Why the Black Bars? (1 Viewer)

[RobertR]

Theatrical movies are NOT all the "same ratio". They VARY in ratio (usually either 1.85:1 or 2.35:1). If TVs were made with a 2.35:1 ratio, you'd be complaining about the SIDE "black bars" that would be needed to accommodate the 1.85:1 ratio (and you'd probably get apopleptic over the size of the side bars needed for 1.37:1 movies).

You really need to get over your problem with the "black bars" and enjoy movies in their OAR.

 

[Mark B]

Your questions aren't dumb, in my opinion.

If they had made the new TVs match a 2.35:1 ratio there would still be black bars for 1.85:1, only they would be on the left and right sides of the screen. So no matter what the shape of the TV there will always be cases in which black bars will appear somewhere if the presentation is true to the original aspect ratio.

 

[Jari K]

Look, let´s say that we have a "theater movie" that´s 2.35:1 (as many are). Let´s also say that there would be a TV-set with the same 2.35.1-ratio (which won´t happen). They would "match" (no black bars).

Now, let´s say that we have a "theater movie" that´s 1.85.1 (as many are). Let´s continue to say that you still have that 2.35.1 TV-screen. This time you would have black bars with that 1.85.1 film.

Even with (hypothetical) 2.35:1 TV you can´t really win. With 4:3/1.85:1-films you would still have those black bars..

My point is, that:

a) There are movies in different aspect ratios. And always will be (at least 1.78.1/1.85:1 and 2.35.1/2.40:1). Further more, there are zillion of older movies that are 4:3 (and will always be 4:3). HD-formats weren´t just created for the "new films".

b) Widescreen TV-set has the fixed aspect ratio of 1.78:1.

=

Aspect ratios won´t always "match" the TV-set.

=

Black bars.

Short answer to your questions is, that it´s best just to get used to those black bars. They´re not fully going anywhere, even if the 2.35:1-TV would be suddenly created..

Perhaps in your case the projector would help?

 

[Pete Lee]

Money. At the time HDTV aspect ratios were being set, the consumer electronics companies balked at an 1.85 aspect ratio because the cost of manufacturing at that ratio was very high and not worth the incremental benefits. You gotta remember that the standard was set at a time when CRT was the dominant display technology and it was very costly to manufacture glass at a 1.85 aspect ratio. The 16x9/1.78 ratio was close enough but also cheaper to make. I seem to remember the Directors Guild pushed for a 1.85 aspect ratio but obviously, it didn't work out that way. Cost is also the reason why widescreen computer monitors are ANOTHER, differing aspect ratio, 16x10/1.6.

 

[Douglas Monce]

Yes but then you would have the same problem, losing some small parts of the original image.

Doug

 

[Seth T]

Keep in mind that movies aren't in a standard aspect ratio, even in the theatre. Haven't you ever been at the theatre noticed the matting (border) being moved with motors between the trailers and the start of the movie? It caught me off guard the first time I saw that.

 

[Douglas Monce]

Two things.

First of all you actually aren't getting the full 1080 resolution, but you are getting the full 1920 resolution because that is the horizontal number and a letterboxed images stretches to the edges of the screen.

Secondly 1.74:1 was chosen for HDTV because at the time the specs were settled on, TV makers didn't think they could produce a glass tube any wider than that and have them not break all the time. You have to understand that HDTV specs were designed before the advent of flat panel TVs.

Also if even if they used the widest format in movies for the basis of HDTV 2.35:1 (I know its not the widest but it is for 99% of movies) Then you would have to have black bars on the sides of the image for films that were shot 1.85:1 and 1.37:1. Any way you look at it, there are going to be black bars so that you can see the whole originally photographed image. Get used to it.

Doug

 

[Douglas Monce]

Seth is exactly right. In a movie theater they typically have a screen that is 2.35:1. But when they show a film that is 1.85:1, they mask off the sides of the screen with black material. Your TV does basically the same thing on the top and bottom of the frame for a wide screen movie, and on the sides for a 1.37:1 movie.

Doug

 

[Pete Lee]

I was doing some searching and stumbled across the glossary on Joe Kane's site, which has an entry on aspect ratio that was obviously written when the HD aspect ratio was still undecided. The entry says in part that "[t]he resolution of current display technology would suggest that 1.78 is the upper limit of our current capability," presumably referring to CRT displays, which is why HDTV eventually settled on 1.78, not 1.85 or even wider. The glossary also mentions that the Directors Guild apparently wanted to explore making 2:1 the aspect ratio for HDTV. Interesting although even it had been economically feasible, it may have been a solution that pleased no one since every movie would display black bars, either on the sides or top and bottom. The only programming that would fill the full screen would have been those produced specifically for HDTV.

