Genesis on SACD soon

#61

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6/16/04 at 12:59pm

Michael St. Clair
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Quote:

Did I misread Music Tap? They did not mention SACDs being only in Europe....were they wrong in their reporting?

Uh, yeah. They are wrong. In more ways than one. This 'news' article is pretty bogus.

Are you actually suggesting that WEA is going to release Genesis on SACD in North America?

#62

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6/16/04 at 12:59pm

Michael St. Clair
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Quote:

Did I misread Music Tap? They did not mention SACDs being only in Europe....were they wrong in their reporting?

Uh, yeah. They are wrong. In more ways than one. This 'news' article is pretty bogus.

Are you actually suggesting that WEA is going to release Genesis on SACD in North America?

#63

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6/16/04 at 5:19pm

Doug Otte
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Music Tap is often wrong about many things - not to mention just plain poor writing.

Doug

#64

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6/16/04 at 5:19pm

Doug Otte
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Music Tap is often wrong about many things - not to mention just plain poor writing.

Doug

#65

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9/2/04 at 8:59am

Danny Tse
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From the official Genesis website....

Quote:

November will be a busy month for Genesis fans with three releases in the month. First up comes the SACD version of 'The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway' which has been re-mixed by Nick Davis at The Farm and is the first of several studio albums to be released in this format.

SACD not listed at sa-cd.net (updated 8/26/2009)

#66

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9/2/04 at 11:09am

Lee Scoggins
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Here is the Audio Asylum post as well:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hi...es/187665.html

I am looking forward to both SACDs. This would seem to support The Music Tap reporting.

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#67

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9/2/04 at 11:19am

Michael St. Clair
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Music Tap was never wrong that SACDs are coming, they are just wrong about everything else.

Last I heard direct from the producer/engineer, DVD-A and SACD are still both planned. And you can bet your ass that Atlantic ain't selling SACD in North America.

North American sites should be careful when quoting news releases from european bands who are distributed by a different label on this side of the pond. Such websites typically publish news as it relates to european consumers.

Unfortunately, Trick isn't going to be out until next spring or so, after having the new mixes sit on the shelf for a year or more!

#68

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9/2/04 at 1:40pm

Lee Scoggins
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Quote:

North American sites should be careful when quoting news releases from european bands who are distributed by a different label on this side of the pond. Such websites typically publish news as it relates to european consumers.

I agree but it may not be obvious when a press release discusses an album if it is referring to Euro release or not, especially in this case when the web site has a dot com extension and not a European one.

I like Genesis enough that I will pay for an import SACD in any event.

Mike, do we know how they transferred the analog tapes here? I think I remember they were analog to DSD transfers...

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#69

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9/2/04 at 1:44pm

Michael St. Clair
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Quote:

Mike, do we know how they transferred the analog tapes here? I think I remember they were analog to DSD transfers...

No, I asked Nick Davis (the band's 'house' engineer/producer who is working on this as well as all of their other audio/video releases). I've referenced this here a few times.

The original analog multis are converted to PCM multis. Then, the PCM multis are mixed through an analog desk, with the output mastered to 8-track Sonoma. Never got a final answer as to whether the PCM is done simultaneously or if it is converted from the DSD.

The SACDs will be analog->PCM->analog->DSD

#70

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9/2/04 at 2:20pm

Lee Scoggins
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Quote:

The original analog multis are converted to PCM multis. Then, the PCM multis are mixed through an analog desk, with the output mastered to 8-track Sonoma. Never got a final answer as to whether the PCM is done simultaneously or if it is converted from the DSD.

Do you have a link to this?

Nick Davis speaking on the Genesis message board says the analog tape went to DSD and the DVDAs are downconverted from the DSD masters.

Nick says:

Quote:

the dsd master will be converted to dvd a format (24bit/96k)

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh...t=35050&page=3

It would be a mistake to convert to PCM multis if you are going to convert to DSD master for the discs unless there is an issue with track count. You would convert tracks to DSD (up to 16, twice for 32 tracks or less) and then create the DSD master, then create the 24/96 PCM for the DVDA. Otherwise, you are introducing sonic problems/degradation.

