bill cosby criticizes black behavior...

This is such a hard subject to comment on. I am not black, nor am I racist, or have any personal problems with any race.

What I do know is that I work in the residential areas of Detroit and Flint Michigan every week. I don't work in the "nice" part of towns that is sure. Many times I take a body guard with me just to watch my back. This is what I see.

On school days I see countless kids playing in the streets, running there mouths with language I didn't even know at that age. On many occasions I have to speak to the parents, but the kids don't even know where the parents are.

Thurs. while in the city of Flint, I witnessed two kids smoking walking down the street, and it sure as all hell wasn't a tobacco based product. Oh by the way, the kids were not any older than 12.

It is so hard not to blame the kids for anything, as it is the parents responsibility to guide the kids in the proper direction.

I could go on all day about stuff I see, but some of it, if you are never in the city of places like Detroit, you probably wouldn't believe it. I am not saying that this doesn't go on in the white or any other community, but I am trying to understand is why it is such a large scale in the black community. From my point of view, once again not being black, Mr. Cosby has some very legitimate points.


Brandon

Cosby's comments, with references to race taken out, could apply to any culture. Somtimes people need to pull up their bootstraps to get what they want.

Kevin beat me to it, there is plenty of white trash for us to worry about.

Isn't it interesting how cults operate in very much the same way sans violence...well most of the time anyway.

Anyone remember when Howard Stern used to be funny?

I agree with those that say it is endemic in society as a whole. I also feel that it is obvious that Cosby is not targetting all African-Americans and that he is attempting to deliver a message from a vantage point of caring about the community he is addressing. In part, at least, our country has achieved its position in the world through hard work, grit, and working toward achievement. Sadly, I think many need to be given a nudge toward working hard to achieve their goals, rather than simply expect that society will somehow accomodate them.

It is unfortunate that racism, agism, sexism...all the isms still make it a harder struggle for some.

Yeah, back in '86 or so when I first started listening to him, before he got thrown off of wnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnbeeeeeceeee, he had a FANTASTIC bit he would do weekly trading insults with urban youts..... 'You mammas so stinky she makes an onion cry'! Those were the days! =)

Sam

I would hope not, especially no one made such a claim. That isn't even remotely the issue. It's about those who do "behave like this".

--
H

Howard Stern was once funny?

What I find most interesting about all of this, is that non blacks feel the need to qualify their opinions on the subject with "now, I'm not racist, but..", or "well, some whites behave this way too" The P.C. police have trained everyone well, haven't they? Watching people remind everyone that "not all blacks are like that", is silly to me. Of course not all blacks are like that, but we all know exactly what segment of the black community Cosby is talking about.

Most feel that they can't even speak their minds freely on this type of issue without being labeled, and that's goes to the heart of what Cosby said.

For the segment of the black community that Cosby is targeting, falling back on the racism card has become the crutch that they rely on. They deflect ANY critisism by yelling "RACIST!!!", but they can't yell that at Cosby.

So as a result, this becomes a BIG controversy.
What did Cosby say that wasn't true? What did he say that was so controversial?
Nothing.
His comments were as obvious as saying "If you keep going outside in the rain, you're gonna be dripping wet!"

But, his targets have been tip toed around for so long, that people are treating it like he was the first man to proclaim the world isn't flat. GASP!!!

See, the way I see it, is if you really are looking out for the betterment of your race, you would call them on their bullshit. Much like if you have a drug addicted friend. You can ignore the problem until he self destructs, or you can say something to him, and try to get him on the right track.
That's all Cosby is trying to do, and it's what we all should do. But the politically correct crowd would rather let their friend die, before they might say something that could offend him.

Bravo, Mr. Cosby, for doing your part. Hopefully your words will sink in, and one day the people you are speaking to, will enjoy a better quality of life.

I'm gald to see Mr. Cosby taking this up. The leaders of this community have failed them miserably.

Especially the Rev. Jackson and his Love Child. Kind of hard to talk about taking accountability when you yourself are guilty of child abandonment. The African American community needs a new generation of leaders that is seperated from the current crop which generally have little credibility. Where these leaders will come from is the question.

J

Before Cosby was a comedian, he was a great drama actor. One of my favorite shows in the 1960s was "I spy" starring Cosby and Robert Culp. Cosby won the best actor Emmy award THREE YEAR IN A ROW for that show....

