*** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread

Zen, I already decided that I did not understand what was being discussed, after I went back and read more carefully.

Now I'm just going to wait for someone to get to a film.

Lew, it was only in reference to your one question. Reading my poorly written quote(in billboard blue, I might add), it has the appearance that I pinned all six pages on you. I'll improve on my presentation.

If the purpose of this is to compile a list for a film challenge then judging by the results so far, this method is highly flawed. Unless of course you're going for a list for absolute beginners.

What I think would've worked better is if you included Herb's list in it's entirety (which IMO is much more comprehensive, even if it's missing a handful of key films)& have everyone list their top films which were not on that list.

Just my .02 cents.

No apology necessary Zen. I was the one who missed Dave's point. I'm more or less in the 'nothing is noir after Touch of Evil' camp, but I don't really care all that much.

I may go back and change my votes with that in mind.

Jim, sure it's flawed but the top10 alone could induce 10 pages of conversation.

7 - Double Indemnity
6 - Out of the Past
5 - The Killers (1946)
4 - The Maltese Falcon
3 - The Big Sleep
3 - Touch of Evil
2 - In A Lonely Place
2 - The Big Heat
1 - Sunset Blvd.
1 - Raw Deal

Sure looks like an all-star team to me.


SIDE NOTE: In the neo-noir category, few have seen a film in my top20, Alan Rudolph's 1985 film, Trouble in Mind. Fantastic, surreal neo-noir but practical in its' core. May be a bit eccentric for some here, but amazing in its' real dialog, sets and conflicted characters. Not yet available on R1 dvd, but if you see it on tape etc., give it a try.

I hope that isn't the purpose since many of us are already very familiar with film noir have probably already seen those films and probably several times.

Zen,

This list is fine if it's purpose is to merely discuss the top films via consensus.

However if George is compiling a list of films for a challenge similar to the S&S & AFI threads, then it's just not comprehensive enough. For me the fun part of a Film Noir challenge would be discovering for the first time those little known/obscure gems that I haven't seen.

Jim and Robert, I agree with your point(s) fully. It's just been obviously difficult finding the guage. Yes, the top10 are film noir101. Where's the curve though? Lesser known UA films, RKO? Toss out the top20 then, assuming we've all passed that(many times), start somewhere around D.O.A, increasing obscurity from there. The masters of film noir will get lengthy discussion and debate, while some of the intermediates will be graced with discovery.
I think UA and RKO would be a decent cornerstone, thoughts?


I'm looking forward to this part too.

I hope this isn't a "challenge" list either. I know this forum likes to do those, but I've never been good at forcing myself to watch a bunch of movie just clear off a list. I just watch movies when I feel like it, regardless of type.

Discussion would be the way to go I think. Obscure or popular, all these films can be talked about in great length. Enough folks may have gotten tired of this thread already, some big name movies might draw them back, whereas a discussion on Born To Kill won't attract anyone except noirheads. But you guys know this forum far better then I, so you know the way to go.

Here are my choices for George's poll:

5 Greatest
The Big Sleep
Double Indemnity
The Maltese Falcon
The Postman Always Rings Twice
Sunset Boulevard

Although I actually like The Maltese Falcon more, I would put The Big Sleep atop a list of the greatest films noir if only because it feels more "noir-y" to me. It's a little darker and murkier, sleazier even. I think of Double Indemnity and The Postman Always Rings Twice as the quintessential films noir. I don't think Sunset Blvd. is as good an example of film noir as many others I could've listed, but I just love the movie too much to leave it off.

3 Historically Important
The Asphalt Jungle
Body Heat
Chinatown

Here I've decided to acknowledge neo-noir as a style of film separate from film noir proper. Although in discussion I have no problem lumping noir-ish films together in one group, I have to admit that (in my heart of hearts) I don't consider these to be 100% true films noir. I'm not as slavish to a set of rules as some are, but I do think of the "golden era" films noir as the primary examples, with modern noirs being secondary. I may appear to flip-flop on this point from time to time, because I definitely think modern film noir is an essential part of any thorough discussion of the subject.

Chinatown and Body Heat are pretty classic form noir films, and rank among my favorites. However, I'm choosing to call them neo-noir. I think that they are important viewing for noir fans, and are clearly worthy of discussion here.

The Asphalt Jungle is undeniably true film noir, and like Double Indemnity and The Postman Always Rings Twice, I consider it one of the quintessential films noir. Had the first category been 10 Greatest, it would be on my list.

2 Otherwise Interesting
Devil in a Blue Dress
The Big Lebowski

Devil in a Blue Dress is a classical style neo-noir, like Chinatown or Body Heat. The movie is adapted from the first of Walter Mosley's Easy Rawlins mysteries, and stars Denzel Washington. The obvious addition to the classical noir themes is the portrait of racial politics in late-'40s Los Angeles. I recommend it strongly.