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#71

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9/2/04 at 5:58pm

Michael St. Clair
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Lee,

If you are really such a big Genesis fan, you surely would have read the previous threads that covered this ground. Do you have a poor memory?

Or are you disingenuous in trying to make it look like these recordings were not produced using PCM?

Quote:

Nick Davis speaking on the Genesis message board says the analog tape went to DSD and the DVDAs are downconverted from the DSD masters.

Nope. You are taking this out of context and are implying that this is mixed in DSD with no PCM and analog intermediaries, and that is absolutely not correct. He is going straight from the analog of the mixing console to DSD, but that desk is mixing PCM conversions from the original analog multitracks.

We've been through this before several times, both here and at the Hoffman forums.

Direct quotes from Nick Davis:

Quote:

i think if you look around this board you will find more info as i have answered this question a few times.
also there is an interview in the wating room i copied the multitracks at 24bit 192khz. mixed down to dsd.

Quote:

(interview) Yeah. And then you play it on to a 2" and into a Pro Tools system that is running at 24 Bit 192K and we record the multitrack into that and then I mix from that format and through the desk into 5.1.

Quote:

i'm not using a digital console at all.
i'm using the farms' ssl 4000e desk and mixing on this and converting to digital as i go into the 'sonoma' dsd mastering computer.

Quote:

i am currently mixing down to a 'sonoma' which is an 8 channel dsd system.

Lee, what you are saying is in direct contradition with what Nick Davis has said and you should stop misrepresenting how this release was produced.

You also said:

Quote:

You would convert tracks to DSD (up to 16, twice for 32 tracks or less) and then create the DSD master

Oh, really. Can you name a single major-label pop/rock release that was produced this way (mixed in multitrack DSD). If that is really 'the way to do it', you can surely name some, right?

Of course, I always ask you this, and you always dodge it.

#72

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9/3/04 at 5:31am

Lee Scoggins
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You are such a grumpy person Mike. I just asked an honest question and you have question everything I said. What you said before was in contradiction to postings on the Steve Hoffman board and seemed to me to contradict the earlier statements I quoted from Nick Davis. That is why I asked for a link....

All you had to do was politely post the other quotes and things would have been fine. But you can't seem to do this without calling me "disingenous" and having a "poor memory".

Let's try to be more civil here as people ask for more information.

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#73

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9/3/04 at 6:40am

Michael St. Clair
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You say some of our more esteemed members are "not intelligent enough", "juvenile", and that their reasoned discourse "reflects poorly on (their) character".

And now you accuse me of not being civil? Talk about disingenuous.

Quote:

What you said before was in contradiction to postings on the Steve Hoffman board

Wrong. What I said before is what was posted to the SH board, months ago. I haven't contradicted anyone else, only the opposite can be true. And anybody who did contradict me didn't actually research the matter like I did.

Quote:

seemed to me to contradict the earlier statements I quoted from Nick Davis

In fact, the opposite is true. I researched the matter, and even asked Nick Davis directly (in a public forum). I then referenced in detail using many actual quotes how the album was being produced. And I posted the info here in July, and you ignored it. But before then, I posted it to a short SH thread all the way back on May 11, and you replied to the thread, and now you are acting like you are hearing this for the first time.

Then, after the fact, you go out and find one quote, and then you misinterpret it to fit your agenda. You did not research the matter fully, and you did not establish the proper context of the quote you (mis)used.

Oh, and since you are criticizing this release for not being mixed in DSD, perhaps you could list some other 24-track (like this one) major-label pop/rock releases that were mixed in DSD. You surely wouldn't critize one album for not doing what no one else is, right?

#74

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9/3/04 at 6:49am

Doug Otte
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Ouch! I'm staying out of that brawl, other than to say that, based upon all the posts I've read from Lee, I would not call him disingenuous, just a music lover who is being a cheerleader for SACD, and there's nothing wrong with that in my book.