Here's the link to the glossary entry if you want to read it:

Joe Kane Productions


I remember watching Robert Redford's The Horse Whisperer in the theatre and the movie starts in an 1.85 aspect ratio when it's set in New York City but then changes to 2.35 when it moves to the open country. The screen changed shape DURING the movie; the first and only time I've ever seen that.

 

[TonyD]

arent the bars NOT part of the resolution of the image.
in other words isnt the full 1080 or 720 or 480 lines enclosed only in the produced image of a 16x9 enhanced dvd.

i know someone will understand what i mean by that clunky description.


"
I remember watching Robert Redford's The Horse Whisperer in the theatre and the movie starts in an 1.85 aspect ratio when it's set in New York City but then changes to 2.35 when it moves to the open country. The screen changed shape DURING the movie; the first and only time I've ever seen that."
it has been done other times.

Disney's Brother Bear is another.

 

[Douglas Monce]

Galaxy Quest also did this. It starts at 1.85:1 when they are on Earth, and switches to 2.35:1 when they get into space. Sort of like Dorthy opening the door to OZ and the film goes from B&W to color. Unfortunately the DVD didn't follow this pattern.



Doug

 

[PaulDA]

Perhaps the HDM version can restore this? I don't remember noticing that (only saw it once at the cinema) but it would be cool.

 

[Douglas Monce]

No its not like an anamorphic DVD where the 16x9 image is squeezed into the 4x3 picture. HD has no anamorphic provision. A 2.35:1 image has black bars on the actual video itself, just as a 1.37:1 has the black bars on the sides.

Doug

 

[TonyD]

oh right, i forgot this was a HD question.

 

[Pete Lee]

Really? I saw Galaxy Quest in the theatre but don't remember this at all (and I enjoyed that movie much more than The Horse Whisperer). So how is the first part framed on the DVD? Is the 1.85 cropped to 2.35? Or does it use black bars on the side?

Oh, BTW, I don't think the screen should have altered during the presentation of The Horse Whisperer. Now that I think about it, I think it was set at 2.35 at the beginning but idiot that I was, I thought it was a projectionist mistake so I went to complain. They then changed the screen shape to 1.85 but then, when the movie shifted to 2.35, parts of the picture was projected on the wall! So they changed it back to 2.35.

 

[GusinCA]

Ahh, ok, so the crux of the matter is that there are several "wide screen" formats. That's the "problem" so to speak.
In a perfect world, HDTV would have been exactly the same ratio as every single movie out there, and every single movie out there would be in the same ratio that everyone agreed to in this perfect world.
No worries, I don't really mind the black bars, I just prefer the look of the whole screen being filled up, jut a personal preference.
I used to have a projector (720p) and a 110" 16x9 screen, I guess one didn't notice it as much as one does on a HDTV.
Next time I move I will get another projector, I miss the "movie" feeling I think you can only really get with a projected image. Again, just a preference, don't want to start another tizzy...

 

[Douglas Monce]

Galaxy Quest was a Super 35 film so the opening in the theater was just cropped to 1.85:1. Super 35 can be cropped at pretty much any aspect ratio.

On the DVD they just cropped the whole thing at 2.35:1

And you were right in the first place about The Horse Whisperer. A friend of mine saw it in the theater and called me as soon as he saw it going on and on about the aspect ratio change.

Doug

 

[Douglas Monce]

You could always get some black velvet material and create adjustable masks to cover your TV at the various aspect ratios. If you don't see the edges of your TV, I don't think the fact that they are different ratios will make a big deal to you.

I know there was a company that made masks for this that would fit the different sized TV screens, but I don't know if they are still in business.

Doug

 

[DaveF]

That's not a perfect world, as it removes creative choice from the filmmaker.

It's like saying, in a perfect world all photographs would be 4"x6" (no 5"x7", no 8"x10", and certainly not custom murals!) so all frames could be the same ratio.

 

[Stephen_J_H]

Two other examples of shifting aspect ratios during the movie are The Crocodile Hunter: Collision Course and Brother Bear. BB is 1.85:1 for the first 24 minutes with muted colours, then shifts to 2.35:1 for the remaining hour with brighter colours. In the case of TCH:CC, the movie constantly shifts between 1.85:1 and 2.35:1, with the plotline of the film being "wider" and the "show" segments in the narrower format. These are both properly presented on DVD.