Woof-Mania/Sub-Age Overkill Observation! (1 Viewer)

[Geoff L]

Steve
Seriously like I need more subs, good lord, I don't use what I have now. Oh and the neighbor condo (cry baby problem) is not a problem anymore...

To thos that actually do Ref on Action movies:
How the heck do you guys listen at those spl levels "threw a whole movie", I can't take it myself nor the house and I've tried.
I'm talking Ref and or Above and not even using a hot movie...
Crap falling down all over the place in the house, rattles your not hearing threw the house while you break stuff, momas stuff usually, pictures litterly blown/bouncing off the wall, bowing windows, etc come on!


Watching the siesmic ripple rings from the bass spread across my coffee cup is cool tho. Poor mans spl meter and Hz extension reader. Not to good for reading distortion tho.

Hey now Steve, my Sony Super Boom Box carry away system with 3 selection mega bass, rocks! I spent months in serious listening session before deciding to purchase. The SQ is incrediable on this thing and Ref is reached with ease...:rolleyes
Oh stop it West/Steve, your killing me here with your little Geoff drop line pokes.

HQ-Bass Nut Woofen overkill junkys, you just plain got more than you need and the reason is more than likely just because you can, or maybe you feel a un-controled need pssibly combined with underlying childhood issues! lol

Bigger better faster, the great American way!

Cheers

 

[Cam McFarland]

When your ears start to bleed...........

 

[Garrett Lundy]

Welcome to Enthusiast World!

If you think subs are bad, try hot-rodding! Then you can spend $10,000 for a an "upgrade" that will only make your car 1/10th of a second faster in a quarter-mile!

 

[Bhagi Katbamna]

I have to chime in here. I have a large room and have 3 subs. Until I got the 3rd(an SVS Ultra CS) some films(like Titan AE) could bottom out my subs even at moderately loud levels(not reference--which is way too loud for me). Now at the same levels, they don't bottom out. I don't think that there is a single sub commercially available(perhaps except the large Genelec or the Servodrive that would work for me. My room is 7000+ cu. ft.

 

[Frank.Ch]

To me, it will be enough bass when I feel like I have as much bass as a good movie theater :b

My only dillema is that my wife is already scared of the amount of bass my KSW-12 makes.

My problem is that I need much more tighter bass.

How to compromise? A dedicated home theater room??

 

[Frank.Ch]

quote: "My room is 7000+ cu. ft."


Wow, that seems pretty big. What's the square footage of the room?

 

[Mike Keith]

The only was to get a good visual representation of what you could be missing is to take a Waterfall plot of the LFE output to the sub and compare it to a Waterfall of your seating position with a good calibrated Mic.

You might be amazed at how many so called “overkill” sub woofers can't reproduce properly the output it's given.

Of course this is all speculation on my part as I don’t have the equipment to do this and verify. However based on some plots posted here by Chu Gai (I think) and a running article in AV Ultimate (Stereophile) that ran a test on many top subs ($500 to 10K) that used Waterfall plots, I’ve become to believe that nearly all subs fall short reproducing the low end energy that is present in the signal.

 

[frank manrique]

quote:

"I agree with the original poster. I feel some get out of control at times. But, its thier money and it keeps the economy rolling along. Frank, I think you need 2 more sets of B4 pluses to ensure a solid economy. Come on, do your part for the country."

I would do it in a heart beat but am afraid that doing so just might be the very thing that sends Geoff straight to the looney bin for good! Just kidding, Geoff, just kidding...

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."

 

[Geoff L]

With you Frank anything is possible and I'll survive should that day come. Well maybe, if seriously medicated!
Kidding about the meds...:b

In a room of the monster size mentioned multipul subs would be most/more than likely needed to get the clean output desired at the spl level he chooses to listen at..

BUT, thats NOT what I'm talking about here.

And the running sub test in the now name changed SGHT has shown some things that might surprise even more seasoned subber's. But who aside from maybe a very few have access to that kind of measuring equipment. Most "average" HT'ers could not hear the difference between 3% dist @ 20-Hz and 10% @ 20Hz, I'd bet money on that.
Note average HT'er not seasoned hardcore music listeners.

Frank m,
I guess I could just let you purchase a couple B4's and just have them shipped here and I'll add them to the 4-SVS-12's, THEN I can be seriously over sub'ed also! Kidding!

I only use one cloned 2039-PC now for HT and use 2-12"sealed ED subs for music. But seems I'm under Woofed badly compared to many here, oh what to do.

