Why is DLP so unpopular?

Discussion in 'Displays' started by DaveF, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. Scott Merryfield

    Scott Merryfield Executive Producer
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    Ed,

    If you read the first page of the 750 Series owners threads at AVS Forum, you will see specific mentioning of the 650 Series being a bulb DLP vs. LED DLP for the 750 Series.
     
  2. ManW_TheUncool

    ManW_TheUncool Producer

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    When it comes to something like this, it's always about humanly perceivable/appreciable thresholds, not about absolutes. Actually, that's far far more often the case than we tend to realize. [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Anyway, if the LEDs fire at the equiv of a 15x color wheel, I guess that should be good enough -- or at least waaay better than typical color wheel implementations. Just don't try to use the TV for any serious scientific experiments (or whatever other unintended "fun projects" [​IMG] ) that would bump up against the limits of the tech. [​IMG]

    _Man_
     
  3. Ed Moxley

    Ed Moxley Cinematographer

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    I have not read anything at AVS forums in years. I don't like the place. I don't like the attitude of too many of the people there. I'm a member, but just don't go there anymore. [​IMG]
     
  4. Patrick Sun

    Patrick Sun Moderator
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    The popularity of the flatscreens over RP-based DLP/LCOS sets among retailers is mainly due to:

    1. profit margin
    2. less per-unit storage space needed for flatscreens vs. RP sets.

    Sounds like a no-brainer if you're a retailer (online or b&m).

    The job of marketing from the manufacturers is to make the consumer think that flatscreens are the way to go (if you want to hang one on the wall), or want better viewing angles (personally, I wanted better viewing angles over any of the RP-based models, so I went plasma 18 months ago).

    The main initial purchasing decision advantage for RP-based set is mainly cost (larger surface area for dollar spent) over the flatscreens. (Another benefit is that replacing the bulbs when they go bad will prolong the cost of RP-based sets as well in terms of service, over having to buy a new set when the flatscreen set dies).
     
  5. ManW_TheUncool

    ManW_TheUncool Producer

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    The LED-based sets from Samsung (and probably also the new laser ones from Mits) no longer require regular bulb changes either -- though they do cost more (at about the cost of one bulb change or so in the case of Samsung's LED models). Still, the LED engines used right now are rated to last not quite as long as the current plasma tech though they should last plenty long enough for most people's usage, ie. should easily last 10 years (or much more) me thinks. I'd think other parts of these TVs might well malfunction or completely die by the time the LED engine (or the plasma phosphors or LCD backlight) wears out -- or you'd be more than ready to relegate the set to parttime/secondary duty in favor of something newer and (likely much) better by then.

    _Man_
     
  6. Dennis Nicholls

    Dennis Nicholls Lead Actor

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    I'll echo some of the previous comments. I have a 2005 Samsung DLP RPTV and a 2007 Optoma DLP front projector. Both have performed 5x5. The Optoma needed a power supply replacement under warranty.

    With regards the "rainbows". I can only see them if I personally move my head about while viewing.

    I prefer the DLP since it gives better blacks and contrast, as well as clarity for rapidly moving objects on screen. As a previous CRT FP owner, I see all too well the shortcomings of the LCD sets.

    Bulbs are expensive. If I had waited another couple of years I would have gone LED. But the cheapest sets you can own are the ones you already have. [​IMG]

    Try Craigslist for a used Samsung DLP RPTV and budget $300 for a new bulb.
     
  7. ManW_TheUncool

    ManW_TheUncool Producer

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    RE: bulb costs, I would add though that Samsung bulbs seem to cost less over time for each model. They may start out at ~$300 or so, but they seem to end up costing more like ~$150 after a few years. Of course, there are no guarantees about bulb costs in the future (nor the reliability of the color wheel, which seems quite vulnerable to wear-and-tear), so LED is most likely the best way to go w/ current Samsung RPTVs (unless you manage to find some incredible deal on a bulb-based one).

    And no, I would not recommend buying a used bulb-based DLP RPTV -- you should factor in the likelihood of the color wheel needing replacement, if you buy one.

    _Man_
     
  8. AmusingistheDawn

    AmusingistheDawn Stunt Coordinator

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    This is something I have been going over for a while. There are only a few things that I'm unsure about. The Samsung HL61A750 only have an aspect ratio of 10,000:1, while their LCD line starts at 30,000:1 and continues to increase, not to mention Plasmas are in the 1,000,000:1 range. What does this all mean, and how does it affect things? It is more or less this one question I have before I am SOLD on buying the 61" 750 DLP.
     
  9. Gregg Loewen

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    They might as also say "all purchasers will have free health insurance and life time prescription coverage". there is no such thing as 1m:1.

    Bottom line: you cant believe the specified #s.
     
  10. AmusingistheDawn

    AmusingistheDawn Stunt Coordinator

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    ...interesting. So what you would say is that I am still making the right move by purchasing a DLP instead of an LCD. I was originally thinking about a Samsung LN52A650, but now...i'm thinking more about purchasing a Samsung HL61A750. HUGE price difference if you consider the fact that I'm getting 61" instead of 52".
     