Very well said Joe, and I am one of those that qualified my statement by saying that I am not black. I guess in reality it shouldn't matter, but in today's society it does.

B.

I know that Holadem but I felt I should offer that up before someone came in and tried to take things out of context....that happens quite a lot with subjects as charged as this.

Brandon, I hope you understand that I didn't design my post as a jab at those who qualified their statements, but more as an observation on the rules that American society has now put in place for caucasians.

It's the most widely accepted and unchallenged form of censorship of that I can think of.

No Joe, I understood exactly what you meant and agreed 100%

JamesED wrote (post #33):



"White trash".

I don't think starting a sentence with "I'm not racist, but..." qualifies as much of anything more than an Ignorant bullshit about to spew from my mouth warning. Nor have I heard any activists use such a group of words. Normally, what follows those three words out of most peoples mouths makes me cringe. But the "PC Police" for which you address and label, may/might use statements like "well, some whites behave this way too" and "not all blacks are like that" to simply counter or quell the fact that many a ignorant tongue like to fuse behavioral issues and race. Think for second as to when a person would use such quotes. I have used similar many times when a person, not of the spoken community offers his/her rant on the state of such a community. Or when non-blacks offer their supposed wisdom on what the problem is within a particular group. Normally started with "You know, them...+INSERT IGNORANT SHIT HERE+ Or "I'm not racist, but you know what the problem is with...is don't you?..." Usually, shady racial comments are not far behind and personally, instead of socking them in the mouth, like the old days, I just find a way to shut them up or divert the conversation. I swear, some days I look around and marvel at how much we have progressed, only to have it completely deflated by someone's trap. What really hurts, is that a lot of times these are cats way younger than I.

The fact that there is corruption, white-collar crime, successful men alienating their children, infidelity and on down the line also within this (Black) community. I'm suspect to actually who Cosby is speaking to here?


He(Cosby) really has an issue with slang though huh? "You can't be a doctor using language like this" I bet you some can. Professionals in many areas turn off their slang tongue daily while at work. I find business "we'll do lunch" slang way more irritating.


Elaborate please.



I think Rev. Jackson made more sense and impact in a few lines. "Bill is saying let's fight the right fight, let's level the playing field," Jackson said. "Drunk people can't do that. Illiterate people can't do that."

Cosby said:

Anyone who has experienced domestic abuse knows, employment doesn't have shit to do with it. Well employed parents/spouses don't seem to have a problem beating their counterparts. Senseless violence on the innocent has no economic boundaries.



Sounds like a typical teenager. You can substitute N@gga with "dude", "fool" "idiot" "bro" "bitch" to just about cover teenagers worldwide. Oh no, here come the laughing, giggling teenagers. They're doomed!

Zen,
Though, progress has been made, we're not nearly as progressive with race relations and tolerance as some might have us to believe.







Crawdaddy

Robert, I fully agree with your statement and think my quoted quote demonstrates that.

What, I wasn't backed far enough into a corner?


To all, even though my views are in the minority, I'm thoroughly enjoying our respectful exchanges.

I would add for clarity:

Does Cosby have more of a right to challenge his communitie's behavior than I do to refute it? Sure

Do I have the right to refute the tact in which he uses?: Probably not. His generalizations though are evident.




IMO, apples and oranges. The point that many in black community haven't spoken up and "spoke their minds" on questionable behavior within its' community is way different than some PC "rule" on American Caucasian society allegedly prohibiting or making it uncomfortable for him/her to speak on another's communitie's behavior. It should be uncomfortable.

Well, I'll agree that sometimes when a person starts off with "I'm not black, but..", they are about to say something completely racist. However, these aren't the people I was refering to. I was refering to a person who mearly has an obervation about an issue within the black community, being conditioned to feel racist for simply offering an opinion.
I completely disagree with you about not being able to comment on a community that you're not a part of. That mentality is the same type of conditioning that I was refering to. It's become a patented response in these types of discussions, and I don't accept it. I don't think that anyone here is fusing behavioral issues and race, but discussing the behavioral issues that have become a sad reality to a certain portion of the black community. There is a difference, and it's easily understandable.

For instance...
I know that teenage pregnancy, with absent fathers is wrong. Black or White.

I know that drug dealing is wrong. Black or White.