Got to admit, IMAO with your last post Frank, excellent. Nice to keep it light and add some humor to the discussion...

The Under Subbed
Geoff

 

[Robert Cowan]

i would like to add another unscientific explaination to dual subs (or more). if you have speakers that have a really "full sound", smaller, or single subs really cant fill in like the speakers can.

my speakers are dipole, and almost 6ft tall... they can fill a room with a TON of sound. a single sub, while producing high spl's, seems to get lost still...

 

[frank manrique]

quote:

"You might be amazed at how many so called 'overkill' sub woofers can't reproduce properly the output it's given.

Of course this is all speculation on my part as I don’t have the equipment to do this and verify. However based on some plots posted here by Chu Gai (I think) and a running article in AV Ultimate (Stereophile) that ran a test on many top subs ($500 to 10K) that used Waterfall plots, I’ve become to believe that nearly all subs fall short reproducing the low end energy that is present in the signal."

The one factor that seems to be overlooked more than others in its rank of importance during playback is the DYNAMIC COMPRESSION that took place with every tested subwoofer unit when Keith ran those awfully telling "waterfalls" charts for AV Ultimate.
That one factor alone told me far more about what to expect in actual use if I were to try all of the tested/featured subwoofers in my system.

Btw, I dully noted that Mark Seton's Servo Drive did much, much better than any other tested sub, including the multi-driver, self-powered Genelec $10K system.
Quite a feat, imho!

So...perhaps one of my several aims in amassing the many subbass systems currently housed in my humble digs now becomes patently obvious (hint: it isn't just the diminution of distortion component levels!) as a part of my overall intended long term goals...

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."

 

[ChrisBee]

This acoustic power argument has been going on for decades in the hifi music world. Quad once tried to reproduce the sound of a small drum for a live audience. Decades ago now. I vaguely remember them running out of power amps and speakers before getting close. :b

Listening to music at a steady 100dB requires considerable subwoofer headroom and low distortion to make any impact at all. A "comfortble" 110dB maximum is only a start.

I listen to music with a "flat" setting on the subwoofer. Because it sounds natural to me at a "loud" 85-90dB.

My wife sets the subwoofer hot at 100dB and still complains it's nothing like a concert! I'm afraid I have to agree with her. :b

A light touch of a bass drum in a girl's street marching band can out-wallop any subwoofer!

Compared to a jazz quartet drummer playing indoors the girl drummer is an acoustic flea. Compared with an amplified rock drummer, at a live concert, a jazz drummer is an acoustic flea.

I remember Wilson Pups in a very small, hotel demo room. Driven by two giant Krell monoblocks they got quite close to a real drum sound on sheer impact. At a steady 105dB at two metres.(C-slow) Though there was still something missing.

I think I realise what Frank's actually up to now. The endless search for reality. Not overblown bass. Because he calibrates carefully. But real life bass transients as they occur in everyday, real-world situations. He actually has the audacity to try and reproduce the leading edge of real sounds. Of course he will fail. But he'll have great fun in the attempt.

Don't believe all this? Then let your kids loose with an empty paint tin, a can or even an oil drum!

During the loudest peaks you can manage on your HT/AV system: Try giving your suspended wooden floor a tap with a hammer. Your kilowatt "killer" system is really just another flea on the broad backside of real life.

Pardon? :b

ChrisBee

 

[Greg Kolinski]

bowls to move involuntary, now that’s overkill


So Mike, a good rule of thumb would be "when you have to wear adult diapers to watch a movie,you have gone a little too far"



Greg

 

[Mike Keith]

I didn’t interpret the plots that way, and from what I read in the article neither did the author. The Genelec trounced every sub in the test by a good margin, although the Servo drive was the closest (second place). Maybe I misinterpreted something but it seemed very clear on the plots. However the Genelec is a $10,000 sub, and I’m sure a few properly placed Servo Drive units could match or exceed the Genelec’s performance for less money in the real world, so no matter.

 

[steve nn]

Hey now Steve, my Sony Super Boom Box carry away system with 3 selection mega bass, rocks! I spent months in serious listening session before deciding to purchase. The SQ is incredible on this thing and Ref is reached with ease... If memory serves me correct Geoff you set up some perimeters in this Thread earlier by stating This is not a thread for the people with begining HT's sub & systems, but for the people who have decent set up's and HQ-sub/s, Ok I'm punned out and will be good.

