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Why The Term "Joe 6 Pack" Must stop being used (1 Viewer)

Jon Sheedy

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jun 30, 1997
Messages
205
Wat de deal wi dose linked posts? What the hell is that person trying to accomplish with that language?
Christ, only a fullscreen advocate could talk that way!!!! ;) OR a widescreen advocate pretending to BE a fullscreen advocate! :) :)
 

rick bie

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Mar 15, 2002
Messages
73
Maybe the problem isn't the term "Joe six pack" but how it is used.When the term J6P is used in a rant or when the rest of the paragraph it's used in is derogatory then its offensive.
I think we have a rather diverse membership here, when I came aboard (I am a newbie) I was rather overwhelmed after checking the forums and seeing posts saying "I only have $5000 to spend on speakers or $10000 is my budget for my TV", I felt that I was a J6P since my tv is only a 36" and the equipment models for the rest of my HT are never mentioned anywhere.
But I have since seen other setups which are smaller then mine, but I could tell they had a large investment in their sound system or they have 200 dvds while I have only 8 dvds. I have heard people speak of VHS like its a virus(sorry, but I have 100+ along with 200+ Beta).
My rambling point is that I prefer widescreen but that doesn't mean I look down on others because they want fullscreen or their HT is a 19" with a Elecrophonic stereo with headphones. Our connection is our love of the media, storytelling in it's varied forms.
htf_images_smilies_popcorn.gif

Rick
 

John_Berger

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2001
Messages
2,489
I wonder why some feel it's necessary? Why can't people simply respect others viewpoints without herding them under a derogatory name. Political Correctness is now a derogatory term replacing civility and respect. Being politically incorrect has become a badge of honor and licence for rudeness and disrespect. The term J6P is no different than the other slang terms used to describe groups we don't like or approve of, whether they be racial, religious, political, etc.
So is "elitist snob", yet I don't hear any calls to try to get the anti-widescreen crown to stop using that term. And don't try the "being better than them" excuse, because it won't fly and you know it.

"J6P" in this case means nothing more than apathy towards widescreen, whether that's from lack-of-information or a conscious choice to dislike widescren. Get over it.

How I long for the days when people (like Eddie Murphy) could make "derogatory" comments and everyone - including the targets - would laugh. Now we only have hypersensitivity and paranoia not to offend anyone. How sad.
 
M

MaxY

Hmmm I feel the need to post this and make it perfectly clear....
I'ze Be Not Melvin the Great!!!
Oh man that guy was screwy.
BTW I am not pro 4x3, I am only saying that it would be easiery to convert those 4x3 people if we did not start out by insulting them, which is quite a bit different from what your Buddy Melvin is talking about. :)
I am a Die Hard OAR fan and have been since long before DVD was even be dreamed up. I got in to LD way back not some much for the better picture, but for the fact they did letterboxing. Oh Wait that is a better picture.
Max:D
 

Ben Tallen

Agent
Joined
Aug 6, 2001
Messages
37
Reading over the passionate responses on this subject I'm noticing that the real issue isn't whether or not to use the term "J6P". It seems to be about whether or not "J6P" is an insult. Some members of this forum may insult the "willfully ignorant" about their opinions regarding OAR and in the process cast aspersions on their intelligence, breeding, etc., all the while calling them J6P. Then people think that if some insensitive ass is going to use the term it must be an insult. I personally side with those who believe that the J6P is neutral and can be used interchangeably with "the uninitiated" while being a lot easier to type.

Also, it is important to note that there are two types of J6P's out there, those who don't know and those who do know but don't care. We all feel a little aggravated at the second group but when someone on HTF attacks them they lump both groups together. I guess I'm saying it's okay to use J6P as long as you're careful about what else goes in your post.

So in conclusion: J6P: Good. Poor White Trash: Bad.

