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WOW! How does SVS do it?!.... (1 Viewer)

Roberto Carlo

Second Unit
Joined
Apr 14, 2002
Messages
445
Howard Ferstler of $ensible $ound reviewed the Sunfire and wrote that "it is more of an outboard 'woofer' than a subwoofer. The Sunfire could do 96db cleanly at 31.5hz -- similar performance to what the NHT SW10 and Velodyne CT-80 did in his room. The problem, he noted, was that these subwoofers cost less than half of the Sunfire's "rather steep" list price.
 

FrantzM

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Feb 9, 2003
Messages
69
I live outside the USA and can audition certain systems only when I travel (quite a lot fortunately!!). From the plebiscite I am reading here the SVS are something special, their price is also reasonnable. I will certainly give them a listen next time I go to the USA.
Any of you have a good experince with it in classical music?

Frantz
 

Jack Gilvey

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 13, 1999
Messages
4,948
With a whole litany of sub DIY web sites and software like WinISD, it's pretty easy to design a vented sub that looks good on paper - making it sound GREAT is a whole other ball game,
I must be some sort of savant, then. Of course, "looks good on paper" means different things depending on experience. :)
 

Edward J M

Senior HTF Member
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Sep 22, 2002
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I must be some sort of savant, then. Of course, "looks good on paper" means different things depending on experience.
"Savant Syndrome is an exceedingly rare but remarkable condition in which persons with serious mental handicaps, resulting from various developmental disabilities, such as Autism or Williams Syndrome, or from major mental illness, have astonishing islands of ability or brilliance that stand in stark, markedly incongruous contrast to the overall disability."

I take it Jack, that you are a "DIY subwoofer savant", in that you have enjoyed extraordinary success in building subwoofers that not only modeled well on paper but also sounded great.

I would submit - based on how often your name crops up in various DIY subwoofer forums - that you are far from a rank amateur in the arena of DIY subwoofer building. However, might I remind you of your attempt to build an infinite baffle subwoofer with an Adire Tempest driver in the closet of your house that "looked good on paper" but in your own words sounded, shall we say, less than spectacular upon firing up, and to add insult to injury, also rolled off sharply at 50 Hz.

All I meant by my previous post is that even with reasonable care in the R&D phase, it is still possible that one's first attempt at a DIY sub might not sound as good as it COULD, if said builder were given the opportunity to alter the variables slightly and build/test several slightly different iterations. Given the general goodness of the modeling software and formulas available, in all likelihood, none of them would sound bad. By the same token, it is also likely one of the iterations will sound excellent, where all of the variables interact in a synergistic fashion and the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

The average DIY builder doesn't have that luxury and might suffer from niggling "what if" doubt, even if the first iteration is by most accounts a qualified success. For me, it's fun to dabble in DIY. On the other hand, it's also very reassuring to know that someone like Tom V has already ensured that the big black cylinder that sits front and center in my HT system is the best it can possibly be.

Regards,

Ed
 

Seth_L

Screenwriter
Joined
Apr 5, 2002
Messages
1,553
Ed,

If you follow the formulas you can get a great sounding sub cheap. The catch is that the sub may not be all that small. The reason why there's so much R&D in subs is because the major manufacturers are too busy trying to cheat the formulas and skimping on their designs.

Even the mighty SVS is cheating the formulas some. Their subs are built much more in the style of a DIY person who follows the formulas precisely, but even they stray some when it comes to port size and tuning. They do that to keep the box size to what they think people will accept.

It is possible to build a sonotube sub/SVS clone for less money that sounds better. You don't have to be a savant to do it. If you pick a driver of decent quality with appropriate parameters, follow the formulas precisely, and do a decent job of constructing it you will get a great sounding sub. There is no magic. It's very straight forward. If you're a newbie you stop by the DIY forum and ask questions, get good advice, and go on your way building that great sounding sub.

It's really only when you try to break hoffman's iron law(s) that you have to posess magical qualities to get great results. Since the DIY crowd isn't busy doing that it's rather straight forward.

