With WKRP, Wonder Years and Batman now a reality, what's the next holy grail? (1 Viewer)

[smithbrad]

1) i think the studios highly value their original filming. i say this for various reasons. first, it is a limited commodity. the shows that have been created are just that. they cant add any more to this. they of course can film a new show. but compare the cost of transferring a show already on film, to that of shooting a completely new series from beginning to end.

if they didnt value their show, they would not be holding onto it so dearly, and charging exorbitant fees for it. all this shows me that they place a high value on it. so for me, it is only a question of when, not if the show will be released.

But what about shows that have been sitting in their valults for 50 years and were never ever transferred from film to video for syndication? These have not been seen by anyone for 50 years. True, they have stored and not destroyed the film elements, but how is that showing high value in the product? It has been stated that transferring a show from film elements can cost thousands of dollars an episode. If they didn't feel that was a risk they would have done it with all shows long ago and made them available, but they haven't. Why? Unless possibly because they don't value them as much as you think.

And as for charging high costs, if a studio really isn't in the business of releasing older content or prefers to do it in house when they do, and someone knocks on their door asking (i.e., an independent), chances are they are going to quote a high price since that is what business generally does.

Yes, new shows cost more money to produce them transferring older shows, but that is what they do. Why do you think so? Maybe because even with that cost, new shows have the potential to bring in more money. New shows play on major networks and cable stations with major advertising benefits. New shows catch the publics attention. They aren't regulated to small independents for syndication like older shows. For the studios, the differences between new content and older content in syndication has not changed and never will.

2) the idea of making a series is to sell it. the human equation does not change. a show that has value today in that regard, will have value at any time in the future. a show like 222 was well-written, and well-acted, and the meaning of the show will always have value. so at any point in time, all a releaser would need to do is some advertising. a well written show can be easily advertised to sell.

I watched Room 222 when originally aired and i would watch it again. However, while well written and acted, it can be dated at times. Boston Public was done in the 90's about school issues with teachers and students, and was current to the times. It would probably do much better in syndication then Room 222 for the majority of people.

The studio could pay to remaster Room 222 to bring the elements up to par for syndication, advertise it, and have it syndicated on some indpendent channel. But they haven't. Why? Maybe because it wouldn't justify the costs to do so. The human equation and well written and acted shows are not something that could only be done in the past, they are done now and are up-to-date with current moral and social issues. I think the main issue is that while production values and quality are higher in much of todays programming, so is the explicity nature dealing with violence, sex, and language. While many here may have issue with some or all of those changes, it is obviously not the case with the general public. The studio's produces what sells, and the demographic for shows like Room 222 is not the major advertising demographic anymore.

3) every product has short-term dollars, and long-term dollars to it. just look at how paranoid these music rights holders are. as is evidenced in wonder years and wkrp, most of them are willing to sign agreements as long as they are not giving away the store in the FUTURE. i emphasize that word, because as stated, this is not just about current dollars.

The upcoming releases for Wonder Years, WKRP, and Batman, are all in a different ballpark then what I am pointing out here. Everyone knows they would make money if released because the demand has been stated over and over. The fans knew it and the studio knew it. The reason for all the pessimism here has been because of the frustration since they were known quantities and people have been waiting 10+ years for their releases. So it really was just getting all the righs holder to finally agree.

However, once they were announced you had a habit of declaring many other shows as evetually coming that are in a completely different status. These are the types of shows I'm referencing. Shows that were never transferred and have stayed dormant for 50 years, shows that have seen little syndication, shows that failed in early release attempts, shows with little name recognition. We see with CBS what they have remastered. We see what WB is doing with their catalog. We see that the upper eschelon of shows have been released. We know that the farther down the list we go the more costly and risky the venture is for any of them to be released. The long term value is in syndication and that means HD going forward, which costs more to prepare for. What we are questioning is how far into that catalog they are willing to go and how much risk they are willing to take. It would appear things are starting to level off by all indications.

This isn't all based on just generic business assumptions, it is based on the history of this market and what has been successful and what hasn't. Sure, some shows will sneak past this because an Encore picks up the cost and they can be pointed out as successes. But based on the overall numbers of how many of these types of shows have never seen the light of day in in syndication or a release, those successes are but a small percentage of reality.

 

[TravisR]

No offense to anyone but do any of you guys really think you're going to change Jimmy's mind?

 

[smithbrad]

No offense to anyone but do any of you guys really think you're going to change Jimmy's mind?

One can only hope, but in realty, nope.

 

[DisneySwan1990]

Ed

 

[jimmyjet]

And as for charging high costs, if a studio really isn't in the business of releasing older content or prefers to do it in house when they do, and someone knocks on their door asking (i.e., an independent), chances are they are going to quote a high price since that is what business generally does.

hi brad,

you make many fine points, and i understand your reasoning, based upon your interpretations.

so i thought i would just counter a couple of your points.

the only reason why a studio would charge a high price to discourage small independents is that they have plans for it themselves.

otherwise, why not make a few dollars ?

