think they can get away with it. That leads to more problems – more lying, cheating, stealing and possibly murder. The character ends up digging themselves into a deeper hole.

You truly feel for the guilty person in a noir because you know that they are good. One little mistake doesn’t make you bad. (Everyone watching the movie has been tempted by these feeling in their lives but usually don’t act on them.) But after a number of sinful acts the guilt and remorse is too much. The audience watching feels this dark – or noir – feeling. And there’s no release. Even if the movie ends well, with the main character pulling himself out of the hole he dug, you still feel guilt for what he or she has done. You feel dirty and ashamed. It may sound sick, but that’s why I enjoy watching noirs – because of that feeling. Some movies end with very happy endings. I hate those. They should have resolution, but not all is well. See Chinatown for a great ending.

Detective noirs work as noirs because the main hero (Philip Marlowe, for example) takes a case because he desperately needs the money or because he lusts for a woman he knows is bad. Against his better judgment he dives into a case (he’s digging his hole now.) There’s murders that he doesn’t tell the police about (deeper) there’s a dame that he’s making it with (deeper) and on top of that he’s beat up or even tortured because of his actions (more guilt and remorse.)


See what I mean? Normal guy (with a regular job – not gangsters or killers because they’re corrupt in the first place) that put themselves in a situation against their better judgments and it gets worse and worse. More guilt, more bad decisions only make it worse. House Of Games is another good modern noir that fits that mold.

The poor sap in “Last Seduction” is an example. He hooks up with an evil woman and he knows it. He digs a deeper and deeper hole with her and it gets worse and worse. In “The Night of the Hunter” the children are the ones feeling guilty. They’re disobeying adults and their parents – even running away because of a bag full of money that they know is stolen. Every decision they make makes it harder and harder for them. Even though they’re being chased by a killer they feel guilt that they’re doing something wrong.


So with all that said here’s my list of Noir movies:

1.Scarlet Street – E.G. Robinson plays a poor sap in my favorite movie of his. Yes, he’s taken advantage of but he also knows what he’s doing is wrong. Great movie.

2.Out of the Past

3.Criss Cross – caper noir. Now out on DVD. One of my favorites

4.Big Sleep – Bogie should know better than to get involved in this case. What writing.

5The Postman Always Rings Twice – the drifter makes a number of bad choices based on lust. Watching the movie, it’s understandable. Lana Turner is amazing.

Important:

The Asphalt Jungle
Maltese Falcon – helped define noir
The Set-Up – it’s a boxing noir. The boxer knows he’s supposed to throw the fight. But his decisions get him in deep water.


Otherwise:

Red Rock West – brought modern audiences the noir style
Moonrise – locations don’t matter in noir
Gun Crazy – all my important movies are “A” films. Noir has a great many B movies that are excellent. This one’s the best of the bunch.


And how about the beginning of “Psycho?” The first 20 minutes or so is a great noir movie. Then Janet Leigh is killed and I turn the movie off. I wish they made the movie where you followed Leigh on the lamb feeling guilty about stealing all that money.

eifert-

That's got to be one of the best first posts I have ever seen!

Also glad to see someone else who appreciates Red Rock West as a modern noir.

Great movie, indeed.

I think Scarlet Street would be a good introduction to Classic Noir because it has of few of the elements that make the old B&W 40's noirs so great:

Directed by Fritz Lang. Besides Metropolis and some great westerns, he was one of the great noir directors. He really showed off his highly stylized, overtly theatrical form of storytelling (one example of a German director making it in Hollywood using "Expressionism" if you're a film snob.)

Edward G. Robinson. He was usually the tough bad guy or a gangster in movies. In SS, he's a little older and actually the victim! Reminded me a little of "Tales of Manhatten."

Dan Duryea. He's a forgotten actor that starred in so many noirs. He usually played the guy that gets the hero into more trouble. He's usually a slick lanky blonde guy with a bow tie. His trade mark was usually roughing up the female lead. Really. He was actually marketed as the "Manhandler."

The SS story is great and is a perfect example of what a noir should be. However, I have never seen a decent copy of this film. It's always poor, even on DVD.

Does anyone know where to get a good copy? The one I own is from the pretty good collection of noirs called 5 Killer Classics.

Brandon,
I merged your separate thread about "Dark Passage" into this thread, since nobody replied to it. I think "Dark Passage" is one of Bogart's most underrated films. The movie was shot similar to "Lady in the Lake" from the main character's position and the locals of San Francisco were filmed beautifully.






