bill cosby criticizes black behavior...

No Kevin, I was simply stating as to when any person might possibly use such sentences. I was giving a random scenerio and speaking from personal experience only.


Totally guilty as charged. I've admitted it continually. More so, out of respect to the majority stance in this thread. A bit "PC" of me huh? Seriously though, I'm well aware of the way "passion" can and has clouded a few of my points. In the twilight of our conversations though, I still have no regrets.

Joe, 3 pages, two sides of the spectrum and our gracious hosts have allowed us to continue. The civility in here despite the differences in opinion have been a most welcome surprise. Sir, I have appreciated yours and
other's honesty.

I agree, this has been a rather adult discussion so far. (sniff) I'm so p..p..proud of you guys.

How in the world can we be PC when we can't discurss politics here? Screw that!

It has been easy for a black (as BC suggests) to cop out and take the easy way out and submit to his/her peers and learn their own kind of English. How has society as a whole reacted against this? What? Not at all?

Why don't I feel safe if I walk through a ghetto? No police? Why should they even have to be there - just as in an upscale neighborhood - the crime should be low at the worst, but it isn't. Of course, now the cops (in some cases) won't even venture into poor neighborhoods. Couldn't you say that it is the police's fault that they let it get out of control in the first place?

What kind of parents don't correct their child's grammar? - Ok, maybe the mom got pregnant at 15, but they should have been in school until then, right? These are the same children that were permitted to pass every grade. Even if their teacher was told to pass everyone why didn't the children KNOW that they'd get farther by using a language that the rest of our country understands?

Kudos to Bill? No, he's about 20 years too late. It would have been just as easy for him to realize where his race (and I use that term loosly) was headed years ago

I am going to lay some of the blame for this on parents, teachers and the police. These are the people that mold young children into responsible adults. Oh, Bill too.

Glenn

See Mods, we can discuss things like adults!!!!


(Damn, and I was just about to start with some good ole' fashioned name calling!!)

Very interesting thread......... I had no intention of weighing in when I began but decided to toss out some thoughts.

I think that we've become a "blameless" society (note our litigious nature). Even those of us who think we live an ethical and morally "clean" life have fallen into a "sue them" mentality. It's gotten to the point where no one seems responsible or accountable for their own actions. It's not the African American community, the poor white community or any sub-community. It's a large section of our entire culture. It has become much easier and socially acceptable to blame someone else for one's ills than to say "my fault" and take steps to correct them.

In my opinion, Mr. Cosby is challenging his community to avoid this trap. Not doing so allows one to "accept their lot" and settle for less than can be accomplished. His message could be directed to all of us and, in my opinion, rightly so. That he is criticizing his community (and I think challenging them) is his well deserved and earned right (see his record so eloquently detailed earlier in this thread).

I think that questioning his delivery or the messenger himself misses the point entirely. Is there a message/challenge in Mr. Cosby's words for all of us? I think so and I think it is time we all ask ourselves if we are doing enough to strengthen ourselves, our families, our communities and our country and to respect the sacrifices of those who've come before us - black, white, hispanic or otherwise.

I hope that the trap that is political correctness allows leaders of all races/ethnicities to get back to speaking the "truth" as they see it. It's called freedom of speech and, right or wrong, the dialog it creates may lead to positive change. We'll have to un-learn the PC training we've had tattooed on our brains and re-learn tolerance and healthy-debate. It's going to take more leaders like Mr. Cosby stepping forward to voice a controversial opinion. For this, I salute him.

Mark

I will give this thread one more chance, but I have to warn you that some of the comments made in this thread have started to offend me and some other members. I have edited out some of those posts and I sincerely hope this discussion can continue without any further incidents.






Crawdaddy

What I posted was offensive?

Wow! Interesting.

Willard, I think Robert simply erased the posts that were made directly in response to the oh-so-enlightened (not!) post linking to the dreadful "white supremacism disguised as intellectual discourse" site. It's not that the responses themselves were offensive, it's just that they would make no sense once the offending post was removed.

Some defend (Cosby) for being "extreme" in his tact and excusing it as some form of wake up call. In its' beginnings, the term "PC", in my camp anyways, was just being more careful with one's words, methods and disposition within dialog and criticism. Which I don't find a a necessarily a bad trait for either side of the spectrum to exercise. Quite honestly, I don't hear much about it anymore, since its' backlash. I only hear about in debate, when one side in particular likes to take cheap shots at another, knowing its' now negative connotations. The movement appears, all but dead and hardly find it a devil or the "beginning of the end." I don't find much to "unwind." In my opinion, there are many more powerful and sinister filters and traps in the world than the PC movement's impact and influence. I'd sure like see some of the same energies applied to more relevant dangers(Of course, not here at HTF). My criticism of Cosby, a very un-PC move I might add, was his disposition and tact mainly. I think by your definition of PC, I would have not spoken a word on the issue and cowered submissively.

Although, both sides and in between have discussed this with some form of tact and dignity. Well, mostly.

Good for him for saying what he thinks is right and not apologizing for it.

Im sick of the angry mob mentality that been going on in this country recently.

I dont think Bills wrong.

That post in question was way off-topic ,not to mention, some our quotes were changed, and was not in the spirit of a once level debate.



