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Paramount to re-do "Godfather" DVDs

#181
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If a postcard faded, was scanned into a computer, restored, then rescanned to a postcard, yes, a postcard restoration has been accomplished. Surely you can see that? If a film fades/wears/deteriorates, is scanned into a computer, restored, and then rescanned to film, a film restoration has taken place.

Photochemical restoration and digital restoration both have the potential to create new elements. If they create new film elements, and those elements better represent the original film, then a film restoration has been accomplished. This is not a matter of opinion, Damin, so it isn't something we should continue arguing. If we disagree, we disagree, but the above is consistent with the work of film restorers the world over today, including Robert Harris, whose digital restoration work is very definitely film restoration when it creates an element in better keeping with the original film than surviving unrestored elements.

Both photochemical and digital begin with a film element. When the end product is another film element in better keeping with the film's original state, it isn't a mesh of 1's and 0's any more than it's a series of atoms or photosensitive particles. It's these things, sure, but no less film. And those 1's and 0's are not 1's and 0's on a film negative (unless you're watching certain scenes in The Matrix where numbers do, in fact, appear on the screen). Whether the image is photochemical or digital when it is worked on, once it is scanned to film it is, again, photochemical. There's nothing to physically differentiate a film element created optically from a film element created digtally, arguments about the quality of the specific work (apparent resolution/detail, color accuracy, etc.) notwithstanding.

“That line was screwy.”

- Outtake
Warner Bros.' Breakdowns of 1938

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#182
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Bill,

I generally agree with you on the notion of digital being a tool in bona fide film restoration.

I think, however, that you are too quick to assert that LDI is somehow above 1k cleanup. Just because Toyota launched the Lexus brand doesn't mean that it stopped making Corollas.
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#183
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This is not a matter of opinion, Damin, so it isn't something we should continue arguing.


Wow, I didn't realize I was discussing this with The Man Who Knows The Truth.

Since you know The Truth and I don't, I guess I'll exit the conversation by quoting someone else:

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LDI does not work in film restoration. There will be those who disagree with me on this point, but if one uses the correct meaning of terms, they do not restore film.

- Robert Harris, May 29, 2003

DJ
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#184
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You may be right, Andy. I'd be surprised if it's just a clean-up pass, but then I'm often surprised.

Damin -- I already quoted Harris earlier, regarding car detailing. But I thought we were discussing digital restoration, not the specific work of LDI. Mr. Harris does not classify his own digital work in that way -- I believe his criticism of LDI stemmed from the quality of their work as he'd viewed it to date, not the medium in which they work (digital). You'll note above where I say that simply scanning digital files to film is not enough -- they must create a film product in better keeping with the film as originally released? I don't want to put words in Mr. Harris' mouth, but from extensive discussions he and I and others have had here, I believe this is what he's saying. I always invite correction if I've misinterprited him or anyone, of course.

I'm one of those who disagrees with Mr. Harris on the issue of quality; I respect his opinion (he's seen their work projected; I haven't), and it should go without saying that I value it, and I'm sure he respects the effort to explore alternate opinions. That digital work can be film restoration is what I do not believe to be a matter of opinion; whether any particular digital effort gets us closer to a true representation of the original film than surviving elements allow, and would thus qualify as film restoration, is another issue, one which must be explored for each individual product.

Your sarcasm is duly noted ("the Man Who Knows the Truth" -- how'd you know what they voted me in my high school yearbook? ), and I have to get going as well, but I hope this discussion was of use to some.

“That line was screwy.”

- Outtake
Warner Bros.' Breakdowns of 1938

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#185
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But I thought we were discussing digital restoration, not the specific work of LDI.


It certainly began as a discussion of LDI. The first statement of yours to which I replied was that "[LDI] do work in digital film restoration, as evidenced by their 2K work for Paramount on past titles." You replied to this by telling me that I was dismissing all of digital restoration, etc.

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Your sarcasm is duly noted ("the man who knows the Truth")


If only you, too, weren't being serious when you claimed that this wasn't a matter of opinion...

DJ
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#186
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Damin wrote:
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The original film elements remain in the same condition afterwards as they did before: unrestored. Just because it is possible to make film prints out of their digital work, it doesn't mean they have done film restoration (it's possible to make postcards out of their digital images, too, and this doesn't make them postcard restorers).