Crawdaddy

I think the use of spoiler tags are very appropriate for this thread since we're trying to get the membership more interested in noir films by discussing them here, but at the same time, trying to avoid spoiling their viewing pleasure to those films they haven't seen yet.

Herb,
I've only sampled the film to make sure I captured it all on my dvd recorder, but from what I can tell, it's a very interesting film.






Crawdaddy

Is there a list anywhere of the noirs on DVD and some measure of their quality? I'd love to broaden my collection (only have a few at the moment) but I don't want to pick up shoddy copies if there are better ones available or soon to be available.

I did order the Warner boxset but I haven't gotten it yet.

Nope Herb, I'm stuck with Region 1 material. but thanks.



I know what you mean as I've avoided picking up a few choice titles due to lackluster video quality, such as The Hitch-Hiker & Detour. Maybe I'm spoiled & expecting too much.

Try 5 Killer Classics! The Quality is Good, not great. But for the price you can't lose. The movies are all excellent

Killer Bait (called Too Late for Tears) Scarlet Street (again not so good quality) Detour (must see) The Stranger (not really a noir but good and... DOA (another must see)

The best part aside from the movies being in good shape and not cut up, is that they have dozens of movie noir trailers and movie posters!

I think I know where noir doubts can arise, but Loretta Young plays out a classic noir struggle of questioning whether her spouse is more (or less) than she expected.

Todd's DVD quality issue comes into play for a title like The Stranger because there are so many versions out there, and I once had a real klunker. But I'm super happy with the Roan Group version! Plus it's paired up with a double-feature: The Cause for Alarm -- a nice little noir gem itself with Young playing an entirely different noir role.

Picked up The Big Combo

Cornel Wilde stars as police Lt Diamond who is a man driven to bring down the brutal mob kingpin Mr Brown played with delicious venom by Richard Conte (Barzini of The Godfather). Great supporting roles with Jean Wallace as Conte's moll, the great Brian Donlevy as Conte's conniving underboss and Lee Van Cleef & Earl Holliman as Conte's vicious henchmen.

The cinematography by the great John Alton is dark and brooding, which helps to hide the sparse low-budget sets.
Along with The Big Heat this is one of the most brutal & violent noir films I've seen, featuring an ear torture scene that rivals (and may have inspired) the torture sequence in Tarantino's Reservoir Dogs.

All in all this one ranks as one of the best I've seen in this genre/movement.

On deck - Crossfire - taped off of TCM

Ebert's latest addition to his Great Movies is Out of the Past. You can read his review on his site.

~T

OK, here’s the list of 50 films you’ve been voting on.

First I’d like to thank everyone who submitted votes. Even if you do nothing further with this list (except scoff at it), I appreciate your input to it.

To recap: this is NOT a list of the 50 best film noirs of all-time. Hell, it’s not even a list of 50 film noirs. Everyone is going to agree that some of the films on this list are not film noir, though we’re not going to agree on which ones those are.

What this is intended to be is a list of 50 films, which if you’ve seen them would give you a pretty solid grounding in film noir, in all it’s various incarnations. Obviously any such list should focus largely on those magical years 1941-1958, and this list does – 38 of the 50 films are from that time period. Still, it’s important to be cognizant of films both before and after that time period.

As far as the associated challenge, everyone is free to join, but if I’m alone in it, that’s fine. Certainly there are more extensive lists out there, but as much as I love film noir, I just don’t have time to see them all in a short period of time. There’s just too many other films I haven’t seen.

I still think this list is a pretty good one for anyone interested in noir. If there’s lots on it you haven’t seen, chances are you’d gain a lot by seeing the ones you haven’t. And if you’ve seen all but 1 or 2, then how hard is it to just watch those 1 or 2? For myself, I’ve seen 35, which means I’ll be adding 15 of these to my rental queue.

The bad news: I’ll be boring you with my thoughts about those as I see them.