Seth
 

Jack Gilvey

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 13, 1999
Messages
4,948
The average DIY builder doesn't have that luxury and might suffer from niggling "what if" doubt, even if the first iteration is by most accounts a qualified success. For me, it's fun to dabble in DIY. On the other hand, it's also very reassuring to know that someone like Tom V has already ensured that the big black cylinder that sits front and center in my HT system is the best it can possibly be.
Yep. This reassurance (reviews, etc.)is the most important criterium for many, if not most. For me, the "what if" doubts only crop up if confronted with a commercial unit designed to a price point, acceptable size, etc. As all are.

Anyway, points well taken as usual.
 

Zack_R

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Nov 4, 2002
Messages
220
It is possible to build a sonotube sub/SVS clone for less money that sounds better. You don't have to be a savant to do it. If you pick a driver of decent quality with appropriate parameters, follow the formulas precisely, and do a decent job of constructing it you will get a great sounding sub. There is no magic. It's very straight forward. If you're a newbie you stop by the DIY forum and ask questions, get good advice, and go on your way building that great sounding sub.
I think most would agree with the above. I'm certainly glad that there is forum such as Hometheater with dedicated DYIers to aid and mentor those willing to pursue speaker building. At some point I may be venture down that path.

At least with the heavily reviewed SVS cylinder seriesm, the difference between DYI and the SVS is not worth the difference in dollars for me enter the hobby. In my case the tools (both hardware and software) and time needed for a one time sub build were not justifiable. For me, getting a proven SVS sub set-up got me in the top of category performance and allowed me to listen at spl levels and extension that the gbest DYIers are accustomed too. With an attractive speaker to boot.:)

Sometimes you'd just rather buy something and move on than build it yourself. Currently, my real hobbies are landscaping and weightlifting. Home audio / video is something I enjoy but it's not my hobby.

Regarding landscaping, I try to do it all; plant, mulch, exterior lighting, etc. I really enjoy it and I can't believe others pay people to do what I love. And the price is genrally 3-5 times less if you do it yourself.
 

Robert_Gaither

Screenwriter
Joined
Mar 12, 2002
Messages
1,370
I'm gonna have to disagree about building a sub being cheaper than building a SVS clone as from at least my experience (considering I bought a lot of my tools used). I think the first sub a person builds will usually put them in the $400-500 range (assuming they have an amp at least) but where the savings comes from is when you upgrade (tools are reusable) then the next expense is simply the driver, wood, and maybe the amp (assuming this needs an upgrade).
 

Seth_L

Screenwriter
Joined
Apr 5, 2002
Messages
1,553
Robert,

Of course if you factor in the cost of tools you might not be able to build a SVS for the less.

However, it's an absurd comparison to do so. If you only count the sonotube, amp, driver, and other building materials you can build a superior speaker for less.

Seth
 

Robert_Gaither

Screenwriter
Joined
Mar 12, 2002
Messages
1,370
I respectfully disagree Seth, I don't think it's absurd as I have read enough posts in the past on almost every audio forum I've visited where someone wants to build a sub but can't allocate funds for tools as well. Budget is a primary force for many Diy and for some time as well and buying an item that might only cost $100-200 more from SVS, Adire, Hsu, and VMPS is very reasonable to many folks that lack both of the above as well as confidence in the skill of building a sub (right now I'm trying to build my second non-tube sub and it's not pretty). Don't forget there are also people out there who maybe shouldn't use tools as there's a chance of a health hazard that should also make them explore other options (of course imho, why they don't post in the Diy or hardware for sale to buy a used sub of the Diy caliber for a similar price is beyond me).

I definitely agree with you on just the cost of materials that one can be built that is superior, but to me the main advantages of Diy, other than the custom sub built to ones tastes, is when you upgrade or add a second sub you still have the tools and now have more experience to go to that next step up and still get performance that most people really can't imagine as they've never personally experience a good sub to begin with. I agree with you about trying to diy a sub as it's really the easiest speaker to build (esp the sonotube route) and will give the most bang for the buck, but for most this is usually an overlooked opportunity and unfortunately most will never know.
 