How could I possibly think you were dismissing digital work as something less than film restoration? I'm pretty sure it's right there in black and white, but I'll leave it to others to decide.

I wrote:
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That digital work can be film restoration is what I do not believe to be a matter of opinion; whether any particular digital effort gets us closer to a true representation of the original film than surviving elements allow, and would thus qualify as film restoration, is another issue, one which must be explored for each individual product.

I trust this is similarly clear.

Now, you can have the last word if you'd like, Damin, because I really do have to go, and this isn't productive. Misrepresent what I've said if you like -- I invite others to re-read all of our posts. Over and out.

“That line was screwy.”

- Outtake
Warner Bros.' Breakdowns of 1938

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#187
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How could I possibly think you were dismissing digital work as something less than film restoration?


Thinking something is of lesser quality is not the same as dismissal, of course. If it wasn't clear for you the first time or second times, I will try saying it again: I have not dismissed digital restoration. A dismissal is a full rejection, and I've stated nothing remotely of the sort. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by contuining to repeat something I've already explained to you.

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I trust this is similarly clear.


It is clear that you believe your own opinion to be The Truth and that disagreeing with you is futile. It is also clear that, contrary to this claim, there are other opinions out there on the matter. Simply stating that your belief is the only one does not make it so.

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Now, you can have the last word if you'd like, Damin, because I really do have to go, and this isn't productive. Misrepresent what I've said if you like -- I invite others to re-read all of our posts. Over and out.


Are you implying that I've misrepresented anything you've said?

DJ
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#188
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If a film is restored digitally and then rescanned to film elements, those new film elements are restored. Thus, a film element, and thus, a film restoration. The simple act of scanning digital files to film isn't enough, of course -- they must return the picture to something better aproximating its original state. If they do, and they're on film ... film restoration. Digitally accomplished.


I have to disagree.

You do not have a "restoration" of the original film elements. What you have are new elements that were derived from the original elements.


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If a film fades/wears/deteriorates, is scanned into a computer, restored, and then rescanned to film, a film restoration has taken place.


No, it hasn't. As stated by Damin, the original film elements are still in their original condition....non-restored!

If a highly qualified painter were to paint a copy of an invaluable painting that had aged poorly, resulting in some cracking and fading of color, and attempted to make it look as close as possible to what they thought it should look like originally, has the painting been "restored"?

I dont think so....

But you do have a new painting (or film) that may (or may not) be a fair representation of what the original looked like.

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I invite others to re-read all of our posts. Over and out.


I have. And I think you are wrong. I hope you handle that better than last time we had a disagreement! :p)

For ordinary men, it's a burning, fiery furnace.
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#189
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LDI's work is excellent, but most of it is simply video processing. North By Northwest still has a yellow-faded 8-perf VistaVision negative. Citizen Kane still has no restoration negative.

Sunset Blvd. and Roman Holiday were restored with not only the intention of having pristine video masters, but to have new 35mm negatives. There are no new restoration negatives for Citizen Kane or North By Northwest.

Tell The Weinstein Company to release Richard Williams' animated masterpiece The Thief and the Cobbler on DVD in Panavision widescreen and uncut! See and hear what you're missing from their Bitsy Award winner of Worst Standard Edition DVD of 2006 on YouTube!
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#190
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Rob,

How do you address Bill's point about the kiss sequence in Rear Window?

I think you are too quick to dismiss digital work.

When one does a photochemical restoration, the original elements are typically in just as poor a condition as pre restoration. Typically, a restored master positive serves as the primary element for the film. Would anyone argue that such a film has not been restored?
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#191
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I think you are too quick to dismiss digital work.


Who the heck is dismissing digital work???

Just because I do not believe that what they are doing constitutes "film restoration" does not mean that I am, by any stretch of the imagination, "dismissing" their work!

I will go on record as saying that I think that some of what Lowry does is pretty amazing. They serve a very useful purpose.

To say they don't do "film restoration" is not intended to be a "knock" in any way. It just isn't film restoration.

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When one does a photochemical restoration, the original elements are typically in just as poor a condition as pre restoration.


