Yamaha RX-V1, Onkyo 989, Denon 5800

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Alex Yang, Aug 8, 2001.

  1. Alex Yang

    Alex Yang Stunt Coordinator

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    Lions, and Tigers and Bears oh my!
    I'm interested in a High End receiver and I'm leaning on the Onkyo TX-DS989 as this is fully upgradable via software and software is available to install DTS 6.1 (Discrete) and Dolby Pro Logic II...
    I've been hearing good things about Denon too... Is this receiver have upgrade capabilities as well? Can you simply get software to download onto the Denon 5800?
    Finally what about Yamaha RX-V1? Is this way down on the list as a distant 3rd place runner up???
    I'm treading water hear because lately I've been hearing disparaging words about Onkyo and their specification policy/integrity or lack thereof...
    What's a guy to do??? Please help?
    Thanks in advance!
    -Alex
     
  2. Richard Burzynski

    Richard Burzynski Second Unit

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    Alex:
    They're all a little different. I'd say the 5800 *was* the most popular until the recent 989 upgrade (for $50!!!) was rolled out. This upgrade went off without a hitch - a good friend of mine did his recently and he's very happy.
    The 5800 was advertised as being upgradeable when it came to market and now there is a rumor that Denon will charge ~$1500. Not a typo. Also, Denon was recently sold, so the new owners may do what they want.
    As for the RXV1, I have one as I am a big fan of Yamaha DSP's - can't picture me enjoying HT without 'em. I do not think it is upgradeable, but I just read that the Japanese version may be upgraded, so maybe there is hope for us as well? Fingers crossed on this one.
    Also, most B&K owners will tell you that they are very happy with their receivers as well.
    Good Luck.
    Rich B.
     
  3. Shane Martin

    Shane Martin Producer

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    The only proven upgradable reciever thus far is the Onkyo line of home theater products, the others are just blowing smoke until they actually do release it. Also remember that the 5700 was upgradable and never was. The only thing that the Denon lacks is DPL II, however that might grow as more features are released and upgraded on the Onkyo. You just never know.
    B&K
    B&K's past tends to say they will do an upgrade but they are tight lipped about it.
    Yamaha
    See Denon. Although they just released a nifty prontoesque remote that is kinda cool if you ask me.
    As far as sound goes thats where this gets interesting. To me the B&K is the winner however depending on your speakers this could go any which way. Onkyo's have been mentioned by quite a few to lean towards the bright side of things and I know of atleast one member who swapped theirs out for a B&K. Yamaha's are the brighter of the 3 however you might like bright.
    There really is not a loser here in these 4 super recievers so there really is no pure recommendation.
     
  4. Alex Yang

    Alex Yang Stunt Coordinator

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    Rich,
    Thanks for the info. I'm leaning towards the Denon right now because I just purchased the Mirage OM-5 speakers. I was/am very VERY tempted to go with the Onkyo and the upgradability of this receiver (TX-DS989) BUT, I'm a little concerned with the unit shutting down at reference level when powering 4 ohm speakers... The Mirage speakers AREN'T rated at 4ohms but never the less they are high end speakers and I want a quality receiver to match them.
    Maybe I'll wait for the Denon 5802 or the 5900 and bypass their $1500.00 upgrade... [​IMG]((
    Thanks again!
    -Alex
     
  5. Alex Yang

    Alex Yang Stunt Coordinator

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    Shane,
    thanks for the info... I knew all four (4) including the B&K were TOP notch receivers... I just wanted to get as many PROs/CONs as I could... [​IMG]
    I'm definately leaning now towards to Denon as you said it is ONLY missing the DPLII... What about 6.1 Discrete for Dolby Digital, does this exists??? I can't seem to remember if this is the same as THX 6.1 (Is this the same thing?
    thanks,
    -Alex
     
  6. Shane Martin

    Shane Martin Producer

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  7. Alex Yang

    Alex Yang Stunt Coordinator

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    Shane,
    I'm DEFINATELY new to HI-END (Hi-Fi) equipment, my old Home theater stuff included Pioneer VSX-906S and Bose speakers...
    As you can tell I don't know about this BASS management stuff... Could you please clarify for me... Especially with my NEW Tower Mirage OM-5 speakers with built in POWERED subs... ????
    Thanks,
    -Alex
    PS. I'm sending you email too just in case...
     
  8. Shane Martin

    Shane Martin Producer

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    I think you're better off creating a seperate post regarding bass management so you won't throw this topic off kelter.
     