Here’s the list, in chronological order:

M (1931)
You Only Live Once (1937)
I Wake Up Screaming (1941)
The Maltese Falcon (1941)
This Gun For Hire (1942)
Double Indemnity (1944)
Gaslight (1944)
Laura (1944)
Murder, My Sweet (1944)
Detour (1945)
Leave Her To Heaven (1945)
Scarlet Street (1945)
The Big Sleep (1946)
The Blue Dahlia (1946)
Gilda (1946)
The Killers (1946)
The Postman Always Rings Twice (1946)
The Stranger (1946)
Kiss of Death (1947)
Out of the Past (1947)
Pursued (1947)
The Big Clock (1948)
Force of Evil (1948)
Key Largo (1948)
Raw Deal (1948)
Sorry, Wrong Number (1948)
Criss Cross (1949)
Too Late For Tears (1949)
The Asphalt Jungle (1950)
D.O.A. (1950)
The Gunfighter (1950)
In A Lonely Place (1950)
Sunset Blvd. (1950)
Roadblock (1951)
Narrow Margin (1952)
The Big Heat (1953)
99 River Street (1953)
Pickup on South Street (1953)
The Night of the Hunter (1955)
Rififi (1955)
Touch of Evil (1958)
Odds Against Tomorrow (1959)
Branded to Kill (1967)
Le Cercle Rouge (1970)
Chinatown (1974)
Body Heat (1981)
Blade Runner (1982)
Dead Men Don’t Wear Plaid (1982)
Red Rock West (1992)
L.A. Confidential (1997)

This is great.

I've only seen about 50% or slightly more of these movies, so I will be doing my best to view as many as possible.

Great find and article! Google "Ebert's Great Movies"

You'll find a baker's dozen of noirs on Ebert's list:

Big Heat
Big Sleep
Detour
Double Indemnity
Laura
Maltese Falcon
Night of the Hunter
Out of the Past
Strangers on a Train
Sunset Boulevard
Sweet Smell of Success
Touch of Evil
Treasure of Sierra Madre

Plus these depending upon your definition of noir:

Beat the Devil
Body Heat
Chinatown
Fargo
House of Games
Le Samourai
Notorious
Rififi
Vertigo

And regarding Gaslight on George's list: If it's a noir, and there is some debate, it would be the only period noir -- that is not contemporary -- I can think of.

Todd, you're not the first to ask, especially since many of these have now fallen into the public domain. Since I own all but a couple of the titles that have been released, I plan to go through them and rate the presentation for those contemplating a purchase - I just haven't quite decided what or how to do it yet, not to mention it'll be time consuming.

A good general rule thus far however is "you get what you pay for". Of the titles I have (or had) from Alpha/Madacy etc., that I replaced from Roan/Image/Kino etc., were generally better. Not always, but generally. Too Late For Tears is a good recent example. The new Image release was slightly better than the poor transfer that exists from Alpha. Stress - slightly better, even though it's pretty obvious the same source was used for the transfer. The recent MGM release of He Walked By Night is an even better example as the MGM transfer is far better than the terrible Alpha version. Where it gets difficult is trying to gauge whether the folks are happy with the $5 Alpha release or if they are willing to spend $15 on the slightly better Image (or whatever) release.

Alpha is releasing 2-3 decent noirs a month and for the most part, the presentation is crap > mediocre with a few surprisingly decent ones that sneak by. But I'm a film lover first, so the alternative, is not having or seeing the film, because WB, Universal, Columbia or Fox are never going to release these (really) obscure gems.

Herb.

Among the Turner Classic Movie noirs this week is The Locket (1946), Friday 12:00PM EST. A notable plot device to look out for are flashbacks within flashbacks. Starring a rather fetching Laraine Day along with Robert Mitchum.

I chose it for debate reasons only. Odd Man Out could induce similar discussion?

Thanks for the buying tips.

Herb,

I would love to take a look at that list if you ever get around to compiling it.

Todd Terwilliger:

Here's a list of all the Noir DVDs that I know are out there. Included is a cool line from each of the films. This is a work in progress. I hope you all enjoy it. If you cut and paste it somewhere please give me credit. I'm not sure of the quality of all of them, I only know they are all on DVD. I recommend Greencine or Netflix and rent them:

** Disclaimer: Not all perfectly fit the mold of Film Noir. Some are more in the shades of Noir, or films with noir elements in them! **

Out of the Past (1947)
"You're like a leaf that blows from one gutter to another."


The Big Heat (1953)
"We're all sisters under the mink"


The Postman Always Rings Twice (1946)
"With my brains and your looks, we could go places"


Scarlet Street (1945)
"I wanted to laugh in your face ever since the moment I met you. You're old, ugly and I'm sick of you. Sick, sick, sick!"


Spellbound (Criterion Collection) (1945)
"I have no memory. It's like looking in a mirror and seeing nothing but mirror."



The Strange Love of Martha Ivers (1946)
"What happened?" "The road curved but I didn't"



Sweet Smell of Success (1957)
"Can you deliver?" "Tonight. Before you go to bed. Cat's in the bag, and the bag's in the river."



