bill cosby criticizes black behavior...

anyone hear about this?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/07/01/cos....ap/index.html

looks like cosby is again chastising african-americans for their behavior.

personally, i congratulate him. although his execution isn't perfect, definitely not subtle, and can really be pointed at any race, i think he drives home some good points. the problem is...how can you tell an entire culture they need to stop their negative behavior?

oh ... and before anyone says it ... i'm not a racist or anything like that.

[edit] would a mod mind fixing my obviously poor spelling in the title?

In Before Ted Lee.....

lol. hmm...guess i didn't think this would violate the religion/politics rule. oops. :b

mods, obviously delete if you think this is inappropriate. sorry about that!

OK, but I'm leaving the faulty capitalization, which Mr. Cosby probably wouldn't approve of either.

M.

"I didn't say no filth, flarring, filth. You can tell Bill, I said to have a coke and a smile and shut the f@ck up!"-Eddie Murphy quote (to air it out in here a bit)


My opinion: Sorry, but I find Bill a bit off the mark. Who designated him the watchdog of an entire culture or race, for that matter?

Fact: Many of my african-american friends find his comments a bit offensive. Kind of a "Where the hell is he coming from?" type of attitude.

Fact: Other than that, not really my place to comment further.


Fact: Boy , are we barely in bounds or what? Damn you the Ted, my friend

Bravo, Mr. Cosby.

even though he may have the right idea, it's not the best way to go about getting your message across. howard stern said it best this morning. "anyone remember when bill cosby used to be a comedian?"

CJ

He's not designating himself the watchdog of anything. He has an opinion, and he expressed it. He has as much a right to say what he said as you do to refute it. And being part of the culture in question, I would think he's qualified to comment on any aspect of it he cares to.

I don't live in America, so I have no idea how accurate his words are. But I'm pretty appalled people are saying he has no right to say what he said. Political correctness will kill us all yet.

Ricardo, I like you, but please don't combat my quote, which was only opinion, with a rights issues. Trust me bro, if you knew me, you'd know you're up the wrong tree.

No one is denying Bill Cosby any rights. I offered two lines of personal opinion than a mere observation of the backlash that he is receiving within the "culture in question." As you word it.

And I wisely ended it with:


Still not, and am done.

And he's out of bounds! and I'm out of this thread.

Take care man.

I agree with what Cosby is saying. More such critical self examination is needed within the black community. There's too much abdication of personal responsibility.


I'd say he's coming from the viewpoint of someone who is sadden and angered by the self-generated problems he sees among his fellow blacks.

Zen, you said he was off the mark, and asked who appointed him "watchdog" of his community/culture/race. I'm sorry if I jumped the gun, but to my puny lil brain, that certainly seemed like a polite way of saying "He has no business saying that". I apologize for any misunderstandings where your post is concerned, but I stand by my general opinion: I'm appalled by the fact that some people feel Mr. Cosby is out of line and should shut up about this particular issue.

He may be right, but it's so much easier said than done. How do you break out of an environment that you are an integral part of yourself? If you try, you are likely to be criticized by "your own" and you will still face racial bigotry from time to time, no matter how hard you try to conform. I think this will leave most blacks (or members of any other ethnic group) who try to break the pattern, with a feeling of belonging nowhere.

Let me speak from my own experience: I'm hispanic. I speak English very, very well. You can barely detect an accent. And because of that, I've been accused of "selling out". Of "wanting to be white". As if mastering a foreign tongue means I'm somehow "betraying my roots". To those people, I simply say: "Fuck off".

I'm not abandoning my own cultural heritage for being able to speak proper English, and for not using the hideous "spanglish" slang so many of my English-speaking peers use. Since when is "speaking broken English" a cultural trait to be cherished and perpetuated?

If "my people" want to be walking, talking stereotypes, then so be it. But they had better stay out of my way. Remembering where I come from doesn't mean I have to embrace the negative aspects that for one reason or another, have taken root in my community. Fear of backlash should never stop anyone from reaching their full potential.

He must be feeling guilty over another affair. Usually when people start to get preachy there's a reason. This is what the second time in less than two months?

Ricardo, I'm responding because I respect your response in post#13. Although I don't agree with all of it. I think dialog is good when constructive and would encourage a PM exchange. I refuse to say what I do, but let's say I work (a lot) within the community. Bill Cosby is not only a childhood hero of mine, but of many, of which he bashes. There is a fine line between reprimand and hateful, for which my comment "misses the mark" referred to, his tact. Although the above Eddie Murphy quote was inserted for humor by me, I think Mr. Murphy was genuinely offended and hurt by Cosby's comment and critique of him. Basically, dismissing him of any talent. Parallel that with others who grew up with him, making them laugh and lightening the load of life's trials. Then have that man bash you and their parents, and dismiss them as they haven't progressed. I bet it's a bit crushing. Building self-esteem this isn't. His frequent outbursts are general and poisonous. Not to mention, hurtful to individuals and the body as a whole.