Ben
 

Randy D

Auditioning
Joined
Jun 30, 1997
Messages
4
Like Ben says, the term means different things to different people. The original use of the term seemed to apply to the average person on the street. To me, you could have substituted "mainstreamer," but that's not a word and Joe Six Pack is much more colorful. At the time, only the early adopters (mostly home theater enthusiasts) had DVD players. The issue back then was how to inform JSP (which is much easier to type than the full term, but doesn't look as cool) of the evils of Divx and to point out the advantages of open DVD. Some of us were hoping that they would become converts so that DVD players would top the magical million mark and more movies would be released. Others warned of the dangers of DVD's becoming mainstream. Now the "mainstreamers" buy DVD's and have purchasing clout. Some of them like widescreen, some don't, but many are still JSPs. They haven't become weirdos like those of us who are obsessed with Hometheater.
I don't think the term has anything to do with intelligence or wealth or social status. JSP drinks Coors Light. I prefer Guiness. Does that maker me smarter? I love hearty red zinfandels. If JSP drinks wine it might come in a six-pack or a box and it's more likely to be something like white zinfandel. My siblings enjoy white zinfandel, can tolerate Zima and watch movies on VHS. They are intelligent (it runs in the family:)) and my brother has a higher income, nicer car, and bigger house than I do. He has started watching DVD's recently, which will bring him right up with the JSPs in that respect. Do I try to poke fun at his taste in beverages and infer that my choices are superior? You bet! But, it's all in fun.
My point is, if I have one after all this rambling, is it's the spirit of how the name is used that's more important than the name itself. Joe Six Pack is kind of a cool name. To me, it sounds better than Hometheater geek, but I am what I am.
Randy D
 

Phil Nichols

Second Unit
Joined
Sep 7, 2000
Messages
345
Max,

Where did you read "....no advocacy of P&S/Full Frame on this site......"? It's Friday and I'm looking forward to the weekend so maybe I can't read, but I can't find this "rule".

I'm a very "special" advocate of P&S.......now please let me explain before the tomatoes and rotten eggs start:

I have what I consider as being a "too small" screen on my Elite 16X9 RPTV - 58 diagonal inches, but it's all I could afford. My viewing room would be all screwed up if I sat closer than 10 feet from this screen. This screen size at 10 feet presents a very pleasing 1.78:1 aspect ratio widescreen HT viewing experience with it's combined actual height and width WHEN THE SCREEN IS FILLED. 2.35:1 aspect ratio OAR films disturb, and distract from, this great visual perspective due to their reduced height.

I would prefer either:

A) All commercial movies to be in 1.85:1 (..or 1.78:1)

or

B) All DVD's to be offered in two versions - OAR if they were made in 1.85:1, or Pan and Scanned from 2.35:1 down to 1.78:1 if they were made in 2.35:1

Barring A) or B) ever happening, I'm searching high and low for a progressive DVD player that offers high quality slight zooming so as to allow me to cut a little off the sides of and increase the height of, 2.35:1 aspect ratio films so I can view them as "converted" into 1.78:1 ratio - the video sweet spot shape for my HT situation.
 

Damin J Toell

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2001
Messages
3,762
Location
Brooklyn, NY
Real Name
Damin J. Toell
I would prefer either:

A) All commercial movies to be in 1.85:1 (..or 1.78:1)

or

B) All DVD's to be offered in two versions - OAR if they were made in 1.85:1, or Pan and Scanned from 2.35:1 down to 1.78:1 if they were made in 2.35:1

Scary. Just plain scary.

Your post should be a good wake-up call to all of those who thought that 16x9 screens would save OAR. It's obvious that we're in for many more problems down the road.

DJ
 

Vince Maskeeper

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jan 18, 1999
Messages
6,500


The HTF has very few policies dictating expression of opinions on this forum. However- we have found that because our entire mission statement directly includes respecting original aspect ratio, that it is in our best interest to declare this site simply PRO-OAR- and prevent arguments on the matter.

You are free to prefer or watch whichever you'd like- but the HTF is absolutely a PRO-OAR discussion forum, and we ask that people who feel otherwise respect this decision.

thanks

Vince Maskeeper
 
M

MaxY

Phil,
Oddly enough my widescreen set has what I call a Widescreen zoom and the purpose of it is to zoom a 2:35 movie to remove the black bars from the screen.
I have never not once used this feature. I would gladly let you have it. :) (BTW it works even in prog mode)
As for where I read about no P&S advocacy on this site it is mentioned quite clearly in rules you were supposed to read when you signed up. As others have pointed out. :)
But I must admit, I think yours is the first case of someone with a widescreen set wanting 2:35 movies scaned to 16x9 that I have read about. :)
Max
 

John P Grosskopf

Second Unit
Joined
Jan 21, 2001
Messages
313
You are free to prefer or watch whichever you'd like- but the HTF is absolutely a PRO-OAR discussion forum, and we ask that people who feel otherwise respect this decision.
I mean no insolence or personal attack here, so please don't take it as such.

We who post on this forum respect the above quoted decision as it has been made absolutely clear to us that we have no choice in the matter. That is perfectly clear. This does not does not mean however that we fully understand the reasoning behind it, and can easily see that it might actually work against those of us who support OAR. Allow me to explain.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the whole Original Aspect Ratio stance of this forum was to end the closed minded thinking that results in the horrors of Pan and Scam.