What exactly do you mean by that statement? I am confused. If this were the case, why would anyone ever bother with a "restoration" of the film to begin with?

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#192
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And I think you are wrong. I hope you handle that better than last time we had a disagreement! :p)

For shame, Rob, saying such a thing without providing a link for the morbidly curious!:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...hreadid=165910 :p)

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If a highly qualified painter were to paint a copy of an invaluable painting that had aged poorly, resulting in some cracking and fading of color, and attempted to make it look as close as possible to what they thought it should look like originally, has the painting been "restored"?

LDI doesn't start from scratch, nor does any digital house of which I'm aware. They begin with scans of an original film element, and if those scans are of sufficient quality/resolution (generally 2K for older 35mm films), they can be accurately characterized as precise duplicates of the original (surviving, in-need-of-restoration) element. Restoration then commences.

Andy's right on target, and I also went into it a bit here:

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... the "original film elements" will often remain in the exact same condition they began in after photochemical restoration (physical cleaning and such notwithstanding). Such restoration often/usually* creates new elements, as does digital. Were you to look at surviving elements for Vertigo, you'd be none too pleased with some/much of it, but the restored, new 70mm elements look fantastic (Mr. Harris could comment much more definitively, of course, regarding that work).

There's a fundamental disconnect here, and I don't know how to bridge it. Very directly: a "restoration" means taking a worn or otherwise deteriorated element and, beginning with that, creating a new element. Whether you do that photochemically (optically printing the element, timing it, replacing layers of color/luminance information, and so on and so forth) or digitally, your end product can be many things, but when it's a film element you've created, and it is better representative of the original than the element(s) with which you started, film restoration has taken place. Photochemical film restoration, digital film restoration: it's all film restoration if it produces a final film element of proper fidelity.

Hope that helps. I really do believe we're discussing where the sun rises, guys. We can field all kinds of opinions on the matter, but at the end of the day, there's a fact we can look up in any text book if we don't believe our own eyes: it rises in the East. Whether work is optical or digital, if the final element is a film element, then that final element's fidelity to the original release state of the film (whether it's closer than the elements with which you started) is the question in determining film restoration, and the methodology by which that element was accomplished (optical/photochemical, digital, or a combination of the two) matters not at all. Only the end product matters.

It isn't that I mind discussing the matter -- it's that I mind being treated as if I'm a snob and/or an ignoramous for insisting something is fact when others would prefer to think otherwise. :p) At the end of the day it doesn't matter whether we can convince one another, which is why I'd rather not go on arguing the matter. I've had my say, which is all I was looking to have (I've defended digital work and LDI, which is all I was looking to defend). Now I look forward to reading the continuing thoughts of others, however afield they are of the science of film restoration. Robert Harris may chime in here and prove us all wrong, for that matter. Enough already. But for those who wonder about the value of LDI and the work of other digital houses, I hope this has shown that there's often much more to it than some have suggested, and a potential to it no less dignified, and no less inherently "film" in its final product, than that of photochemical film work.

P.S. "dismiss: To refuse to accept or recognize; reject: dismissed the claim as highly improbable." (source: dictionary.com). What has been dismissed here is the assertion that digital film restoration is possible. Either I'm hallucinating or two posters have said exactly that in as many hours, and it is this I've refuted time and again. Neither Andy nor I have said that anyone here has dismissed digital work as having any value at all, only that it has been dismissed as capable of film restoration. That was explained in my first paragraph concerning the matter, a few posts ago, and I believe also implied in what Andy posted. This is why I invite everyone who finds this discussion interesting to ignore the excerpts we've quoted (myself included) and instead read our entire posts.

digital film restoration is not an oxymoron, and can produce wonderful film results, just as can photochemical film restoration, and the two in tandem

Now, I swear, I promise, I've said all I will. I only posted this in response to Rob's post, and anyone who'd like to respond, go right ahead -- I've said these things many times over (though, sincerely, Rob, I do appreciate what was clearly good faith effort on your part to quote my comments in context), and I just don't have anything further to offer, so I won't post again on this subject.

* Always?

“That line was screwy.”