It does seem, based upon Michael's quotes from Nick, that it's going through a PCM-layer, but we've had so much misinformation about SACD releases (remember the Eno debacle?), that I'll wait until the Lamb release to find out the specifics.

It's a shame that we can't get rock releases (none that I'm interested in, anyway) that are either pure DSD recordings, or at least from analog straight to DSD. I can definitely hear the "edge" in PCM-based SACDs. Contrast those with pure-DSD, like Telarc.

Cheers,
Doug

#75

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9/3/04 at 6:58am

Lee Scoggins
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Quote:

who is being a cheerleader for SACD

I think cheerleader is a strong word especially if it implies perhaps I do not keep an open mind on the alternative formats. I would prefer to think I am just a big fan. I have always been honest about the sound I like from DSD. I have also been honest about my love for hirez PCM, especially 96khz or higher. I have even said that DualDisc would be great if it leads to more hirez titles although I'm a bit cautious there given the history.

Quote:

It's a shame that we can't get rock releases (none that I'm interested in, anyway) that are either pure DSD recordings

I think there are several reasons for this:

1. Most pop engineers care less about sound quality.
2. Many pop engineers are more comfortable with the more established PCM editing tools which also unfortunately allow them to manipulate the sonics after the fact.
3. There may be more financial pressure to create multiple streams of revenue on pop/rock titles and some mya, incorrectly IMHO, see DSD has somehow limiting that.
4. There may be more royalty/layer issues on bigger releases where the stakes are higher.
5. On older titles like this you may have only analog tapes (which still sound great to DSD) or worse older PCM masters. I say "worse" because early PCM masters (with some exceptions like the Donald Fagan Nightfly album) suffered sonically due to dated A/D conversion chips. PCM has come a long way and Super Audio will improve greatly over time as well. Many people think the Meitner gear and the IsoMike recordings are good examples.

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#76

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9/3/04 at 7:04am

Michael St. Clair
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Quote:

It does seem, based upon Michael's quotes from Nick, that it's going through a PCM-layer, but we've had so much misinformation about SACD releases (remember the Eno debacle?), that I'll wait until the Lamb release to find out the specifics.

Doug,

Nick has talked about it extensively and repeatedly over at his board at the Genesis Talking Shop. It is very obvious that this album, which has been in the can for some time, came from PCM multitrack copies and an analog desk.

But if you'd like, you can go ask him yourself. But he might be 'grumpy', as rehashing the same old ground over and over and over again gets to be tiresome. And I would certainly empathize with him.

Oh, and if the liner notes actually give the full production details, this will be a very unique SACD indeed!

#77

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9/3/04 at 11:12am

LanceJ
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One man's "edge" is another man's clarity.

For example, many audiophiles complain about how bright or edgy sounding most studio monitors are. Actually it's not that these speakers are badly designed, rather, it's the fact that they are portraying the music more accurately than certain audiophile speakers are capable of doing. I'll admit listening to a studio monitor while it plays back a crappy recording may be fatiguing after awhile, but listening to a good recording is anything but a problem.

I read a report awhile back of some Pro Tools recording equipment where the owner complained it didn't sound as good as his analog system. When asked to expand on that statement, he admitted the digital system actually didn't have any specific sound of its own & he said it had what some people call a "black background", i.e. it was equivalent to a blank canvas and pretty much recorded exactly what was fed into it--IMO nothing wrong with that!! He went on to say he just missed the warmer sound of his analog tape-based format but confessed there were other methods to achieve a soft/warm sound in his recordings.

Lastly, comparing one studio's recording to another's without considering what mics, mic preamps, mixing consoles, EQ systems and a myriad of other factors will result in an incorrect conclusion.

#78

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9/3/04 at 11:30am

Doug Otte
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Quote:

I think cheerleader is a strong word especially if it implies perhaps I do not keep an open mind on the alternative formats. I would prefer to think I am just a big fan.

The latter is what I intended. But, how do you look in a cheerleader outfit? Never mind...