To Have and Have Not (1945)
"You know how to whistle, don't you Steve? You just put your lips together and blow"



Gilda (1946)
"I can never get a zipper to close. Maybe that stands for something. What do you think?"



Kiss Me Deadly (1955)
"He's a bedroom dick"



The Maltese Falcon (1941)
"When you're slapped, you'll take it and like it."



In a Lonely Place (1950)
"I was born when she kissed me. I died when she left me. I lived a few weeks while she loved me."



The Manchurian Candidate (1962)
"Its a terrible thing to hate your mother. But I didn't always hate her. When I was a child, I only kind of disliked her."



You Only Live Once (1937)
"... ruin your life. Throw it away on a worthless gorilla and end up at my age with your future behind you."



Key Largo (1948)
"it's better to be a live coward than a dead hero."



Beat the Devil (1954)
"Time. Time. What is time? Swiss manufacture it. French hoard it. Italians squander it. Americans say it is money. Hindus say it does not exist. Do you know what I say? I say time is a crook."



Detour (1945)
"Life's like a ballgame. You've got to take a swing at whatever comes along before you wake up and it's the ninth inning."



D.O.A. (1949)
"The way this guy holds onto a dollar, you'd think they weren't printing them anymore."



Casablanca (Special Edition) (1942)
"I came to Casablanca for the waters." "But we're in the middle of the desert." "I was misinformed."



The Big Combo (1955)
"I'm gonna break him so fast he won't have time to change his pants."



Dark Passage (1947)
"I was a small time crook until this very minute. Now I'm a big time crook!"



The Long Goodbye (1973)
"I tell you what we're gonna do, Marlboro. You're gonna take that goddamn J.C. Penney tie off and we're gonna have an old fashioned man to man drinking party." "Well, that's okay but I'm not taking off the tie."



Dead Reckoning (1947)
"You know, I've been thinking: women ought to come capsule-sized, about four inches high. When a man goes out of an evening, he just puts her in his pocket and takes her along with him, and that way he knows exactly where she is."



Double Indemnity (1944)
"They say native Californians all come from Iowa."



Force of Evil (1948)
"If you need a broken man to love, break your husband."



Impact (1949)
"In this world you turn the other cheek and you get hit with a lug wrench."



Laura (1944)
"It's lavish, but I call it home."



Raw Deal (1948)
"I told you he had a cash register mind. Rings every time he opens his mouth."



The Spiral Staircase (1946)
"Where's my brandy?" "I finished it for your own good."



The Stranger (1946)
"Knew damn well it was the same feller. Course he's changed some. Being buried in the earth will do that."



Gun Crazy (1949)
"We go together, Annie. I don't know why. Maybe like guns and ammunition go together."



The Big Sleep (1946)
"She tried to sit in my lap while I was standing up."



The Set-Up (1949)
"I tell you, Tiny, you gotta let him in on it. " "How many times I gotta say it? There's no percentage in smartenin' up a chump."



Odds Against Tomorrow (1959)
"Yeah, yeah, I know I got rid of the headache. Now I got cancer."



Kansas City Confidential (1952)
"It don't take no big thinking to figure a couple of guys like us ain't in this bananaville on a vacation!"



Fear in the Night (1947)
"I've got an honest man's conscience... in a murderer's body."



The Third Man (Criterion Collection) (1949)
"We should have dug deeper than a grave."



The Asphalt Jungle (1950)
"He hasn't got enough blood left in him to keep a chicken alive."



The Harder They Fall (1956)
"The people, Eddie, the people! Don't tell me about the people, Eddie. The people sit in front of their little TVs with their bellies full of beer and fall asleep. What do the people know, Eddie? Don't tell me about the people, Eddie!"



Murder, My Sweet (1944)
"She was a charming middle-aged lady with a face like a bucket of mud. I gave her a drink. She was a gal who'd take a drink, if she had to knock you down to get the bottle.'



Criss Cross (1949)
"I should have been a better friend. I shoulda stopped you. I shoulda grabbed you by the neck, I shoulda kicked your teeth in. I'm sorry Steve."



Pickup on South Street (Criterion Collection) (1953)
"You'll always be a two-bit cannon. And when they pick you up in the gutter dead, you're hand'll be in a drunk's pocket."



The Night of the Hunter (1955)
"There are things you do hate, Lord. Perfume-smellin' things, lacy things, things with curly hair. "



The Enforcer (1950)
"You think you can shut people up by killing them, but you're wrong. Maybe not in the courtroom but they'll be talkin' to you, Mendoza! At night when you're trying to sleep!"