Even if you are part of a particular culture, making generalizations about an entire culture is never appropriate in my opinion. That being said, Cosby was not inditing his entire culture, but instead the excuses and behavior which keeps a portion of his culture in their current situations.

The African American community (particularly in inner cities and other depressed areas) does need to re-examine itself and begin to hold itself accountable for the current situations. This is easier said then done, as most of the individuals that do escape the environment, do not return home to serve as leaders or roll-models. (Can't really blame them as no one wants to live in an environment of fear intimidation and depression if not necessary)

Poverty is perpetual throughout certain segments of the community, and schooling can only go so far if behavior is not reinforced at home. Being a firm believer in cultural relativity, I am not stating inner city culture/speech is incorrect, just incorrect for being successful in an America dominated by business.

Kudos to Mr. Cosby for taking a stand when so many others remain silent and indifferent. At the very least he has opened up a dialogue from which critical thought and positive results may eventually spring.

J

I came from poverty and the inner city, so of course, I am sympathizing. Let me be clear in that, I don't feel all of what Cosby has said is void of any truth. I take issue with his tact and demeanor. That is where I feel he is being a bit irresponsible.


Justin, let's hope so. Then maybe the rest of the world not far behind? Only a thought.

A lot of people are arguing over whether Cosby has a point or whether he's a jerk. Why can't he be both?

True. An ad hominem attack on Cosby does nothing to invalidate his point.

No one says it's easy. His point is still valid.

Bill is doing the right thing, imho he's trying to help his disenfranchised community outside the veil of political correctness. Instead of blaming everyone but yourself mentality that seem to permeate our culture, he preached the pull yourself up by your bootstrap mentality.

Ricardo_C I can definitely relate as I'm half German/Japanese hear similar comments. One of my childhood friend was criticised for speaking proper English, liking heavy metal (he liked all music types but just liking metal...), and being light skinned had it harder than I did. I think that every community needs to do a self evaluation and have brave members such as Bill.

One thing that should be mentioned, of course, is that Cosby is one of the greatest investors in his community (period). When people talk about those in the community who give back, Cosby is right up there. His donations have helped keep black colleges alive, and his promises to put them on the air by having several "Cosby Show" episodes happen there were more marketing then they have received in years.

Cosby's work in the educational community, outside of Electric Company, etc. but his work in narrating videos about the civil rights movement, and the fact that he worked hard in his early career to fund black artists.

He sponsors more scholarships in the black community then almost anyone else. He has helped fund films (when Spike Lee ran out of money making "Malcolm X" Cosby donated to the tilt to keep the production going), television, and other works geared at providing jobs and an effort.

I've listened to Cosby give multiple speeches, and he says something I hear a lot from people who fought those battles: remember what they were fought for.

A few years ago, at the Negro League Museum here in KC, one of those originally in the league (not Buck) gave a speech about his concerns for how far people had come from those days, and how important it was not to fall back..

The argument he made was: "A lot of us survived a lot of swords and arrows and we said to them: we are better then this, and we will prove we can be as good as you'" his argument was that too many in the league were falling back to playing out stereotypes.. now, I'm not saying he's right or wrong, I'm saying there are a lot of people who do feel that way.

I have spoken to the people who were there are Brown V. Board of Education, in Topeka.. I know someone who was involved in helping desegregate those schools. I've seen where they had a vehicle shot up. They gave a wonderous speech at a school in Topeka last month and hammered on the point that she was never as dissapointed as she was to see young Black children not take the most advantage of what had been provided for them.. at one point she issued this challenge (paraphrased) - "Do better then those that came before you, and remember all of us culminated in you, to offer you the best.. don't give up and go back to what we fought to prove we are not."

It's not enough for one person to want to break out of a self-destructive holding pattern. The entire community must work together to break out of that vicious cycle. At the very least, the young generation must work hard to better themselves.

An example. For many years, French Canadians were seen as only able to hold menial jobs, unable to carry out management responsibilities. And for the most part, this was actually true. Many parents were not encouraging their children to pursue higher education, obliging them to get factory work the moment they can legally do so.

it wasn't until the second half of the sixties that young French Canadians finally decided to do something about their state of affairs. There have been a few rough moments along the way (Charles de Gaulle's infamous "Vive le Québec Libre" speech, the October Crisis, two referendums), but today's French Canadian population is nothing like the population from fifty years ago. We are better educated, have better jobs, own and run large corporations, have our own legitimate and highly popular cultural institutions... We still have a few poblems with poverty, but no one is ever called a sell-out for wanting to better themselves and lead honest lives. Today, it's expected of them.