Having a rule that completely closes out one side of the argument (right or wrong) expresses the very same type of close mindedness that the OAR crowd (me included) is trying desparately to fight. All kidding aside (no smilies in this post), this just seems a bit to close to being hypocritical for my tastes, and clearly acts to undermine the goals of the OAR supporters.

Instead of patently prohibiting one side of the argument, I'd glady have an intelligent debate with anyone who prefers P&S over widescreen any day if they could intelligently and coherently make their case. With both sides of the issue on display for everyone to see (including a broad segment of the DVD-buying public and studio suppliers), I'm confident that the OAR crowd would make the better case and many JSPs (yes I feel comfortable using the shorthand term) out there might actually be converted over to the OAR cause. Without that avenue available, this forum essentially becomes a pulpit for preaching to the already converted. How can we ever hope change JSPs point of view if he/she is never invited to the discussion?

Not that I'm a big biblical scholar or anything, but Jesus didn't party with those who were already on his side. He instead went into the houses of the sinners where his guidance was needed to overcome, what was in his view, shortcommings of their "reasoning" for lack of a better term. That's essentially the same mission of the OAR crowd, though not nearly so Cecil B Demill (oops, a joke broke loose there...sorry).

Metaphor aside, what I'm essentially saying is that we have to communicate with these people if we actually want to change attitudes. Leaving them out of the equation for any reason eliminates the chance for that communincation, and resorts to the same unwillingness to see the other side of the argument that frustrates many of us OAR supporters.

Some have argued on this thread that whole JSP designation itself may actually limit the discussion as well. I don't personally feel that way, as anyone who takes the term that seriously would not be open to a truly intelligent discussion anyway.

All I can say is I'm not afraid to take JSP on, and would glady welcome him/her to come to our forum playground. But right now, he/she is not allowed play with us.
 

Phil Nichols

Second Unit
Joined
Sep 7, 2000
Messages
345
Vince,

I apologize for not reading everything possible. I did read the "Posting Guidelines" and couldn't find OAR-only there.

Perhaps the title of this forum should be changed slightly to make it less general sounding so as to imply that a certain type of Home Theater Software is only what's permitted to be discussed.

(I consider aspect ratio as merely another parameter in our HT setups that should be adjustable by us HT viewers to optimize our individual viewing experience in accordance with our preferences. As such, I don't consider aspect ratio as any more holy than, say, contrast or black level settings.)

Thanks for setting me straight.
 

John Thomas

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2000
Messages
2,634
Very well put, Mr.Grosskopf.

At the pith of this dilemma is whether or not the term 'Joe Six Pack" is being used in a derogatory manner. If so, then the user itself is in violation of the rules here on the forum.

[rant]3. While we encourage lively debate, we will not tolerate personal attacks. Any person attacking another forum member, will receive a warning and have their message removed. Any future incident thereafter, will result in that member being removed from the forum. [/rant]

Of course, most of the usage of the term is in general, sweeping examples. Basically to refer to those who prefer P&S but it has been used to reference others who express differing opinions on hardware, software, etc. If one of the purposes of this forum is to educate the masses about why P&S is inferior then calling those who initially prefer it names really doesn't do a good job of throwing the welcome mat out.

Teacher: What color is this? (points at a blue square)

Kid: It's red!

Teacher: Ha! What a maroon (J6P)! It's blue you doof!

(laughter ensues in the classroom, kid is embarrassed)

It's pretty simple, really. You wouldn't want to be made fun of/called names would you? Think about it people.
 

Glenn Overholt

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 24, 1999
Messages
4,201
At this point, I feel that the 'Pro OAR' stance needs to be clarified, and I'd compare it to this.

As a member of 'The Blue Corvette Club', a member joins and tells us that he prefers yellow. You can see the problem here.

As for being kind so that we won't alienate JP6's that might see this board, I can only say that you missed the above paragraph - so read it again!

Time and time again I have read many stories, and they basically fall into just a few grups, and these have been explained here too, but there are some people that totally understand why the black bars are there, but their priority is to fill their 4:3 set, so OAR is out.

So they like yellow (this is their loss, not mine), but they would have to don asbestos suits in order to post here. We cannot convert them, in any way, shape or form. (Ok, maybe if brought them a WS TV) - which brings me back to square one. No demand, no WS TV's, no WS TV's etc....

