Do yo ubelieve in vaccinations for your baby/toddler?

Plus, if you the parent has never had chicken pox, then vaccinating the kid may be the best bet. Chicken Pox is so contageous that its hard for everyone in the house NOT to get it if one person has it...

Chicken pox although generally mild in children, can be a SERIOUS FRIKIN' Problem for adults... ESPECIALLY MEN.

Anybody know, is the chickon pox vaccine approved for adults? I've never had them, I wonder if I should get it?

I have not read this entire thread, but as a pediatric nurse, Please get your children immunized! I do not wish to start a disertation on vaccinations!

Angelo, thanks for taking the time to respond. I appreciate your expertise. You're absolutely right. It's a generalization I shouldn't have made. My doctor did this to me, and I know of one other person whose doctor did this to her - both from the same clinic. These are, I confess, the only two incidents I know of. And even though I have first-hand experience with both of these incidents, they are still merely anecdotal and shouldn't be used in any way as evidence of what behavior can be expected of doctors in general. I was, as you say, way off base, and I apologize for the unfair generalization. Nevertheless, I urge parents to do the best they can to ensure that the doctors they choose are truly looking out for the best interests of their children. If I had taken the time to find a doctor more like you or one of your colleagues, then my life would be filled with far less regret.

-Brian

Brian:

No hard feelings at all. I appreciate your taking the time to reply. I hope I didn't come across as being pedantic or rude.

You are absolutely correct when you write that parents need to be vigilant with respect to the health care that their children receive. "Trust but verify" is my motto.

I sincerely hope that your child is doing well.

--Angelo, M.D.

Thanks, Angelo. As for your other points, I concede to your greater expertise.

And, in case I wasn't clear before, I am strongly in favor of immunization - not just for the health of the child, but for the health of society as a whole. Please pardon me if my tendency to dwell on what I could have done to make things different has the effect of clouding my ability to express myself clearly on the subject.

BTW, the researchers that had started the latest "controversy" over the whole vaccinations thing have recanted thier research. A paper had raised the possibility that autisim could be linked with vaccinations.

Researchers recant on vaccinations

I'm glad to see reason and common sense prevailing in this thread over superstition and hysteria.

We've had some good discussion - lopsided, but still pretty good.

As with all research, you have to weigh the source. I trust out MD but I also realise that she was trained under a certain school of thought...so as a consumer of her services we have the right to question/challenge anything we want. Not just go blindly into every recommended procedure because it's the "standard" thing to do. For example, if we have a boy we won't have him circumcised.

We will continue discussions about what are the must-have vaccinations and what we can pass on. We will also research how long we can wait before administering vaccinations...ie, spacing them out. At this point I don't feel comfortable pumping a 6 week all baby with everything under the sun.

Thanks for everyone's input.

my 2 and 3 year old are both vaccinated. I wouldn't take a chance on their health.

That is certainly your right as a parent, however, have you researched the subject and are you aware of the increased risk of penile cancer (which is almost unheard of in circumsized men) for uncircumsized men and boys?

While I was in my last year of high school, a measels outbreak hit Salina Kansas.. realize, this was the early nineties, not the 1940s.. the entire town was quarantined, and no one was allowed in or out.

It always stuns me the lack of immunization.. Yes there is some discomfort to it. But the risk factor of getting one of those disease, and more importantly, allowing host bodies in which it can mutate or change (which represents a risk to the common health) is such that it should be common sense

don´t you think that this rather depends on your cleaning habits? Here in Germany nobody is circumsized except for some religious groups and there is no increased cancer rate that I know of. I would hate to have that operation done on me without asking me first!

delete

>>are you aware of the increased risk of penile cancer (which is almost unheard of in circumsized men) for uncircumsized men and boys<<

Haha...I knew this would kick of another debate.

Circumcision in the US is perpetuated more for cosmetic reasons...that is well known. Go to just about any developed nation outside of the US and you will find that circumcision is hardly if ever performed. So no, I don't buy that old nonsense about increased penile cancer. Again, just because something is standard does not make it the right thing to do.

I know of a seasoned doctor from Sweden who was in the US doing some brief work and mentioned that it was her first time seeing a circumsized male during her visit. Wow.

One of the byproducts of "aesthetic" circumcision is an almost 100% elimination of penile cancer. How is this "old nonsense"?

http://www.healthcentral.com/library...ent.cfm?id=454

http://www.healthcentral.com/centers...r=circumcision

There are -some- benefits to Circumcision, which cannot be denied.

But, whether or not those benefits are significant enough to merit doing it is the debate.

Let's put it this way:

There are health benefits to never getting a piercing or a tattoo.. but cosmetically, some people want it, and the risk factors are weighed.

There are health benefits to having your tonsils removed. But, there are also risks with doing it too.