- Outtake
Warner Bros.' Breakdowns of 1938

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#193
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Rob,

How do you address Bill's point about the kiss sequence in Rear Window?

You mean where he states this:

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The first kiss in Rear Window between Kelly and Stewart was digitally restored and rescanned to film. By your definition, Damin, Mr. Harris didn't restore that scene. And yet he says, in the documentary, that it was the most important of the entire picture.


Uhh...what exactly is the "point" here? I do not understand how this in any way supports the argument that what Lowry does is "film restoration".

It could be the most important scene in the most important movie in history. So what? That doesn't mean it is "film restoration".

For ordinary men, it's a burning, fiery furnace.
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#194
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For shame, Rob, saying such a thing without providing a link for the morbidly curious!:




Thanks for the link!

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It isn't that I mind discussing the matter -- it's that I mind being treated as if I'm a snob and/or an ignoramous for insisting something is fact when others would prefer to think otherwise


But Bill, when you state things like this:

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I really do believe we're discussing where the sun rises, guys. We can field all kinds of opinions on the matter, but at the end of the day, there's a fact we can look up in any text book if we don't believe our own eyes: it rises in the East.


how do you think you come across???



You are fairly articulate, and are certainly capable of engaging in (semi-) intelligent arguments and raise points worth considering. The problem is that you rarely seem to give the same credit to anyone who disagrees with you.

It always seems to be The Gospel According to Bill!

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#195
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I hope Paramount sticks with the current disc art so that I can just replace the one in my collection and sell it on Ebay.
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#196
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That's never been my intent, Rob. But if we're discussing where the sun rises, someone says "the north!", and I say "hmmm ... well, I disagree, but you may have a point," is there really any purpose to that? While I started by defending LDI, this has become an issue of just what we can accurately call any digital restoration to film (of proper fidelity to the original), and I think the textbook answer is no less set than that of my metaphor.

I'm particularly passionate about defending LDI because it seems like I'm the only one who does. But, honestly, if I come across as dismissive, that's never my intent, and I apologize. It's the argument that evokes my stubborness, not the person.

Now, Marco, take it away my friend. You're right back on topic for the thread.

“That line was screwy.”

- Outtake
Warner Bros.' Breakdowns of 1938

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#197
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Don't really know what all the fuss is about.

My understanding is that when Vertigo was "restored" that was the term that was used. The end result being a brand spankin' new negative to generate new prints.

So, if chemicals, witchcraft, or computer processing is used to create a new negative; it seems to me that film restoration was accomplished. How well it is accomplished is another matter.

Seems like film restoration is being used as if it were art restoration - where the end result is a restored original work of art. With new film negatives, this is not the case.
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#198
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You do not have a "restoration" of the original film elements. What you have are new elements that were derived from the original elements.


I don't think this is quite an accurate statement of what film restoration is. By that definition, then "Lawrence of Arabia" was not restored, because as I read from interviews from Mr. Harris, the original negative of "Lawrence" was literally crumbling into dust as they were making the new interpositive in 1989. The original film contained in the cameras that were in Jordan does not exist anymore, just the film elements made in 1989.

I personally consider "Lawrence" a restoration because the "image" contained on the film was preserved, it dosen't matter that the negative that contained the image wasn't. To that end, it dosen't matter if its digital or photochemical that is used to perserve the image, there both different means to the same end.
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#199
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Seems like film restoration is being used as if it were art restoration - where the end result is a restored original work of art. With new film negatives, this is not the case.


Right!

It's not like Bob Harris was able to get Vertigo to print perfectly after going over the negative with an anti-static q-tip. He had to create a preservation element.
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#200
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Rob Tomlin:
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Just because I do not believe that what they are doing constitutes "film restoration" does not mean that I am, by any stretch of the imagination, "dismissing" their work!


This curious charge seems to be thrown around a lot. It seems if one doesn't accept the idea that a restoration done totally in the digital realm except for an unrelated film output afterwards is somehow a film restoration, one therefore utterly rejects digital restorations altogether. Very strange.