I guess The Big Lebowski is the Coen brothers slightly bent love letter to Raymond Chandler. The movie rambles through every film noir convention and cliche, following its decidedly un-noirish laid back protagonist through the seedy underbelly of LA. I think the movie is successful both as a subtle parody of the film noir, and as a semi-reverent tribute to the noir form. Primarily, though, it's a comedy. It also features a sort of musical number, for what it's worth. (On that tangent, searching for non-musical movies where the characters sing in the style of a musical, how about Magnolia? Or even Billy Madison?)

For the "other" category, I considered many other films with varying levels of noir content, like The Long Goodbye, Vertigo, Requiem for a Heavyweight, and the David Lynch noir-like films Blue Velvet, Lost Highway, Wild at Heart and Mulholland Dr.

Well the purpose is for a film challenge, but I'm perfectly happy if I'm the only one who participates. Frankly, I've been in so many challenges, that I don't have time to do something extensive or exhaustive. I figured if I got a list of 50 great/important/etc. film noirs, that whichever ones I hadn't seen would be enough for me. I was fully expecting/hoping I would have seen much of it, cause I don't really have time to add a lot more films to my queue. Everyone else is free to do with the list what they like (or nothing at all). And if anyone wants to take a more comprehensive list and watch them all - you're a better noir fan than me.

Current voting:

Greatest:
8 - Double Indemnity
6 - Out of the Past
5 - The Maltese Falcon
5 - The Killers (1946)
4 - The Big Sleep
3 - Touch of Evil
2 - The Postman Always Rings Twice
2 - The Big Heat
2 - Sunset Blvd.
2 - In A Lonely Place
1 - Raw Deal
1 - Murder, My Sweet
1 - Le Cercle Rouge
1 - Force of Evil
1 - D.O.A.
1 - Chinatown

Important:
2 - M
2 - The Maltese Falcon
2 - Detour
2 - This Gun For Hire
2 - Touch of Evil
2 - The Big Sleep
2 - Body Heat (1981)
2 - Chinatown
1 - The Big Clock
1 - I Wake Up Screaming
1 - You Only Live Once
1 - Laura
1 - Raw Deal
1 - Gilda
1 - Leave Her To Heaven
1 - Key Largo
1 - The Asphalt Jungle

Other:
2 - Blade Runner
1 - The Night of the Hunter
1 - Red Rock West
1 - The Gunfighter
1 - The Roaring Twenties
1 - You Only Live Twice
1 - Pickup on South Street
1 - D.O.A.
1 - Gilda
1 - In A Lonely Place
1 - Sorry, Wrong Number
1 - 99 River Street
1 - Breathless
1 - Branded to Kill
1 - Devil in a Blue Dress
1 - The Big Lebowski


It is true, however, that in the first category, we're not getting enough different films. Therefore, everyone who's already voted, feel free to vote for 5 more greatest only (in other words, your #6-#10), and anyone who hasn't voted to list 10 greatest, along with the 3 important and 2 others. Thanks.

#6 through #10 - ( I'm going to list five films not currently in any of the three lists; the Rosenbaum method as it has come to be known around these parts. )

Mildred Pierce
The Set-Up
Sweet Smell of Success
Kiss of Death (1947)
Scarlet Street

- Walter.

Might as well do my own.

Greatest:

Chinatown
Double Indemnity
The Big Sleep
The Maltese Falcon
Out of the Past

Important:

L.A. Confidential
Body Heat (1981)
Blade Runner

Other:

Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid
Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

So no one else thinks that Memento can qualify as a Noir?
What ingredient is it missing?

Well, now I think it is safe to say we are making the definition of Film Noir a tad broad!

I’ll also take Walter’s approach and list my next 5 that have yet to be listed:

Too Late For Tears (1949)
Narrow Margin (1952)
The Enforcer (1951)
Criss Cross (1949)
Odds Against Tomorrow (1959) – a good one to pull out of your arsenal for those who think noir ceased to exist after Touch Of Evil.

Herb.

Rob... I'm not sayin' a word buddy

Well, thanks for the support Herb!

:wink:

Just watched that again on TCM, a very good flick.

Totally agree, another gem by the great Robert Wise.

Tomorrow, for the first time, I'm going to watch "The Good Die Young" a British made noir starring Laurence Harvey, Richard Basehart, Gloria Grahame, John Ireland, Stanley Baker and Joan Collins. It's playing on TCM on Friday morning at 6:00 a.m. ET.





Crawdaddy

Well I certainly wouldn't call it film noir. But... I did mean for the other category to include films that either pushed the limits in some way (such as a western noir), or that clearly weren't noir, but were related (as in a comic take-off, which Roger Rabbit clearly is).

I keep waiting for someone else to start the discussion on a specific film, because frankly I'm not qualified to do so. However, while we wait, I do have a question.