Railroaded (1947)
"Oh, look what you are doing, ruining my cake. It isn't for you anyway." "Sometimes people put guns in cakes." "How stupid! Who could eat a cake with a gun in it!"



Suddenly (1954)
"Show me a guy who has feelings, and I'll show you a sucker."



Contraband (1940)
"Did you ever try being married? That can be quite a big adventure." "Why do women always say that? Marriage ends adventure." "Why do men always say that?"



Brute Force (1947)
"Those gates only open three times. When you come in, when you've served your time, or when you're dead!"



T-Men (1947)
"How did you find me?" "I could smell you."



All the King's Men (1949)
"You throw money around like it was money."



The Lady from Shanghai (1948)
"The only way to stay out of trouble is to grow old, so I guess I'll concentrate on that."



Niagara (1953)
"Why don't you ever get a dress like that?" "Listen. For a dress like that, you've got to start laying plans when you're about thirteen."



Mildred Pierce (1945)
"When men get around me, they get allergic to wedding rings."



Kiss Tomorrow Goodbye (1950)
"He's too smart for you!" "Oh no, he stopped being smart when he took my money."



Gunman in the Streets (1950)
"Tell you what we do. I got a gun and you got a pretty good idea. We compromise." "How's that?" "We do it my way."



Jail Bait (1954)
'You know sometimes I find plastic surgery to be hard and very, very complicated.'



Mr. Arkadin (1955)
"Baroness, a fool is a man who pays twice for the same thing."



Notorious (Criterion Collection) (1946)
"Say it again, it keeps me awake." "I love you"


Shadow of a Doubt (1943)
"There's one good thing in being a widow, isn't there? You don't have to ask your husband for money."



The Killing (1956)
"You like money. You've got a great big dollar sign there where most women have a heart."



The Shanghai Gesture (1941)
"You said Doctor Omar. Doctor of what?" "Doctor of nothing, Miss Smith. It sounds important and hurts no one. Unlike most doctors."

Sorry, Wrong Number (1948)
"Like me, like you. Come on. Were both acting like a couple of kids playing cat and mouse. Besides, what is a dame like you what with a guy like me?"




Strangers on a Train (1951)
"She was a human being. Let me remind you that even the most unworthy of us has a right to life and the pursuit of happiness." "From what I hear she pursued it in all directions."




Sunset Boulevard (1950)
"There's nothing tragic about being fifty. Not unless you're trying to be twenty-five."




Touch of Evil (1958)
"I didn't recognize you. You should lay off those candy bars." "It's either the candy or the hooch. I must say, I wish it was your chili I was gettin' fat on. Anyway, you're sure lookin' good." "You're a mess, honey."



Borderline (1950)
"All dames will stay in line as long as the payoff is big enough at the end."



Too Late for Tears (1949)
"At the risk of seeming tegus, just were did you stash my cash?" "What do I call you besides stupid?" "Stupid will do if you don't bruise easily."



The Naked Kiss (Criterion Collection) (1964)
"I saw a broken down piece of machinery. Nothing but the buck, the bed and the bottle for the rest of my life. That's what I saw."




Nightmare Alley (1947)
"Everything you say and do is so true and wonderful, and you make it sound so sacred and holy -- when all the time it's just a gag with you. You're laughing your head off at those chumps! You think God's gonna stand for that? He'll strike you dead!"




They Drive by Night (1940)
"Do you believe in love at first sight?" "It saves a lot of time."



Sudden Fear (1952)
"Remember what Nietzsche said - 'Live Dangerously.'" "You know what happened to Nietzsche." "What?" "He died."



Vertigo (1958)
"You shouldn't keep souvenirs of a killing. You shouldn't have been that sentimental."




Experiment in Terror (1962)
"You've got me very well cased -- isn't that the word?" "That's the word."




The Second Woman (1951)
"Let's see what the tea leaves say about you... there's a trick my grandmother taught me; she learned it from an old witch in Ireland." "And so you've been drinking coffee ever since."



This Gun for Hire (1942)
"What's the matter? You look like you've been on a hayride with Dracula."




Cape Fear (1962)
"What I like about you is you're rock bottom. I wouldn't expect you to understand this, but it's a great comfort for a girl to know she could not possibly sink any lower."


Body and Soul (1948)
"Everybody dies. Ben, Shorty, even you." "What's the point?" "No point -- that's life."




A Double Life (1947)
"How's the chicken cacciatore?" "It's in your stomach"




The Big Clock (1948)
"You know, Earl has a passion for obscurity. He won't even have his biography in 'Who's Who'." "Sure. He doesn't want to let his left hand know whose pocket the right one is picking."