 

[jimmyjet]

hi brad,

the reason i keep bringing up wonder years, is because you guys kept saying it was near to impossible to overcome the music rights.

and i kept saying that eventually people want to make some money, as opposed to no money.

that is a fact now about that show - you guys were 100% incorrect on that.

just think about that now, when you now possess the same feeling of correctness about your current stance.

 

[jimmyjet]

One can only hope, but in realty, nope.

hi travis and brad and gary and others,

when no one else agreed with me, i boldly went where no one else would go - i said wonder years would be out. it was.

i am now making what you guys would call even a bolder statement - that room 222 will come out.

will you guys agree to state that you are wrong when this show is released ?

and not come back and tell me that i picked a high quality show that someday would be released, and they wont go any further into the shelves ?

 

[Gary OS]

hi brad,

the reason i keep bringing up wonder years, is because you guys kept saying it was near to impossible to overcome the music rights.

and i kept saying that eventually people want to make some money, as opposed to no money.

that is a fact now about that show - you guys were 100% incorrect on that.

just think about that now, when you now possess the same feeling of correctness about your current stance.

Okay, I have to interject here. Jimmy, we were not incorrect about The Wonder Years. What all of us were saying is that the show would almost assuredly never be released intact because of all the music. And guess what? We were right. Even the upcoming Time Life set is going to have subbed music! Sure, most of it (around 90% if reports are accurate) will be original, but not all of it will be. So technically, those of us saying it would never be released intact are still correct.

Now, am I glad it's being released even with the edits? Sure I am. But let's not pretend that this means we were "100% incorrect", as you say. That's being a bit dishonest in my book.


Gary "just had to point that out" O.

 

[Gary OS]

hi travis and brad and gary and others,

when no one else agreed with me, i boldly went where no one else would go - i said wonder years would be out. it was.

i am now making what you guys would call even a bolder statement - that room 222 will come out.

will you guys agree to state that you are wrong when this show is released ?

and not come back and tell me that i picked a high quality show that someday would be released, and they wont go any further into the shelves ?

Sure, I'll be glad to take you up on that. But you can't have a nebulous "some time in the future" prediction. That's like me saying that some winter day here in central Florida it's going to snow a foot. It might not happen in my lifetime. It might be a thousand years from now. But someday it's going to happen and no one can argue with me because I've got all of time to be right. But if I said, "I guarantee it's going to snow a foot here in Central Florida within the next 5 years - anyone want to bet?", I'd have plenty of people lining up and laying their money down. So unless you want to put a reasonable time limit on your prediction, it means nothing because you can always appeal to the vast, unknown "future."

How about this. Are you willing to say it will be out, complete and uncut, remastered in HD, within the next 5 years? I'll have plenty of respect for you if you want to make that prediction. I won't agree, but I'll respect the heck out of you for doing it.


Gary "not trying to argue or be a 'wise guy', just pointing out an element of these predictions that should be considered" O.

 

[jimmyjet]

gary,

you guys were HIGHLY incorrect. is that better ?

come on - give me credit for what you guys would have said i was going way out on the limb on that one.

there are many reason why 222 and other shows have not yet been released.

most of us are simply not privy to what the bigwigs know.

although i think we can stipulate that the studios will first release stuff that brings in the most immediate profit.

here is a scenario that perhaps none of you have thought about. and no doubt there are others that i havent considered.

but there may come down the line the ability to transfer these shows at a fraction of today's costs.

gosh, technology improves leaps and bounds.

so on good quality shows that dont have a high degree of recognition to bring in immediate dollars, it may be a smart thing to wait.

 

[jimmyjet]

hi gary,

i cant do that, because i truly dont think 5 years is very long.

but i understand your frustration with wanting a time limit.

so i guess we may be at a bit of an impasse.

 

[jimmyjet]

however, if the studio throws it away, or simply just gives it away, then i will stipulate that the studio finds no value to it.

so at least you have the possibility of being proven correct, tomorrow.

is that fair ?

 

[Gary OS]

gary,

you guys were HIGHLY incorrect. is that better ?

come on - give me credit for what you guys would have said i was going way out on the limb on that one.

I know you probably think I'm just appealing to some technicality, but I don't see it that way. In my mind (and I bet the mind of everyone else) when we would say, "The Wonder Years won't be released because of music issues" we weren't thinking about it coming out with edits. At least that wasn't a part of what I was getting at. My point was that I highly doubted it would ever be released because there was simply too much music to clear. And that's still what we are talking about. Yes, it's being released but not in uncut form. There are edits. Now, had you said to me before the news of it's release that one day it would come out, but with edits, I'd have been more apt to agree with you. But that wasn't what I was getting at so I'm not going to say I was HIGHLY incorrect. I was incorrect in that I didn't consider edits. That's all.