Bill Burns:
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There's a fundamental disconnect here, and I don't know how to bridge it. Very directly: a "restoration" means taking a worn or otherwise deteriorated element and, beginning with that, creating a new element. Whether you do that photochemically (optically printing the element, timing it, replacing layers of color/luminance information, and so on and so forth) or digitally, your end product can be many things, but when it's a film element you've created, and it is better representative of the original than the element(s) with which you started, film restoration has taken place.


Again, yours is obviously not the only opinion (or, rather, The Truth, since you've said opinions do not apply) under the sun. If it were, Mr. Harris certainly wouldn't've argued that what LDI does isn't film restoration (for even a digital cleanup by LDI must look appreciably "better representative of the original than the elements with which one started" in a number of certain respects on a number of their projects).

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Photochemical film restoration, digital film restoration: it's all film restoration if it produces a final film element of proper fidelity.

"Photochemical film" is redundant. It's like "bovine beef." Film is necessarily photochemical. If you're working with film, you're necessarily dealing with photochemistry. If photochemistry is not involved, then film cannot be involved. If a piece of meat isn't bovine, it isn't beef. "Digital film" would be like non-bovine beef. Non-photochemical film restoration is an oxymoron.

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Hope that helps. I really do believe we're discussing where the sun rises, guys. We can field all kinds of opinions on the matter, but at the end of the day, there's a fact we can look up in any text book if we don't believe our own eyes: it rises in the East.


Please point me in the direction of this textbook, please. It seems neither I nor some others have read it.

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Only the end product matters.


And the end product of a digital restoration is a digital file. This end product may be transferred to film as an afterthought, but it would be just that. The transfer to film isn't actually a part of the restoration process itself; the restoration has occurred before film has been involved. To categorize a restoration based upon one of many possible output media that was in no way involved in the process itself doesn't make a bit of sense to me. It would be like doing a restoration on a piece of audio entirely in the analog realm, using only analog hardware and software and then, after every last bit of actual restoration work had been completed, digitizing it, transferring it to a CD...and calling it a digital restoration.

It seems to me that a restoration done on film is a film restoration. If a restoration is done on a different medium, it is no longer a film restoration, but something else. This isn't a dismissal of digital technology, it's using language in a way that makes sense. Categorizing a restoration based upon anything other than the methodolgy used seems haphazard at best.

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It isn't that I mind discussing the matter -- it's that I mind being treated as if I'm a snob and/or an ignoramous for insisting something is fact when others would prefer to think otherwise.

I wonder where anyone would get that idea...

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This is not a matter of opinion, Damin, so it isn't something we should continue arguing.

Oh, yes, right there.

DJ
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#201
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That's never been my intent, Rob. But if we're discussing where the sun rises, someone says "the north!", and I say "hmmm ... well, I disagree, but you may have a point," is there really any purpose to that?


Simply amazing.

You start out by saying that it isn't your intent (to state things as being The Gospel According to Bill) and you don't like being treated as if you are a "snob and/or an ignoramus for insisting something is fact when others would prefer to think otherwise", and you again make a statement like the above!?

You just keep digging that hole deeper, don't you Bill?

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Only the end product matters.


Sure. Like I said, I have no problem with the type of work that Lowry does, and I have been very impressed with what they have done with some films (Raiders for example).

So, even if the end product looks great, and that's all that matters, does that necessarily mean that "film restoration" has been accomplished?

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#202
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Yes, Rob, I continue to insist what I've said is a fact.

I'm apparently the only one of the three of us who admits fallibility. I'm right about this; others seem to be right about everything including this. My mistake.

There's clearly no hope here -- until Robert Harris or someone you recognize as capable of actually knowing something says it's* a fact, anyone else who says it must be an egotist, and if they insist, a blowhard. So this egotist and blowhard is going to bed, and won't be checking this thread again, lest he finds himself egged once again into posting when he's promised he won't. Say/imply what you like about me in my absence. If it gets too far out of hand, perhaps an Admin will offer another Truth, but I won't be participating one way or another.

Perhaps I'll watch a fine LDI digital film restoration project such as Sunset Boulevard before I turn in. Nighty night. I hope someone with something new to say chimes in here -- all I hear are echoes of past posts right now, those of others and those of myself. The thread shouldn't be hijacked by the bickering of such as we, but somehow I doubt that sentiment sounds sincere to either of you (Rob/Damin). My absence should underscore it all the same.