In response to your original question, the answer will vary. I'll come clean. For me personally it is a SVS dual cylinder set-up. One actually for normal listening with the extra on hand for -well- those times. Three were a little over the top on what I could detect distortion wise in my HT. We get very good performance at three seating positions with my choice of placement. This works out very well in our situation. (Wife and kids don't care) and generally no more than a few friends over at viewing time. I'm sure one PB2+ or 2-Ultra would be very adequate also. I'll let you know as options permit. :wink:

 

[Jack Gilvey]

I would consider it overkill if you have more than enough woof to reproduce all LF content present on media at the desired level. How many of these "bass-heds" do you really think can do that?

No one really "needs" any of this, though...so if you can afford it, do what you enjoy and don't worry if others don't approve.

 

[Mark Seaton]

You need to qualify what is meant by "enough woof to reproduce all LF content." To how low a frequency? Within what distortion limits? and as or more important to me, with what ammount of allowable compression? One factor most simply don't equate is that just because you can pump more power in and get some max SPL, it doesn't do you much good if there is 3-6dB of power compression. If the compression onsets above the levels you calibrated at, the input signal will never drive the output to the proper levels. To put this in some perspective, consider that at 6dB of compression, you've essentially reached a point where your increase in drive level is only matching that of 1/4 the input power you are delivering. That's a lot of wasted power.

For those with sealed systems, the question of more should be followed with what you will do with more. There is no "hard limit" to low frequency extension in a sealed system, just a matter of power and excursion. In quadroupling the number of woofers with a sealed system, you have the potential to EQ the response to be flat to the same levels but 1 octave lower. Of course the flip side is that you might have achieved similar with a big vented or PR based subwoofer or two, yet the tuning of the enclosure places practical limits on the low extension.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Low enough, clean enough, and loud enough for Keith Yates? Gimme all those scenes as they were encoded. 7Hz and all...

A big IB is what I would have in mind for my ideal system.

 

[Ryan Schnacke]

This certainly seems to be the most practical way to insane levels of output. Franks many SVS's are certainly are an impressive display but consider Paul W's IB with 18 of the 15" DVC's. Thats, what, 45 liters of displacement? Granted its a sealed alignment vs the ported SVS's. But think how much room space it requires to get enough box or cylinder subs in a room to reach these levels of excess.

How about this? 8 of the PE 15" IB drivers in a manifold IB. You'd only need 800 - 1000 watts to drive it so grab a $200 Nady pro amp and a BFD. You'd have a subwoofer with 20 liters of displacement for less than $1500. That's like having 4 sealed Tumults!!! Or perhaps similar to 2 vented/PR'd Tumults. The Acoustic Visions "Everest" is considered a terrific value at $2500 plus $300 to $400 shipping plus $???? for amplification.

 

[frank manrique]

quote:

"I remember Wilson Pups in a very small, hotel demo room. Driven by two giant Krell monoblocks they got quite close to a real drum sound on sheer impact. At a steady 105dB at two metres.(C-slow) Though there was still something missing."

I heard a similar "test" done with both the Puppies and a pair of Wilson small subs (believe the bass units had two 8" drivers per side, but might be mistaken) at one of the Southern California Audio Society meetings that took place at a "high-end" audio (and video too as they were beginning to gear up for HT even then!) boutique store or shop in the San Fernando Valley area years, years ago (MIke Moffat was our special guest and demoed his digital equipment that night--the chap exhibited great sense of humor and talent to spare, making the meet most memorable for us! ). However, I didn't hear anything closely resembling real live drums from the Wilson transducers as dynamics and hard transients sounded compressed and blunted to these drummer's/bassist-wannabe's ears!

"I think I realise what Frank's actually up to now. The endless search for reality. Not overblown bass. Because he calibrates carefully. But real life bass transients as they occur in everyday, real-world situations. He actually has the audacity to try and reproduce the leading edge of real sounds. Of course he will fail. But he'll have great fun in the attempt."

Yep...no overblown bass for me (too unrealistic, me thinks, though I do indulge myself listening to music at rather spirited SPLs from time to time! Having the capability to do so is just too tempting!).
Careful calibrating? Oops...I better pay more attention to that area! :b
Audacious alright...and half broke too!
Yes...I know I will fail, Chris...because I have yet to hear a sound system that can get close to sounding like the real thing; my systems isn't so different as to be the purveyor of that reality... but am sure having one hell of a blasting good time doing it! Cheers!...

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."