  9. John-D

    John-D Stunt Coordinator

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    Alex,
    New Onkyo 989 units are supposed to have the upgrade installed already.
    I wouldn't doubt Onkyo's integrity in rating their receivers. If you go by their track record, they have been the most consistent with their ratings measuring up the closest in independent testing. If anything, Denon receivers have come short of theirs.
    You have some excellent speakers Alex. They are compatible with 8ohms and are reasonably efficient. At moderate volumes you will have no problems running them off a receiver, BUT, my advice to you is to seriously look into some external amplification to run your speakers Large.
    Good Luck
    ------------------
    The things we own end up owning us
     
  10. Elbert Lee

    Elbert Lee Supporting Actor

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    I have had experience with RXV-1, Denon 4800 and 5800, and B&K (Ref 20 and 307 receiver)
    My component of choice is the Denon since I have an outboard amp and do 90% HT.
    1) Best sounding 2 channel receiver: B&K - draws the most AC power and sounds rich/smooth and great for slightly bright electronics. However, if you run an outboard amp, I would still use the Internal amps to power the rears as this unit RUNS HOT. I also had some transformer noise with the unit I was using. In the past, B&K has never really had a comprehensive upgrade path. WHile their service is great (I had a defective 4090 pream and they swapped the internals for a REF 20, I can't say that their products will be "Bug free" since 3 of their products I used already had some minor quirks.
    I wouldn't count on any upgrades since they never really offered an upgrade path for their past products even though they did say they were upgradable.
    2) The Denon is upgradable to DPLII, but whether they include the newest format (DTS24/96), it's difficult to determine. Power-wise, I would say it's around 150w and not 170, but the best sounding COMPLETE receiver in terms of features. The new AVR5800 will have everything up to date and I would suspect sometime next March so the 4802 may be a good alternative.
    3) Yamaha - Very smooth sounding and the dual burr brown 1704 dacs are a nice touch. I doubt there will be an upgrade since Yamaha is debutting a new line this fall and their reps are avoiding the DPLII upgrade question. AMps are not the strongest and I would definitely supplant this receiver with an outboard amp (for the front 2 or 3 channels). Bass management is fixed at 90hz, which takes punch away from anyone with full range mains. Good sounding as a preamp for its price and I believe its retail price will drop to $2199 at the end of the month. Sreet price should be around $1799 by september.
    hope this helps!
    Elbert
     
  11. Bob_A

    Bob_A Supporting Actor

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    Alex weren't you the guy who was considering Def Tech...? [​IMG] OM-5 is a pretty good speaker though
    Don't listen to people who say the yamaha is "bright". If anything, the others may roll off the highs to a certain extent...but having heard the dspA1 and rx-v1 I say they are natural and clear sounding and not bright (I have my dspA1 paired with 2000TL's and since they are both quite neutral IMO the sound is very natural and neutral).
    With Mirage you should probably try to audition them with different receivers. There is no such thing as a "best" receiver in this group...what is more important is how well your receiver matches with your speakers to create the type of sound you are looking for.
     
  12. Alex Yang

    Alex Yang Stunt Coordinator

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    Bob,
    Guilty as charged!!! I'm the same guy who was deciding between the Mirage and DefTechs... I auditioned them BOTH 2000TL's and the Mirage OM-5's... I wound up liking the Mirage speakers better than the Def Tech...
    Now the TOUGH decision is as you put it, is to MATCH the speakers to the receiver... I was hoping to find a member here on the forum who owns Mirage and one of these receivers ... [​IMG]
    Thanks!
    -Alex
     
  13. Bob_A

    Bob_A Supporting Actor

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    Alex...just curious what receiver/amp you used when listening to 2000TL. In what ways did you find it lacking in comparison to OM5? How did they hook up the Definitives (they manage to hook them up "full range"?), and how much space did they give them in between and away from the walls? Did they actually have a broken in pair (>100 hours of use before they really open up I'd say)? Just curious to see how they would set it up. I am actually not surprised because I have never had a great audition at the store with Def Techs...you really have to live with them to get them to sound truly unbelievable.
    But anyway you should seriously consider b&k avr307 along with the others in terms of sheer sound quality...you should ask Mirage owners what kind of amps/receivers they have hooked up to their systems to get an idea what seems to match well.
     