I know that substance abuse is wrong. Black or White.

Do I need to continue here?
Wrong is wrong in any color. But Cosby wasn't talking about any color, he was talking about a segment of the black community. So that is where I choose to continue the discussion.



See, again, what is it that drives you to divert the discussion from what Cosby was addressing, to something else? Why is it so hard to just discuss the issue that Cosby was addressing, without adding "Well, white men...".
There are men across the board (Cosby included) who conduct themselves in less than admirable fashion, and we are all aware of it.



If you have to "turn it off" then you're not being a doctor using language like that. So, you've just made his point. And besides, he's not talking about slang, he's talking about people who have little to no grasp on the English language. So much so, that they would never be taken seriously in a job interview. This hurts their chances for success and prosperity. Why is it wrong to address that?



No. This type of stuff goes back to my previous post, and I refuse to play those P.C. games. And if you *really* don't know who he (and I) was refering to, then how can you legitamitely comment on what he has said?



Agreed 100%.




Agreed if you want to take that statement at face value. But that is just part and parcel of the bigger problem that he was addressing.

No games at all. This has been a large part of my initial question. On just who is he directing his comments to.(Besides the obvious) And I gave fine examples, Cosby's actual quotes, that draw quite a picture of his generalizations.



My quote for which you responded:


Please don't lump me in with some non-directional feel-good group. There is absolutely no "well, white men..." diversion in my above quote. It was an attempt and a plea for clarification. To me, he speaks of betterment but seems to be addressing few of the issues and had evident anger toward a specific sect, for which I'm unable to be 100% sure of, despite the corruptions across the board. Read my posts within the thread, they are hardly divert anything. My inquisitions have been hardly meek. Which I have never been accused of that.


I think the fact that we are even having this exchange challenges this stance. Although, I do feel I, speaking for myself only, have way overstepped my bounds.



This is becoming more of a discussion of our rights as non-members of a community rather than what Cosby's comments suggest. It appears (or soon will) to be approaching some inaapropriate bounds(HTF bounds). I will call it a day Joe, and respect your responses. I truly hope Cosby's rage sparks the spark and that his own community would enrich it even further. He raises some important issues for all humans to address.

i disagree. unfortunately, when i say something like that, i feel i have to "protect" myself against someone (these days just about anyone) jumping the gun and labelling me as such. you just *know* that someone is gonna take it the wrong way. how about all the gangsters and drug dealers, the ones robbing the innocent victims, the ones carrying guns to school, the ones doing all the violent crimes, blah blah blah. it should be obvious he's not talking about the ones going to universities and getting their law degree.

i will say this again, and i think it's very important to remember. cosby's criticisms have no racial or cultural boundary. the things he talks about can happen to anyone, anywhere. people are people are people...

what i think cosby is trying to do is give a rude awakening to the african american community -- simply because he is one. again, i truly believe he's trying to do the right thing....but maybe the execution is less than perfect.

You're right Zen, it is a human issue, and I guess that's why I take issue with the concept that only certain humans have the "right" to comment. I wish for the betterment of ALL of the human race, but (in the case of Cosby) that sometimes means being harsh with one's comments, because too often the soft voice goes unheard.

You are also right in that I may have derailed the original post, and for that I apologize.

Some things needed to be said and I can think of no better man for the job than Bill Cosby.

Remember 'Picture Pages'? Some Saturday morning (if memory serves) program that featured Bill Cosby and his book of Picture Pages that you could buy and work along with him and his educating the youth of America? Not just blacks? Bill Cosby has taught me every bit as much as he has taught those children of his color. I think this is simply an extension of those teachings.

What Cosby is bitching about isn't that many black kids are a bunch of garbage-talking, gold chain-wearing, crooked-hat attired do-nothings. He's bitching about the fact that their motherfucking GOAL is to be a bunch of garbage-talking, gold chain wearing, crooked-hat attired do-nothings. He's taking a rigid tough love stance toward this because he remembers the struggles that activists fought through to get us moving in a less than barbaric state of mind regarding our brothers of alternate color. He is seeing all of the pain and tears and defiance and clawing that worked to ultimately progress our nation being swept right back into the gutters, and worse than any horror imaginable in the time of the Rosa Parks, he is seeing it come to pass because OF a few people of color and their collective attitude. No wonder he's pissed. Who would have thought that the greatest setback in the modern day battle for activism and total equality would come from some of those that benefit from it the most?! I am certain that Cosby feels like Charlton Heston, waking up on the beach and seeing the chimp on top of the pony. WTF is happening to us?!