In my opinion, the African American community needs to experience their own "quiet revolution" where the young people examine themselves closely and finally realize they don't need to live out their lives in poverty, violence and anger. Cosby reminded everyone of the Civil Rights movement of the fifties and sixties and the level of violence experienced back then when African Americans first tried to better themselves. And although much progress was made over the years, now the focus must be aimed towards themselves.

Bill Cosby's problem isn't necessary the message he wants to deliver. The problem may be the way he delivers it. I haven't heard his latest speeches, but based on the news articles, it appears he's yelling out his opinion very loudly and with much anger. When someone is yelling at you, you tend to shut them out.

I totally agree with Cosby's observations. A lot of Blacks are pissing away opportunities that those who came before them died for.

Don't call me racist, because I am not, but I do think Bill Cosby is definitely right! I notice that a lot of African American kids around where I live are just like what Bill describes. Sure, he definitely isn't talking about the whole culture, but just look at a lot of the blacks in urban areas.

If you walk around my high school, you'll see what Bill is talking about. Quite a few of the black kids are always in trouble, speak horrible English, never do their homework, and cuss all the time.

One thing Bill said that I really agree with is the use of the "n word". I hear it all the time in modern-day rap/hiphop and when black kids are talking to each other. I don't understand why the black kids don't get upset if they use it in a conversation with another black kid. If that word is so offensive to the black community, why do they continue to use it?

Bill is just upset with the downfall of black culture. He really wants to see the whole community pull together and improve things. I would definitely like to see that too. I applaud Bill for having the courage to express his opinion and not worrying about the backlash.

The same criticism can be pointed at white "red-neck" culture which in it's worst moments is every bit as violent, vulgar, uninformed & uneducated as any other "color", the only real difference is that instead of Rap you have Country music playing in the background.


Generalizations much but you get the point, IMO we're talking about economic, cultural* and educational deficiencies here, totally regardless of race.


* cultural in that quite often if a black person tries to rise above the more rude/vulgar aspects of "Black" Culture (I.E. swearing etc.) they are considered an Uncle Tom. I've personally overheard this happen quite a lot in my life and the underlying hate/resentment that inspires it is sad to hear.

chris beat me to it. i wanted to mention that (from what i've heard) bill is a staunch black activist. i know, deep in his heart, he's trying to do the right thing. i think maybe he could use some tact, but can you blame the guy? it often seems that, with the type of folks he's trying to reform, that it takes "tough love" for them to stand up and listen.

i suspect bill takes violence quite personally. wasn't his son killed by carjackers or something?

i absolutely agree with his viewpoints though. the kids and parents he's yelling at *do* need to take a close look. they're creating, following, and perpetuating their own stereo-type ... and it's not a positive one.

these kids think that being in a gang, having a bad-ass attitude, and generally being a "hoodlum" is a good thing! they feel they're helpless, down and out, with nowhere to go and no opportunities ahead of them.

yes, i'm generalizing, but only a little. in the grand scheme of things, i think what cosby is doing is okay by me.

Redneck culture is not particularly esteemed, however WASPs who choose not to embrace it are not called 'Toms' 'Sellouts' 'Wanabees' 'Oreo's' or other derogatives. They are not ostracized. Nor do country music videos glamorize the negative aspects of redneckhood (did I just make up a word?).

I have seen the black community struggle with this issue. I have opinions, however not being black I keep them to myself. I view this like a family fight at my neighbors; none of my business.

I do like BC - Long live the Chicken Heart that ate New York City!

edit:
LOL!!!

I know I don't have to say this but I felt I should, (in regards to "black" culture statements) I personally do not believe that all of african american culture behaves like this. It is made to seem that way in the hip-pop culture popularization (I.E. commercials, music, movies, videos) but there is an infinite diversity in any group of people.

Perhaps not but then again "red necks" have not been made to feel anywhere near as disenfranchised as the black population so they have no need to distrust "white" culture...obviously.

I won't dispute that point, I have to agree that celebrating the worst we can be as if it were virtue is pretty self destructive, but I'm not really talking about "country" culture as much as the poor & uneducated and I still see more similarities than differences when comparing the two.

I agree with much of what Cosby had to say nonetheless.

The best point Cosby made was about the excuses certain black males make about why they are down on their luck or in jail.

In many lower class African-American families, the father figure is absent by the situation. This is either due jail time, skirting of parental responsibilities, death, or any of a number of reasons/excuses. Mothers are the center of the household and are many times left to raise the children on their own. I respect these mothers dearly, but many just can't give their sons the kick in the butt they need, especially when they near the teenage years and become bigger/stronger than their mothers. With no father figure as a role-model to emulate and poor living conditions, these young males turn to gangs/drug dealing lead by males which give them that father figure they never had and the enticement of a "better" life.

J