  14. Alex Yang

    Alex Yang Stunt Coordinator

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    Bob, (Very VERY lengthy synopsis of my audition of DefTech and Mirage...)
    The DefTech BP2000TL were hooked up to Surefire Theater Grand, and I could tell you these were NOT brand new speakers! They sounded GREAT!!! I had a friend audition them with me and he loved it also...
    The store in question is Stereo Exchange NYC on Broadway. The DEFTECH room was ROOM # 3 in the back. Speakers were slightly toed in about 1.5 feet from the back wall and 2.5 feet from the side walls. Room dimensions were APPROX 30ft X 45 ft
    We listened to Faith Hill, Billy Joel, Pachabel's Canon, Beethoven's 5th & 9th sympthonies, watched Dragon Heart (Chapter 12), Gladiator (of course the begining war scene!!!), The Fifth Element (Chapter 24, Big Blue Opera singer)...
    The DefTech speakers were DEFINATELY NOT NEW, they were used, I'm sorry I didn't ask how many hours they were used, BUT from the looks of the room/equipment/condition, I can safely say that the speakers have been out on display for over 6 months... (Please don't ask me how I derived it, I can't tell you...) The DEFTECH's really REALLY sounded great, but it couldn't compare to the Mirage, in a few ways...
    1. Clarity/imaging - When listening to the CD's particularly Faith Hill, Beethoven, and Pachabel's Canon, the sound of the Pianos, Vocals, and Strings sounded CRYSTAL clear/ SHARP on the Mirage as compared to the DefTech.
    2. Ambiance - When listening to the DVD's or CD's I get was able to get a better sense of BIPOLAR speakers with the Mirage than the DefTechs... THe 3D/Ambiance/Spacialness of the Mirage really made me believe in BiPolar Technology. The DefTech didn't have that effect. Maybe it was the positioning of the speakers I don't know but we tried placing the speakers in three different positions (deftech) and it still didn't bring out the effect that the Mirage had...
    ************************************************** ******
    Mirage setup - Listened to OM-9/OM-7/OM-5
    I originally auditioned the OM-9's two weeks ago, then the thread to Home theater and then four days ago I auditioned the OM-7 and OM-5 and DEFTECH!!!
    I listened to the DEFTECH's first and as I've stated, I was blown away by the sound. Then I listened to the OM-7's and it COULDN'T compare to the DEFTECH because of the BASS... OM-7 come with PASSIVE woofers and it was NO MATCH at all for the DEFTECH, BUT the CLARITY that I spoke of was there, crystal clear imaging of the Piano's, strings and vocals... Then I tried the OM-5's and it was everything that the DefTech's were WITH the clarity...
    OM-7 and OM-5 were hooked up to the CLASSE amp/preamp but after listening to them in that environment AND MORE IMPORTANTLY to give the DEFTECH a fair chance, we moved the OM-5's into the DEFTECH room and the OM-5 really REALLY showed itself...
    The OM-5's sounded EVEN better in this room than the first room with the CLASSE equipment!!! First SHOT placed speakers in the front of the room where the BP2000TL sat and I was blown away. I had to re-audtion the Deftech's just to be sure, we tried three different positions (DefTechs) and we could NOT recreate the ambiance/clarity the Mirage was able to...
    -Alex
     
  15. Chris Maynard

    Chris Maynard Supporting Actor

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  16. Adam Barratt

    Adam Barratt Cinematographer

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    Yamaha Japan are offering an upgrade for the RX-V1 (DSP-AX1 in Japan, minus tuner) for just over $300. It adds DTS ES Discrete 6.1, DTS Neo:6 and MPEG-2 AAC.
    These upgrades would bring the RX-V1 in line with the feature-set expected of a current flagship model, but no word on a DPL2 upgrade (which is much more important than DTS ES Discrete 6.1, Neo:6 etc. IMO)
    Adam
     
  17. Alex Yang

    Alex Yang Stunt Coordinator

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    Adam, Chris,
    Thanks for the info on the Yamaha, I seriously SERIOUSLY lusted after the DSP-A1 Two years ago when they were first being introduced!!! I was disappointed by Yamaha this year because they didn't have an equivalent DSP-AXX model and the new "FLAGSHIP" is the RX-V1... Has this line been discontinued? Is the RX-V1 in the same class as the DSP-A1 was two years ago? I've tried to listen to the Yamaha on Three different occasions but only the Chain stores like "nobody beats the wiz" and PC Richards seems to carry them, Stero Exchange and the other Hi-end stores carry the Classe, Sunfire, Macintosh, Integra, etc...
    And every #*$$#S$&* chain store I tried to audition the Yamaha didn't have this hooked up, I finally was able to find ONE store (Wiz) that had it on display and I asked the salesperson about it. They carried the Denon also which I'm also trying to audition BUT only up to the 3801... [​IMG]((
    I asked him to check out the prices for BOTH the Yamaha and the Denon, and after five minutes he came back and told me the Yamaha was a floor model ONLY one was delivered to the store, and he didn't have the 5800 ever. I told him how I was interested in the higher end receivers and wanted to listen to the Yamaha... His reply was "I'm sorry it's not hooked up..." He didn't even offer to TRY?!!???! Instead he quickly turned around to another customer and started to advise another customer to purchse a LOW end Sony receiver un $100 floor model...
    I walked out FAST when he advised the customer that it was possible to hook up his non working AIWI Mini system's speaker to the Sony and how all mini systems speakers had a "lower threshold" for power at 6ohm and typically should be able to hook up with NO PROBLEMS... and then he offered the $20.00 service contract...
    Well at least I had a good laugh on my home... [​IMG]
    -Alex
     
  18. Chris Maynard

    Chris Maynard Supporting Actor

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    Alex - Don't get me wrong. The A1 was an awesome piece and still a solid performer. But....if you match it with brite speakers it may become difficult to listen to over extended periods especially at higher volume levels.
    Adam - Interesting news!
     
  19. Bob_A

    Bob_A Supporting Actor

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  20. Bob_A

    Bob_A Supporting Actor

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    Alex, the Def Techs were hooked up to sunfire equipment and the Mirages were hooked up to Classe equipment???
    There shouldn't have been ANY problems with clarity believe me (clarity and imaging should be great)! I am certain that amp choice was the culprit here [​IMG]
    But you certainly didn't make a bad decision...but you might want to try some different amps at home if you can.
     

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