When approximately fifty percent of the PRISON population comes from 15 percent of the GENERAL population, you have a systemic and cultural behavior problem. It is a problem that must be addressed by all of us, not just people of color. Because ultimately it brings us all down. We are all in this together (despite what a few racists to date have to say about it). It's high time we all gave ourselves (black, white, red, yellow, green (well, if your green, I draw the line--get the hell off my planet!) and all the rest) a swift kick in the ass and turn the mirror around and take a real hard, long look in it.

Yes, there was a time, not so long ago, when people of color were oppressed. Regardless of what some people want to posit those times are nearly gone. Certainly it exists in areas throughout this country to date, but nowhere near enough that it holds anyone back, color be damned, if that person only wants to succeed. It is time to put the bullet proof existence of racism down and pick up your baggage and begin to take responsibility for your own life.

Look at many Korean families that come to this country, families intact, and in seven years or less speak the language fluently, have prosperous businesses and have their children outscoring white and black kids on college entrance exams. What an embarrassment! And this is all because they didn't look at failure as an option. To succeed is to survive. There are lessons to be learned here.


Crawdaddy, my friend, even you miss the point. The death of racism will not fall into your lap, ever. This is what The Martin Luther King's and The Rosa Parks' and many other activists understood back in the 60's and it has been all but forgotten today. The death of racism is a very sweet fruit that resides at the top of a very tall tree. This is a tree that we have stopped climbing. Who is there to take King's place on this tree and begin again climbing to the top? Where is this person or people? Reverend Jackson? Pfft! Sharpton? Well, I think he's more sincere than Jackson, but I still feel queasy having mentioned their names in the same paragraph as King. So would the real King replacement kindly stand up?

Stop bitching and grab a branch, brother.

And before anyone dares shake their fist at the white man in this new millennia, I would like you to take a look at him...

Here I am, an Anglo American SOUTHERN white male, quite possibly the most oppressed race in this country today. I had nothing to do with what went on in the past, yet I am to blame for it, and everybody's asshole. Women think I am offish and horny. Black people think I am oppressive and physically inferior. Gays think I am blatantly macho and homophobic. Asians think I am fat, lazy, and stupid. You've got an axe to grind? I'm fuckin' Paul Bunyan over here! --Dennis Miller

Stand up. Stand beside Cosby, or make your own stand. Let's get Americans up and give them all a swift kick in the ass and let's get this tired sordid affair (racism) behind us. Because I hate to be the one to keep pointing this out, but there are those in this world that hate you not because of your color, but simply because of your geographic location, because of your beliefs, and because of the people we call allies.

...or you can just shut the hell up and stay out of the way. Let me and Cosby do it all.

Peace

No kidding, I would never have came to that conclusion.

If you believe that then I have no further comments to make in this thread!





Crawdaddy

perhaps in my typing haste, and in retrospect, 'oppressed' wasn't the correct word. What I should have suggested here was that White men today are probably the most stereotyped.

But I think the majority of you got my meaning.

Chris, as a mid-30's black man and fellow Georgian, the words you spoke above are almost poetic to me, not to mention a sharp and clear ring of truth.

Now I'm not going to pretend that I totally understand what your point was in saying this but I will ask you this, are you saying that "some white people" don't behave in a simular manner and that all black people are like this or are you saying that anyone who makes these statements are just banging the "PC" drum?
Or are you saying that the need to make such qualifying statements is a sign of how little we have come in discussing these subjects openly no matter what race we might belong to (human for me, but..)?

In my case these statements were made from personal experience and to preempt people who simply want to take statements such as these and blow them up into pointless side arguments.
If not a genuine criticism (and frankly I find it just as presumptuous to assume "PC" motivations as it is for me to assume some people just want to fight) then IMO it is just common "Netbickering" that you can find in any teen chat room.

But as I said, in any topic as charged as this it is hard to keep one's passions in check while discussing.

The only real problem I had with one of your opinions Zen was this one..
Now economics may not be the only impetus for domestic abuse but it certainly can be one of the causes.