As a religious matter, circumcision will always be around. As a health benefit it does have some. But it is also associated with some risks as well. The parents who make that decision weigh all of this and reach their conclusion.

This having bee said, the one negative of the debate is that in some ways, it is used to make people feel as though they were "missing out" if they were circumcised, which is largely not the case, as nerve tissue and the sensory input you get from them, develops differently in both those who have had the procedure and those who have not, so it's hard to say there is a comparison that is valid.

But lots of people get vehement on both sides.

The removal of the foreskin is a surgical procedure that carries a risk of haemorrhage, infection and mutilation.

There is a one in 500 risk of serious complications.
Once the foreskin is removed, the glans, or head of the penis is no longer protected from urine and faeces, and small ulcerations can form around the urinary opening.
Circumcision is also associated with a loss of sensitivity in the penis.

It was thought that babies felt no pain during circumcision as they had immature nervous systems. However, research has shown that babies do experience physical and psychological stress, both during the operation and for hours after.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/227074.stm - "Circumciosion has little value"

================================================== ==
AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS:

AAP Rules Out Routine Circumcision:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/288916.stm

Chris

EXACTLY! If a parent wants or doesnt want their kid to have ANY medical proceedure, it's their choice... But they should be aware of the risks and benefits.

As far as the political arguments, I certainly don't feel I'm "missing" anything... No more than I feel I'm missing my Placenta. I don't have any anger or remember any pain... My wife and I had the discusion before he was born... Neither of us are particularly tied to the ceremonial aspects of religion, so that wasn't a factor. I was nonetheless all for it, but was willing to "have an open mind" if she didn't want to. The conversation was over in 5 seconds when she said "He's getting it."

I saw my son's done... It was nothing... Simple... Snip Snip... I had imagined it was going to be HORRIBLE to watch... It wasn't. As I mentioned earlier, I'm VERY queesy about needles and such... This was nothing... I think he cried just as much when they clamped and cut his umbilicle cord... (No... I didn't "cut the cord"... I nearly passed out when that was done) Using the "its traumatic" argument we should have just left that on too to save him the pain of the event or the loss of part of himself. And let's be honest here... All machismo aside... When its done on a newborn baby, we're talking MILLIMETERS of skin... I lost more flesh when I fell off my bike at age 6...

I suspect if their was a proceedure whereby you could cut a CM of skin off a baby girls chest and reduce her lifetime risk of breast cancer to almsot 0, but it would leave a scar when her breast develops, women would be lining up around the block to get it done to their daughters... Just as the scar the smallpox vaccine leaves on the arm was a no-brainer 30 years ago compared to the alternative risk of contracting smallpox. Penile Cancer is RARE across the board, but if I can eliminate the risk by performing a time-honored, socially acceptable proceedure for which the "political" arguments agianst seem to be questionable at best, I'm doing it.

PENILE CANCER
Advocates
Reports of several case series noted a strong association between lack of circumcision and penile cancer [18]. Advocates believe that "invasive penile cancer could be virtually eliminated in the United States by routine newborn circumcision" (p. 621) [19].

Critics
There are no American studies of the incidence of penile cancer and its association with circumcision status. Penile cancer is rare, and the estimated American incidence is about 1 per 100,000 [20]. In other developed countries where circumcision is rare, such as Denmark and Norway, the incidence of penile cancer is lower than the estimated American rate [21, 22]. Penile cancer occurs generally in elderly men [20]. Therefore, a male may make a decision to be circumcised when he is older without losing this claimed benefit.

http://www.circumcision.org/advocates.htm
================================================== ===


Well, I think we all concur that penile cancer is quite rare (10 out of one million). While botched circumcision procedures are not so rare (1 out of 500) which can result in serious complications. Chopping something off that God/Mother Nature gave him to "protect" against a 10 in a million chance of penile cancer is certainly not worth it to me. Maybe I should build an underground shelter to live in because there are much bigger risks to worry about like sids, car accidents, drownings. etc.

No offense, but my response to this is "Yeah... So???" You'll stop worrying about your "baby experiencing stress" a few weeks after hes born... That first ride home is hilarious... Like you've got a faberge egg balanced on the hood of the car... A few weeks later you'll come to the realization that they're a lot tougher than people who don't have them give them credit for. EVERYTHING causes babies physical and psychological stress, from vaginal delivery to diaper changes... circumcision clearly was not the most traumatic thing my child has gone through in his ten months. From his comparitive reaction, laying down for his afternoon nap (I have imperical evidence that falling to sleep HURTS!) seems to be a more traumatic event in his life than his circumcision. Learning to walk has caused him more bumps, bruises, cuts, scrapes, hemorrhages, and risks of infections and mutilation and psychological trauma (to me at least) than his circumcision. personally, I would've thought the concept of gravity and the lesson that when you are crawling on all fours and you suddenly lift your arms up above your head, YOU FALL FLAT ON YOUR FACE, would've sunk in after the first 20 times he tried it... but it hasn't... and he keeps trying...