I just got through watching Roadblock. Unfortunately, I suspect many haven't seen this, so I'll put part of this in spoilers.

My question has to do with the definition, or parameters, of a femme fatale. In Roadblock,
Warning Spoiler! Click to show

In retrospect, I'm not sure if I should put that in spoilers, since we can't really have conversations about specific films without spoilers. But I guess I'm assuming that, unlike many of the others we've discussed, this has been seen by far fewer.

Robert,

I'd appreciate your thoughts about spoiler tags in this thread.

My next five:

Scarlet Street(Herb's pick of Criss Cross made me think of this.)
Rififi
Pick-Up on South Street
This Gun for Hire
Gaslight (be easy on me)


Herb, great pick and the stopping point to the
classic period that I was taught.

Anyone else watch the Out of the Past and The Maltese Falcon doulbe-header on TCM last night?

I hadn't seen Past before. I liked it. I thought Mitchum and Greer were great and had good chemistry together. That being said, I have to say that I enjoyed Falcon more but I must admit I was biased as it's one of my favorites.

-----
quote:
in the first category, we're not getting enough different films. Therefore, everyone who's already voted, feel free to vote for 5 more greatest only
-----
George, this is your list, so you can call the shots. But I personally liked your initial more restrictive guidance. It forced us to be more discriminating – almost painfully so. Plus it was more likely to produce a "consensus" result (which you may not be interested in) compared to allowing additional nominations. I was the one who suggested you keep a running tally of the nominations, and perhaps I am not the only one that sees the number count as the most interesting (and valuable) result of your list. The nomination count tells us as much about ourselves (ie., our characteristics as a particular segment of noir fandom) as the films themselves. That count will be "watered down" somewhat by increasing the nominations.

One other wrinkle: some of us might want to upgrade into the Next 5 titles we originally placed in Important and Other. Would it be too confusing or burdensome to allow such upgrading? Again, you call the shots.

-----
quote:
a discussion on Born To Kill won't attract anyone except noirheads
-----
Great flick to see Lawrence Tierney in his prime! Almost unrecognizable from his appearance in Reservoir Dogs. As your resident troublemaker: Born to Kill has to be one of the most misogynist noirs ever made.

I'll second George's query about spoiler tags. I'm ready to start posting some more film-centric comments but I'm uncertain as to the etiquette of this thread regarding spoilers. Any thoughts on the matter? ( Robert or anyone else. )

Blu - I don't want to restart the discussion of what is and isn't noir ( not after 10 pages - whew! ) I'll just say that Memento is a fine film and a discussion of it in this thread is okay by me.

- Walter.

We now have enough of a variety of films voted for, that I'm going to be closing the first round of voting shortly. So, if you still want to vote, you need to do so quickly. There will be a second round of tie-breaker voting which will start shortly.

Has anyone watched Gun Crazy with the Glenn Erickson commentary? I can't recommend it highly enough.

While I'm on the subject, I have to ask about the other Joseph Lewis noir classic.

How is the A/V presentation on Image's The Big Combo DVD?

Jim, I agree 100%. In my opinion it was the best of the bunch. Glenn was obviously well prepared and he certainly did his homework.



There's one I'm surprised hasn't made the cut yet... The Image disc is decent... on par with many of the average Kino/Roan transfers.

My final votes:

Laura
Sorry, Wrong Number
The Blue Dahlia
The Stranger
Crossfire

Which brings us to the tie-breaking. Basically we have two groups of films, and need to choose some from each group. I'll list the two groups, and ask you to vote for the ones you want. You can vote for as many or as few as you want (you're basically voting against the ones you don't list), but don't vote for all of them, since that would basically be the same as voting for none.

Remember select some from group A and some from group B.

Group A:
Murder, My Sweet
Le Cercle Rouge
Force of Evil
Mildred Pierce
The Set-Up
Sweet Smell of Success
Kiss of Death (1947)
Too Late For Tears (1949)
Narrow Margin (1952)
The Enforcer (1951)
Criss Cross (1949)
Odds Against Tomorrow (1959)
Rififi
Gaslight (1944)
The Blue Dahlia
The Stranger
Crossfire

Group B:
The Night of the Hunter
Red Rock West
The Gunfighter
The Roaring Twenties
You Only Live Twice
99 River Street
Breathless
Branded to Kill
Devil in a Blue Dress
The Big Lebowski
Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid
Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

Thanks Herb,

I haven't seen The Big Combo in years & to tell the truth I remember little about it. After enjoying Gun Crazy so much I figure this would be an easy bet for a semi-blind buy.

I'm really having a blast re-discovering Noir thanks to the Warner box & the Universal discs. It's making me crave more.

How was it Crawdaddy...? It's on my list, but unfortunately I've never seen it. Gloria Grahame...sigh.........