We are a minority here. No one is going to miss our money, and ranting about AOR is only going to inflame them. Some of us do come across the opportunity to explain our stance and even convert some, and that is great, but calling a duck by any other name just won't work, and thus J6P suit me just fine! I can easily think of plenty of much more colourful words to use in their place, but I'm basically a nice guy.

Glenn
 

Michael Silla

Second Unit
Joined
Jul 27, 2001
Messages
313
This is one of those topics that leads to some passionate discussion!.
As several people have already mentioned. we are all "Joe 6 packs" when it comes to hobbies that we have no interest in. With this in mind, I really think that we have to alter our approach to friends and family who aren't savvy on the topic of aspect ratios.
It's no fun having a informal conversation or debate with someone about this topic (or any other for that matter) when you are prepared and they aren't. Usually both parties leave with antagonised feelings. Use your knowledge and HT equipment to convince your friends one visit and friend at a time.
Don't get frustrated. Some people just will not be convinced. I guess another example of a similar situation in a different hobby of mine (cars) would be the use of winter tires in winter. Thankfully, in this example there are more "beleivers" but I still run into people who SWEAR to me that winter tires would NOT make a difference for them in winter driving.
I am still relatively new to this hobby having just purchased a Hitachi RPTV (53UWX10BA). I am loving it and for the first time really realizing how much of the film experience I was missing ( ;) ) watching movies on my 27 inch Trinitron. I ususlly leave 2.35:1 movies alone nas the small black bars don't bother me.
I read Phil's comments and personally I have to disagree with him on this matter. I perfer to watch ALL of the film the way the director intended it to be viewed. That said, I respect Phil's right to "zoom-in" on the picture if he wishes to. I didn't pay for his set ;).
I am going to have some friends over tonight. No doubt I'll get some questions regarding the black bars......
One visit at a time..... :D
 

Dan Lindley

Second Unit
Joined
Sep 19, 2000
Messages
396
As a teacher sometimes asked to help others teach, one of my mottos is:

"hold high standards, and help people reach those standards"

OAR is the standard, and we should help people appreciate why. Simple enough.

As for all sorts of market polls, and so forth, I detest companies that won't issue OAR and that mess with the original product. But I hope the digitalization and widescreenization of the US will eventually bring OAR to all releases.

What seems a bit overblown on HTF is to panic when so many great releases continue to come out. OAR seems to live, IMHO (but willing to be convinced). On the flipside, what seems to pass the MAR crowd by is that widescreen is inevitable and that by buying MAR they are being scr*wed into repurchase (if they care, but about which the assumption that they do must in turn excite the studios...). What should excite the studios is whatever is the NEXT format; not MAR now to create repurchase. That cynical strategy simply invites anger.

In my early days, I did not know about OAR/MAR or anamorphic. Now I do. I won't buy anything but optimized releases; I do care that much. But I won't upgrade my old ones; I don't care that much. And I am willing to wait for new and proper releases; I do care that much.

So the studios won't make an extra dime by any cynical manipulations from the likes of me.

The key thing is I know new and proper releases will come. Why? 1. HDTV and the widescreenization of the US. 2. DVD is now such a huge format that the OAR only family was big enough to press discs for 2 years ago and will only grow huger two years from now.

A rare moment of optimism,

Dan Lindley
 

Phil Nichols

Second Unit
Joined
Sep 7, 2000
Messages
345
Folks, don't get me wrong - I love wideness - that's why I bought my Elite 58" 16X9 RPTV. I wouldn't have touched a 4X3 "big screen" with a ten foot pole. I even non-linearly (at the sides only) stretch 4X3 P&S (or original 1.33:1) presentations BACK OUT to 16X9 when I watch them.

My whole point is that 1.85:1 fits so well and looks so good, perspecitve-wise on my set, that I wish every modern film I watched on my set could be 1.85:1. If I had the flexibilty in a progressive DVD player, my only and whole point was that occasionally I would crop certain 2.35:1's down to 1.78:1, but not necessarily every 2.35:1. If I had a large enough screen, of course I'd never crop down from OAR.

As a case in point, how many of you have watched Lawrence of Arabia on your home theaters in it's original 2.76:1? If I could even get it in this ratio for my home use (the VHS/DVD versions aren't that I know of), I can guarantee you I wouldn't enjoy it on my 58" 16X9 unless I moved my seating way into about 5 feet from the screen.

Ideally, it's recommended you sit at a viewing distance of about 2.5 - 3.5 times the height of your screen (regardless of aspect ratio) in home theaters. This means 2.35:1 can be enjoyed perfectly on a 19 inch screen if you sit close enough to it.
 

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