Gary "bottom line: I'm glad it's being released, even with the edits" O.

 

[Mike Frezon]

This dialogue has ceased to be about the topic: those holy grails that people now desire pending the recent news of the unexpected releases of Batman, Wonder Years and WKRP.

It has instead become a "nyah, nyah, nyah...I was right and you were wrong" dialogue which is about as interesting to read as the instructions on how to install vinyl fencing (I've had a long weekend installing fence posts!).

LETS MOVE ON!

 

[HenryDuBrow]

Wonder Years is - technically - in a better position than WKRP, every song could theoretically be replaced with junk and scenes still left intact. They'd sound awful for sure and the mood eliminated, but words spoken would remain which to some fans will always be enough to enjoy it. I'm not a fan myself so I won't be getting it, but most of its fans just might be very pleased with all the clearing results and that's what counts.

 

[Brian Himes]

hi guys,

this is a comment in general, when we are discussing a situation.

some things are facts, and cant be interpreted. for example, the circumference of a circle is pi times the diameter.

but much information that we get is not like that.

in this specific situation, i have carefully and exactly specified my reasoning.

and so have others. however, it is based upon interpretation.

for example, we can see different things our govt does. and if 10 of us comment on a particular action, we will probably get 10 different conclusions as to why the govt did the particular action, and what it represents as far as predicting future actions.

our conclusions will be greatly affected by assumptions that we make, as well.

i have made some assumptions that i tend to think are much more relevant than others here. no one can know positively how correct those assumptions are.

1) i think the studios highly value their original filming. i say this for various reasons. first, it is a limited commodity. the shows that have been created are just that. they cant add any more to this. they of course can film a new show. but compare the cost of transferring a show already on film, to that of shooting a completely new series from beginning to end.

if they didnt value their show, they would not be holding onto it so dearly, and charging exorbitant fees for it. all this shows me that they place a high value on it. so for me, it is only a question of when, not if the show will be released.

2) the idea of making a series is to sell it. the human equation does not change. a show that has value today in that regard, will have value at any time in the future. a show like 222 was well-written, and well-acted, and the meaning of the show will always have value. so at any point in time, all a releaser would need to do is some advertising. a well written show can be easily advertised to sell.

i think the majority here are of the opinion that something has to have a known actor, such that humongous sales will appear within a week. and no doubt they would probably release these first, to garner in big bucks in a short timeframe.

but just how many of these kinds of shows are there ? and in the long run, they wont sell as much as the well-written shows. cuz guess what ? 10 years from now there will be a whole new slew of famous actors to exploit, and what will be left is a 50-year old show, that is written well, acted well, and has meaning to people versus a 10-year old show that has actors that no longer are in the limelight, and in a show that may not really be all that good.

3) every product has short-term dollars, and long-term dollars to it. just look at how paranoid these music rights holders are. as is evidenced in wonder years and wkrp, most of them are willing to sign agreements as long as they are not giving away the store in the FUTURE. i emphasize that word, because as stated, this is not just about current dollars.

peace out to all of you guys, as well !!

Jimmy,

Your points are well taken, but you still seem to keep missing one very important factor: an audience. No audience = no money or profit. As several others here have stated time and time again, the audience for most of the TV shows from 1950s to the 1980s is shrinking by the day. Recently there was a news story on one of the evening news shows (possibly CBS evening news as that is the only news show I tend to catch now and then) that advertisers are no longer targeting the Baby Boomer Generation. Apparently they have passed their prime and are no longer a viable money making demographic. The Baby Boomer Generation and to a certain extent, Generation X, were once the desired audience for just about anything from the 1950s to the 1980s. Well, now those folks are on fixed incomes and therefore no longer have the throwaway cash for things like TV shows on DVD. And, quite honestly, most of them see no need to pay for something they used to watch and in some cases still watch for free. Add in the fact that most of the shows that have yet to be released are one or two season shows that very few people even remember. Let alone care about ever seeing again. Yes, there are exceptions, but on the whole they just don’t care about these long forgotten obscure TV shows. The studios are quite aware of this. So, no audience = no release.