They Made Me a Fugitive (1947)
"I believe you. Thousands wouldn't."



Don't Bother to Knock (1952)
"You look so different in those clothes." "I'm different all the time."



Another Man's Poison (1952)
"You asked a pretty question; I've given you the ugly answer."



The Naked City (1948)
"There are eight million stories in the naked city. This has been one of them."



Scarface (1932)
"I told you you'd show up this way. Get you in a jam without a gun and you squeal like a yellow rat. "


Queen Bee (1955)
"You're like some fancy kind of disease. I had it once -- now I'm immune."

Viewing Suddenly tonight

I took the above quote from the Film Noir Software thread and was wondering if anybody else think Powell was better than Bogart as Marlowe? If so or even not, why.






Crawdaddy

That is an interesting question Robert. I can see arguments for both sides of that coin. For contemporary audiences does an actor who is less widely known, or has less iconic status work better in a role where the actor's persona does not overshadow the narrative aspects of the film? (or) Does the charisma and instant recognition an actor like Bogart brings to a role assist the film due to our pre-existing knowledge of the actor?

To draw a parallel to another iconic actor... In the case of Unforgiven, there is no doubt in my mind that Eastwood's presence in the Leone Westerns greatly assisted this much later film in terms of credibility and acceptance and added great weight to the character of William Munny. Does the same equation apply to Bogart as Powell? Or is that analogy flawed because films such as The Big Sleep do not attempt to deconstruct their genre, nor reference the earlier film work of similar characters?

In this case I tend to believe that Powell brings less 'baggage' ( in the best sense of the word ) to the role and consequently does not get in the audience's way in terms of enjoying the storyline of the film. Bogart remains my favorite actor, but I'm 'aware' of him when viewing his works. To be fair, this probably has more to due with my views on noir vs. films in general where less polish and Hollywood production generally is my preference.

- Walter.

Well, Powell does fit the books discription of Marlowe. I think Bogart did his old Sam Spade act instead of acting like Marlowe in The Big Sleep. I think that's why people say that.

I did like Powell, however. His upbeat witty performance was a welcome change (considering I've never seen Murder, My Sweet until last week.)

I really didn't like Murder, My Sweet, and while it's been too long for me to recall all of the reasons, one was definitely that Dick Powell paled compared to Bogart as Marlowe. So that's one vote for Bogie.

I don't really think 'baggage' has anything to do with it, but if so, Powell definitely has more baggage for me. Bogie's other films still have him as a tough guy. Powell is a song and dance man, and I've seen him mostly in musicals or comedies hanging out with the likes of Abbott & Costello, so I'd definitely have a harder time taking him as Marlowe, if I was bothered by 'baggage'.

I think Walter touches on something with the Eastwood parallel. Excuse me if I simplify. I can find no fault in Dick Powell's portrayal of Philip Marlowe, he handles the rapid-fire dialog with ease, and he seems to portray the role effortlessly.

Bogart, I give the edge. Not only, is his performance stellar in the role, his presence is unmatched. He appears weather-beaten, seasoned and melancholy. I have always found Bogart somewhat of poetry to watch. This role, is no different.

VOTE: Bogart


It's a steal at $26. Best Buy had plenty of these.
Also, as samplers, check Best Buy's $7.99 and under section. Quite a few Film Noir titles there. Sub-par to par quality, but an inexpensive way to try some different titles for possible upgrade later.

Edward G. Robinson collection $4.99, which included Scarlet Street.

3 Film Noir Classics (Also included Scarlet Street) $5.99

To my surprise, I was the only one who voted for Murder, My Sweet in our nominations – putting it in the 5 Greatest to boot. I obviously think highly of Powell. At the same time I nominated three Bogart vehicles including The Big Sleep in the Greatest. So I'm really torn.

While Robert initially asked for a direct Marlowe comparison, broader actor comparisons have crept into the discussion, so I thought I'd point out the other excellent Powell noirs: Cornered (1945), Pitfall (1948), and Cry Danger (1951). If you like "hard boiled," I'd have to give the edge to Powell over Bogart. Unfortunately, none of the other three Powell films are on DVD! They've been aired on TCM, but unfortunately are not scheduled through September. The last two are on VHS.

Later, I'll try look up what William Luhr, author of Raymond Chandler and Film, has to say on the Marlowe issue. I know he brings in James Garner, Eliot Gould, and Robert Mitchum as well.