Jack Gilvey

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 13, 1999
Messages
4,948
I agree with your points, Robert, and have made them a few times in the past. If someone is looking into DIY solely to save some money on a one-time deal, doesn't have the tools needed, and is merely looking for performance akin to a Dharman or lower-end SVS, then it's not really worth it. Most DIY-ers who actually approach their project with this mindset get bored quickly.
Certain subs in the cheaper brackets do make it difficult to justify DIY on price alone even with tools. The Adire Rava comes immediately to mind.
 

Chip E

Screenwriter
Joined
Nov 25, 2000
Messages
1,165
Yeah Jack, i ordered a Rava for a buddy of mine i set an HT up for... kick'n little sub... He's had it for about three weeks now and loves it. (especially for music).
 

FrantzM

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Feb 9, 2003
Messages
69
Hi List

I am businessperson. It is interesting how people do not apprehend the concept of cost. Price is more easily grabbed. When one take all the parts in almost any speakers the total may not reach 30% of their retail price even with speakers being sold at 30,000. Suddenly people call this a 600% margin and next the manufacturer is stoned to death....

Well 30% represents the cost of parts but do you think they knew what parts to use just by accident? That means research, it involves time and money...
So how did they sell it? By advertising somehow, else no one would have known about it. Even taking it to a friend is advertising and involves time and money
They have to have someone to take the money from you.. This involves time and money.
They have to have someone to help you when the product does not perform... This involves time and money..
I could add a lot more examples to make the non-business person understand what it takes to run a business and to have them understand that the price of the equipment can not simply the cost of the parts... This is like saying that because the software is on a 10 cents CD-ROM it should not be worth more than a quarter....

The hobbyist who does it by her/himself, invest his/her time and money in the final products. He/She may become very adept at it. He/she would have invested his/her time and money... Often a lot more than anticipated ( You may have to factor the botched experiments, the bad parts, the long distance phone calls, the hours of frustration, etc). You would have invested Time and Money

There is no free lunch> you may not realize the trues costs but EVERYTHING has a cost and it is not the sum of the most visible parts...

Now I need to give these SVS a serious listen ;). I have only heard great things about them and the prices are right... Are they that good?


Frantz Mathias
Port-au-Prince, Haiti
 

TommyL

Supporting Actor
Joined
May 27, 2002
Messages
590
Frantz...are they that good....ummm..HELL YES! try one for 45 days...if ya don't agree, send it back:)
 

FrantzM

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Feb 9, 2003
Messages
69
Hi

I live outside the USA. It is not very easy to send anything back , this is both good and bad. I can not "impulse-buy". My purchases have to be carefully researched.
I must tell you that I will try to hear an SVS as soon as possible. I am a purist and love music. I want to be convinced that they perform as well with purely music material especially classical.

Let me know guys. Learning a lot from this Forum

Frantz
 

terence

Supporting Actor
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
985
Hi Frantz,

I understand your concerns, but i would bet the house you will love this sub. It very accurate so classical music should be no problem. I would also e-mail Tom or Ron with your questions, they are Johnny on the spot. I say go for it you will not be disappointed.:D
 

Parker Clack

Schizophrenic Man
Moderator
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Jun 30, 1997
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Kansas City, MO
Real Name
Parker
Frantz:

I have listened to quite a few classical recordings of Beethoven, Mozart, Vivaldi and Bach and I am here to say that for these recordings the SV Sub shines. The Brandenberg Concertos and Beethoven's 9th are particular favorites of mine.

An SV sub is a very "musical" subwoofer. By that I mean it doesn't add anything to the music through coloration. It just reproduces the sub bass that you send it it very very well.

I hope you are able to audition one in the US soon. You will never realize what you have been missing in your system until you add one of these fine woofs.

Parker
 

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