You also have to factor in just how visible have some of these shows been in the last twenty years or so. As an example, Room 222. Room 222 while in its day was a rather popular show and it won a few awards for the acting, writing, etc. I don’t recall what Emmy Awards it won. It may have not won a single one. I don’t recall. Sorry, but right at the moment I don’t feel inclined to research it. Let’s just say it did. Now, in the 30+ years since the show went off the air in 1974, the series has had little to no exposure in terms of syndication. Therefore the show has little to no name recognition. Most people today (at least those that weren’t around for the original run) just don’t remember it or have ever heard of it. Even if people (the ones that were around for the original run) do remember it, they don’t feel the need to revisit it. In the broad scheme of things, Room 222 just doesn’t matter anymore to just about anyone but the most avid of collectors. So, season one got released and it sold a few thousand copies. Enough for Shout to try season 2. It sold only a few hundred copies. Yes, the less than pristine picture quality is directly responsible for the failure. However, the picture quality wasn’t as bad as everyone has made it out to be but that is a matter of taste. What one person finds acceptable another person will find unacceptable. Either way the damage was done. Room 222 on DVD is no longer a viable property. At least not without extensive restoration work which Fox seems to be unwilling to undertake. Even if Fox does the restoration work and releases a complete series set, given the past damage and everything outlined above, I doubt that the show would be a huge seller. In the end Fox would probably end up losing money. I feel that just about any show from 1950 to 1980 that has not been released yet would probably meet the same fate. As someone here pointed out, just about all of the easy stuff has already been released.

You also keep attaching these intrinsic values on these shows, high quality, reflective of the human condition, blah, blah, blah. While I agree that these are things that should keep any TV show or movie viable forever, the sad thing is studios and rights holders simply do not see it that way. Their product is just that a product. It’s something they can sell. They are not charging high licensing fees because they care about the property. Corporations don’t care about the property other than the amount of cash it can bring into the firm. They are not ‘holding onto it dearly.’ They are holding onto to it to make money. That is all. In their eyes, if you want to release said TV show on DVD it costs you X amount of dollars. Now how they arrive at their stated figure or licensing fee is another matter, but I can just about guarantee you that the intrinsic values you seem to place on these properties did not factor into their decision at all. These intrinsic values do not have any monetary value, and if they don’t translate into dollars and cents, they just don’t care. Also, these intrinsic values don’t seem to make any difference to the buying public either. Most of them just don’t care. While sad, it’s the truth. If the high quality of the show, the reflection of the human condition, etc was something that translated into sales then shows like The Mary Tyler Moore Show, or The Bob Newhart Show wouldn’t have taken 10 years to be released nor would they have lost money for the studio. It also wouldn’t have taken Oprah’s celebrity star power to get the rest of Mary Tyler Moore released. If going by just the high quality of the show, it’s reflection of the human condition, good acting, good writing, etc, then inspite of the less than stellar picture quality, Room 222 should have been a huge seller and we would have gotten the entire series. Not just two seasons. It has been my observation that the big studios (Fox, Warner, Universal) care more for their catalog of movies then their TV catalogs. The movies have always been their bread and butter.

You also say that it’s not a question of if but when a show will get released. Well, here we are 26 years since the invention of the CD and there are still several well known artists and albums that have not been released. A good portion of the Motown back catalog has yet to be issued on CD and those albums were huge sellers in their day. I have several albums that haven’t been released on CD. I also have several movies on VHS that haven’t been released on DVD. Yes, DVD and Blu-ray are new formats and studios haven’t quite exploited their catalogs to their fullest extent just yet. But, there are going to be leftovers. TV shows and movies that simply will not be released. Mainly because there isn’t an audience for the material. They are just no longer viable money makers. I doubt that there is much of an audience these days for old radio programs, silent movies, 78 rpm records, old phonograph records (cylindrical or platter style). Yes, there are niche market labels that re-issue these things but compared to the broader public these are miniscule markets. In a few years time, there maybe (and this is a huge maybe) a different mindset, but given all of the past evidence demonstrated by the studios I am not holding my breath.

I would like to hope that in the future you would think about these things (whether you think they are important or not) before you blindly declare that ‘it will come out.’

 

[Brian Himes]

Sorry, I posted the above before I saw the 'let's move on' post from the Mod. Sorry.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Apology accepted.

Lets now "move on."

Please.

 

[Frank Soyke]

Yeah, enough of this stuff and back to the real topic at hand here. So on that note, has anyone here considered the possibility of seeing seasons 3-5 of Room 222 released????

 

[Brian Himes]

Not in the state that Shout Factory issued seasons 1 and 2. It is highly unlikely that Fox is going to foot the bill for the extensive restoration that the series needs for a proper release. Even if they do decide to restore the series for future HD syndication, it is also highly unlikely that they will release it on DVD. Personally, I think the series is dead. It has had little to no syndication in the 30+ years since it went off the air and has little to no name recognition. A complete series set is the only way to go with it at this point. Shout couldn't make a go of season 2. They stated that they only sold a few hundred copies of season 2. Sad, because it is one of my personal favorites and I would pay top dollar for a fully restored complete series set.

As a side note, one of my other holy grail series is Lou Grant. Another one owned by Fox and part of the MTM library. So, I'm guessing no dice on that one as well.