Quote:

But if you'd like, you can go ask him yourself. But he might be 'grumpy', as rehashing the same old ground over and over and over again gets to be tiresome. And I would certainly empathize with him.

No, in this case the details seem clear based upon his quotes. I was giving Lee the benefit of the doubt based upon other instances, e.g. my mention of the Eno remasters. First, the engineer (name slips my mind) announced in a press release that they would be SACDs. All he knew was that he was striking new masters using DSD. The record company no doubt wanted to upgrade its archives and had no intention of releasing them as SACDs.

Quote:

One man's "edge" is another man's clarity.

Agreed, and one man's opinion can change with experience. In the 80s, I loved the overly eq'ed, bright sound. Now I'm shifting back to a more balanced sound.

Vespertine sounds horribly harsh to me. Was the music originally mixed/mastered that way? Yes. Would it sound better TO ME if it had been done w/ DSD instead of PCM? I think so. Does it sound more harsh than a DSD Telarc (not a good comparison I brought up)? Yes. Do I still love the music anyway? Yes!

#79

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11/2/04 at 10:49am

Joe Valha
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Is this every getting released???

#80

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11/2/04 at 12:27pm

Michael St. Clair
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Peter Gabriel wanted some changes in the mix, things are dragging out.

Nick has said that 'A Trick of the Tail' might get released first.

#81

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11/2/04 at 1:03pm

Lee Scoggins
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I'm looking forward to hearing these.

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#82

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12/1/04 at 6:54pm

Joe Valha
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WHEN CAN I BUY THIS?? (Sorry to shout, but I've been really anxious for these.) Import or not, when are they going to be available?

#83

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12/1/04 at 8:41pm

PaulDA
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Not until the new year. Sorry.

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#84

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12/2/04 at 5:51am

ElevSkyMovie
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It seems pretty obvious to me that if these are complete remixes from the 24 track analog tapes, the engineer isn't going to put all that wear and tear on 30+ year old tapes that remixing would put on these tapes. They did what any good engineer would do, they transfered the tapes to something more robust. They went with 24/192 PCM, which in my book is pretty damn good. I think all this fussing about it is silly. These guys are pros and if it didn't sound good, they would have done something else.

#85

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12/2/04 at 10:03am

PaulDA
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Besides, in the US, Genesis are signed to Atlantic, a Warner division, so Genesis SACDs in N. America are likely to be of the IMPORT variety. We'll be blessed with DualDisc, that no manufacturer seems to want to have us put in their machines. I guess it'll be a chance for me to engage in some "global trade".

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#86

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12/2/04 at 6:09pm

Kevin C Brown
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Since DualDisc does exist now, does that mean that new releases that *could* be put on DVD-A, won't be?

Personally, I'd prefer a DVD-A. I'm not sure I'd even buy a DualDisc version until more player manufacturers "bless it" as a physical medium suitable for their machines.

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ...

#87

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12/2/04 at 9:02pm

Anton
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Bring it on Genesis.

I hope they mix in Surround sound, either DVD-A or SACD. Im learning to read fine print on SACD labels, appears not all SACD discs are SURROUND, others just read SACD STEREO.

I bought two POLICE Albums in SACD and both were only in SACD-Stereo. Wasnt anywhere close to SACD surround disks.

#88

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12/2/04 at 9:17pm

PaulDA
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Kevin,

Warner Bros. has already declared that unless an artist specifies otherwise, DualDisc will be the hi-res format of choice (some artists have specified a DVD-A bundled with a CD--REM is one, I think). Only artists with clout will be able to demand this, I suspect. The rest will be DualDisc.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes time, and it annoys the pig.

#89

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12/2/04 at 9:51pm

Rachael B
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Push 'em back, push 'em back, DSD, block that kick stick 'em with the surround mix, rah, rah, hold that line, hold that line, push 'em back, push 'em back, back, back, back S-A-C-D!

Rachael, the big disc cat! I used to be looking for Hi-Vision Laserdiscs & D-Theater tapes, now I'm looking for HD-DVD's and Blu-rays.

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#90

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12/3/04 at 9:01am