I'm not sure that I'm "missing the point." I do agree with you that his words could be a lesson for humans as a whole. Excusing his tone for the message within doesn't make sense to me. The thing is I just don't believe screaming one views on any particular subject, to any particular group as productive. It's proven on a smaller scale when relating to a child. Sure, all that you may be saying is chock full of wisdom and direction, but will your child hear it? When I let my passions get the best of me, when relating to my 16 y/o brother, for who I am legal guardian to, he's not hearing me. It escalates arguments to non-sensical proportions. When I slow it down, tone it down, using the same words I would in a passionate tone, he hears me, understands my wishes, and my intentions. I call this progression. As our relationship is healthy. This isn't a form of censorship, it's re-evaluating one's tact for the betterment of the relationship as a whole.

I'm going to preface this post by saying I'm cauc and about as middle class as you get. I grew up in and around Chicago and my wife is from a pretty poor part of LA (she's half mexican / half ?). So I've seen it, but must admit I've never lived through it (she has.) We've talked about all this stuff though and so I think from those two perspectives we've arrived at some interesting ideas.

For black culture, all I can think is that they (as a whole) are doing the best that they can and it'll take time. You're talking about a group of people that were basically slaves up until the 1960s, we're only two generations past that now. There was a big push and unity to get civil rights, but once you get them what do you do? ie - once you win an objective that consumed you, what do you do after you achieve it (esp. when that objective was freedom your culture had forgot was like?) It's hard, but typically you fall apart a bit before you come to grips with it. After you've dealt with the man keeping you down so long, what do you do once the man is removed? Some folks can adapt and deal, but most find freedom is scarier (and harder) than being under the comfortably known thumb. Again, especially when your parents, grandparents, and great grandparents all lived with an oppressed mindset, it's extremely hard to just drop that mindset overnight. The law says you are free, but your culture still tells you that you're less. Like a battered child who grows up and seeks out an abusive husband. It's easier to stay with what you know than to accept the potential for failure in something you don't know (and it's a way you intuitively understand.) For for a black culture with this kind of problem, if there isn't a "man" keeping you down, invent one. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

So what can you do about that? I don't pretend to know, but it's getting to where something needs to be done to take it to the next step. Maybe better education in schools teaching all our kids how to deal with life better, something more specific to the black community? One thing's for sure, there's no quick answer to a question like this. What I posted above is just an aspect I've thought aobut, don't believe it to be an absolute truth.

Good thread, shocked it can stay on the rails as well as it has.

Discrimination has not been eradicated by the civil rights movement. Unquestionably, amazing strides have been made. But if one were to accept the notion that the mindset of being oppressed continues to exist within the black community, one cannot deny that the mindset of enforcing that oppression continues to exist within the white. To insist on a one sided view is extremely patronizing and false.

Kevin, I didn't get around to responding.

I agree here, with your response to my post to a point. I think it can be part of the cause, if not an excuse in some cases. What causes a person to inflict harm on an innocent human, I think is a far more serious of an issue though than one's lack of employment.
As this issue is close to home, I admit my post was defensive and a bit muddled by my passions toward the issue. I stand by the heart of it's meaning though.

I still take the largest issue to Cosby saying:
"Stop beating up your women because you can't find a job."

It's the "because you can't find a job" that doesn't settle well with me.


It appears, we here are going to take Cosby's comments and their possible effect as a whole. In that, I can agree that maybe as a springboard it may induce some more careful, constructive more thought out dialog.

Dissected line by line though, I feel it's impact and meaning start to decompose.

WillardK wrote (post #73):


Nor will it ever be.


It derives from an ahistorical viewpoint.


I agree with what you mean here, but this statement is, like all modal statements, a non sequitur. Obviously, somebody can make such denials, or this ongoing thread wouldn’t exist.


Joe Szott wrote (post #72):


Uh, maybe---just maybe---it's not just "your" culture.

Hey that's cool and all that but you actually said "it ain't got shit to do with it."...hence my problem with the statement.
I know from personal experience in my family that job/economic frustration can build up until certain people start taking it out on their "loved" ones...it's not an excuse by any means (there is no excuse for this IMO and it happens in both men & women) but it can be a cause if not a root cause...some will say that this violence was always in these individuals character and they were just waiting for an excuse but this is far to simplified to be true in every case because IMO every last one of us have this monster in us, it's just that some keep it under control better than others and those that don't have it in check will snap much easier if frustrations pile up on their emotions. Economics is just high on the list of pressures IMO.

Some of these people are simple bastards I agree but not all of them.

Agreed. Didn't mean for it to sound like a one sided issue, but also you must admit that what a person or culture thinks about itself has much more impact than what others think of it. It's more complicated when they have power over you in some way, but still your own mindset is a greater force on behavior and beliefs.


On a different note, big ups to Cosby for bringing these issues into the light. America is long overdue for revisiting racial and economic issues as a whole (and we need to badly, everyone white/black/whatever.)

You cant be serious! How in hell do you compare black society with a niche white community?

IMO It was about time a black (the cos) gave his race a wakeup call. Of coarse, It will do no good. They will just write his comments off & call him a "uncletom"


they will keep on doing what has been bread into them for generations.

I guess there isn't any more to be said then.







Crawdaddy