Im laughing at this one... Wait til you get to change diapers 12 times a day... You couldn't keep urine and feces off there if you wrapped it in Saran wrap and sealed it with silicon... Hell, half the time my kid ends up with crap on his foot, his leg, my arm, his hands and his face... If feces and urine on your baby's penis is really your concern, you better HOPE you have a boy, because properly cleaning a baby girl after a dirty diaper requires a map and a flashlight to get all the poop out of all the places it hides... Thats why your baby has YOU dad... You and mom are solely responsible for keeping him clean for the first half a dozen years of his life... If you don't keep 'em clean, circumsised or not, there are going to be health problems like those you described...

I read the two articles and was impressed with the emotive nature of the writing and font style. Also with the complete lack of citing any real controlled study and considering all of the data and findings in that study.

There is a bit more to be said for the second article, but even here, the lack of specifics is troubling. For example, concern about mercury in vaccines is raised and the statement is made that mercury is still found in many vaccines, including ones for flu.

OK, fine, but a serious article would then go on to list the specifies of which vaccines had the substance and which did not. Here what happened is a concern is raised that is specific (perhaps valid and perhaps not). That specific concern about some vaccines is transferred with a broad brush to indict all vaccines.

To use the phrase of the good doctor, “any thinking doctor should recognize this article for what it is”.

I would point to the complete lack of consideration on the effects of relying on breast milk and using no vaccines as to the statistical effects of children who have not been vaccinated. I would also point out that there is no recommendation as to the proper time to begin vaccinations. The article claims (without proof) that the effects of breast milk last far longer than supposed, but I did not seen when the effects wear off (and hence when vaccinations should begin).

I’m not saying that there is no substance to the concern. But the overall tone is emotive and not scientific.

I would concede that some immunizations become increasingly unnecessary as the general populace is immunized. Smallpox would be the best example of this, but even then with the recent terrorist scare, there was an initial effort to immunize essential personnel against this disease. Plus, travels in some foreign climes will be far more dangerous without proper immunization.

I have traveled extensively in Central and South America and believe me, you want your kids vaccinated. The infant mortality rate in those countries is high simply because they rarely vaccinate children against common diseases.

Please keep your child away from my child.
If you want to exercise your right to pass on "standard" vaccinations, then you should fulfill your obligation to keep your child out of "standard" activities where he/she interacts with other children. These choices have serious implications for others around you.

Exactly what I was thinking in my post Chuck.

BTW, where have you been in South America? I lived and worked on and off for a couple of years (over probably a 5 year period) in Venezuela, Argentina and a bit in Brazil.

I have been to Chile, Argentina, Peru and Brazil. I have also been to Guatemala, Southern Mexico, El Salvador, and Nicaragua.

My family has a couple of businesses down in Central America, a T-Shirt factory and a finance company; both in Guatemala City, Guatemala. I was in those countries specifically scouring sites for facilities to build the t-shirt factory. At the time, the early 1990's, Guatemala had the best bang for the buck as it were. I speak the language so for me it was pretty easy to travel to those other countries. Most of them were just for a couple or three days though so I didn't do a lot of sight seeing. Most of my time down there has been spent in Guatemala. My family has a residence down there about 25 kilometers out of Guatemala Cty. I fist went down to Central America in 1988 and drove from Oceanside, CA to Guatemala City in a Ford Taurus wagon. Driving through the wilds of the Mexican interior is one experience I will NEVER forget. It got pretty hairy at times.

If YOUR child is vaccinated and the other child is not, how does that affect YOUR child? The worst that can happen is that child will contract a disease and pass it on to other kids who have not been vaccinated for that disease. Either way, I fail to see the threat to your child.


The only vaccination that we have passed on is chicken pox. The disease isn't too bad (as long as they get it when they're relatively young), and it's unclear whether the vaccine will remain effective through adult hood. In other words, I'd rather have a sick child with chicken pox than potentially have a sick adult with chicken pox. Of course, this means that I must make sure that my kids contract it while they are still young.

Scott, I agree with you. I don't know of anyone who never had chicken pox at some point. Perhaps an ineffective vacinnation? Kinda like how everyone ran out to get the flu shot when it's prepared in the first quarter of the year in anticipation for the winter (and yes, they were wayyy off on the last one).

I haven't even scrathed the surface for research on vacinnations, but I'll get there before June (delivery date).

And even if the kids don't get it when they are young, at least they will know they have to be careful. Much better than living with a false sense of security from the vaccine they had 30 years prior. JMHO, of course.