* "it": for easy reference, that digital restoration work, rescanned to film, creates, if done with proper fidelity/quality, a restored film element, and thus a digital film restoration. Rich and Andy said it well above, and while I'm afraid Kevin misunderstood my quote, he and I are on the same page as well. Goodnight all.

“That line was screwy.”

- Outtake
Warner Bros.' Breakdowns of 1938

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#203
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Guys,
Stop hijacking this thread and agree to disagree. All of these personal references towards one another are not necessary and will not be tolerated. Thank you.




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#204
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Okay, so it's only the Godfather being redone? Would it be reasonable to expect Part II to be released individually (restored or otherwise) as well at some point in the future? I never bought the box set and don't plan to now.
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#205
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Greg, I would say that's very reasonable. Why sell it once when you can sell it twice?

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#206
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This is like saying, "it's not beef, it's bovine meat." Film is a photochemical format. If you're not working with photochemistry, you're not working with film. Saying it's not photochemical is just a longwinded way of saying it isn't film.


So, digitally remastered films are not films? That is the logical extension of your argumentation.
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#207
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And Attack Of The Clones isn't a film either?

I'm happy with the current trilogy box set, but I would buy an even better looking version without hesitation. Unlike many other LDI restorations (or so-called restorations, whatever suits you), the director and DP of this trilogy are still alive, so I assume all "corrections" (including the "mama at the funeral" shot) will be done with the blessing of Coppola and/or Willis......

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#208
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I think it's odd that only the FIRST is being digitally restored (or digitally enhanced or computer-style like type cleaned up and stuff or binary enhanced hard disk improved or pick your own overly semantic term for "improved picture" and beat it into the ground) but the second is apparently being totally left alone. The first rumor was that both were being done and the third would be neglected..but now it's just the first being worked on?

Are they waiting to see how many of us film nuts are going to rush out and pick up the new version before they move forward on Godfather II? Is it that restoring Godfather means they'll only have to produce up one disc instead of the 2 discs that Godfather II is spread out across? Or does Paramount just think that Godfather II's picture doesn't need touching up?

I personally think all three transfers are VERY representative of their original presentations, and that much of the complaints about the picture quality stem from that fact--people just aren't used to movies looking that way and think they need to be fixed--it's sort of the same thing as videophiles thinking that film grain needs to be completely stripped from the picture in order to improve visual quality.

Anyone have any ideas as to why only Godfather is getting Digitally scanned cleaned up fixed touched up improved remastered brushed scrubbed whatever?
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#209
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I personally think all three transfers are VERY representative of their original presentations, and that much of the complaints about the picture quality stem from that fact--people just aren't used to movies looking that way and think they need to be fixed--it's sort of the same thing as videophiles thinking that film grain needs to be completely stripped from the picture in order to improve visual quality.


I agree that the current transfers are very representative of their original presentations, as confirmed by my theatrical viewing of both Godfather 1 and 2 at The Academy Theater earlier this year.

However, I don't believe that "videophiles" think that all film grain needs to be completely stripped to improve quality. True videophiles certainly know better than that.

But, I agree with your general point, which is that many people would prefer all grain to be removed as they think that would give a better quality picture...regardless of whether it is truly representative of the original film. This is a bad thing, and is one of the things that LDI has been criticized for.

That being said, I do think that The Godfather is a good candidate for the type of work LDI does. Although the current DVD's are good representations of the original presentations overall, they definitely contain a fair number of scratches and dirt on the negatives. These are things that LDI can correct, resulting in a better overall presentation (assuming they don't go too far in other respects such as the grain removal discussed above).

As Mark stated, the DP and Director should be involved in this process.


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And Attack Of The Clones isn't a film either?


Nope.

It's a video!


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#210
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I'm with you Rob, I didn't mean ALL Videophiles think that, but some of them (looks like it's usually the newer ones who just found out about all this stuff) definitely do push that kind of agenda.

Still--I think it's weird that they're only going to do the first movie. maybe they'll hold off on the second to see how sales do on the first--but then again, I can't imagine that people would only buy the first and not the second--so why not do both at the same time?

Cost prohibitive, maybe?
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