  11. DaveF

    DaveF Moderator
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    I've been reading about LCDs, Plasmas and DLPs, trying to understand their strengths and find good reviews. Online, I've not found anything yet helpful on RP DLP sets. But a few general tips I've found:

    * Manufacturer specified contrast ratios are all bogus.
    * Plasma generally have the best (darkest) blacks and best contrast ratios
    * LCDs are brighter. And when viewed in a brightly lit store can seem to have better contrast ratio than they would in a dark living room.
    * I can't find anything particularly useful on DLPs, except they're up to $1000 cheaper for same screen size and have much worse off-angle performance.
     
  12. Jesse Skeen

    Jesse Skeen Producer

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    There's still a few months for me to find a reason not to buy the 73-inch Mitsubishi DLP. That's the one I've had my eye on for a while and might finally save enough money to buy one in the next few months. I've heard lots of good and bad things about their reliability- some say they break all the time while others say they watch them every day for years and don't have any problems. The bulbs are around $100 which isn't too bad, I plan to keep a spare one on hand so I can change it as soon as it needs to.

    Picture quality looks good in the stores, even when they have too much ambient light so it should look good at home. I still need to find out if it will sense the aspect ratio flag on regular DVDs so it will switch between 4x3 and 16x9 modes automatically- I know this isn't an issue with Blu-Ray players but I have an all-region player with component outputs I'd like to use with it. I also need to find out if they will display closed captions on DVDs (NOT the player-generated subtitles, I'm talking about the old-fashioned TV-decoded captions which are also on many DVDs) hooked up through the component inputs- I know they don't work on HDMI so I'll have to also have a component output hooked up for when I want to see the captions. I've seen them not work through component on some sets but they do work on others, and don't know if that's determined by the player, TV or both. If anyone can answer these please do so!

    The biggest flat-panel sets of comparable size are around 60 inches, which would probably be big enough but all the ones I've seen cost over $5000, which is simply too much. If they're going to stop making DLP sets then I want a 73-inch LCD for under $3000!
     
  13. DaveF

    DaveF Moderator
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    Jesse,
    Have you seen any reviews on the Mits DLP that you can link to? Something I've wondered about: a brother in law has a top-end DLP projector from four years ago, and I've noticed that it has something like convergence or distortion issues in the corners. But he's never calibrated or adjusted his set...

    So I'm curious about any reviews you've seen.
     
  14. Gregg Loewen

    Gregg Loewen Video Standards Instructor, THX Ltd.
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    keep an eye out at Fry's...they have been selling a couple of Mits 73" models for $1300-$1375.
     
  15. AmusingistheDawn

    AmusingistheDawn Stunt Coordinator

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    Is amazon an authorized samsung dealer? I checked out Fry's and amazon is a few hundred dollars cheaper on a 61" DLP
     
  16. gene c

    gene c Producer

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    DLP.com reviews

    I can't find too many dlp reviews either. And the one's I linked don't look all that helpfull. Sorry, there's just not much out there.
     
  17. Al.Anderson

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  18. Jesse Skeen

    Jesse Skeen Producer

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    There's supposed to be adjustments in the service menu to straighten out the geometry, though the most accurate way to do this would be to manually adjust the projection lens inside. I don't know how easy that is to do- moving it in and out would also adjust overscan.

    There should be some way to focus the bulb so the amount of light is the same across the screen. I ran movie theater projectors for 9 years and the bulbs in those have to be focused when they're changed, and then again periodically.

    I've still gotta do more research before I finally pull the trigger, since I want something that'll last me at least 10 years. (The TV I have right now, a 40-inch Mitsubishi picture tube set, I've had for 12 years and it's never had to be fixed.) It seems like DLPs would be easier to maintain than flat-panels, since if a pixel on those dies you have to replace the whole set, but the DLP chip which actually makes the picture is small so if anything goes wrong with that you can just take it out and put in another, at a cost of a few hundred dollars vs over 1000 for a new TV. I don't know how expensive the color wheels are to replace if those go. I wanted to wait for the laser sets since those don't need a color wheel, but it sounds like they're going to be around $6000 and I can't go higher than $3000.
     
  19. ManW_TheUncool

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    Don't know about the Mits, but Samsung color wheels seem pretty reasonably priced. I just bought one for my in-laws' 4-yo set for ~$100 from Samsung's website -- color wheels for newer models might cost more. Seems like a bit of a pain to replace though -- ~2 hours of DIY work based on one blogger's guide, assuming one is reasonably handy w/ such things. I'll find out firsthand some time in the next month or so -- maybe over the Thanksgiving weekend.

    If the larger 73" is not a must, I'd suggest checking out the Samsung 67" LED-based model instead. No color wheel to worry about (and probably elimination of rainbows in practice), and no bulb to replace -- the LED light should last ~15 years or so on 8 hours/day viewing (for 50K hours total half-life), IIRC. The Samsung LED DLPs do seem to be a bit dimmer w/ a bit worse off-axis falloff though.

    _Man_
     
  20. Steve Berger

    Steve Berger Supporting Actor

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    Cnet seems to think DLPs might be making a bit of a comeback this Fall. Is rear-pro the way to go for a large-screen TV? | Fully Equipped - CNET Reviews

    My personal opinion is that a properly calibrated display viewed from a seated position in a properly lit room at the correct distance, will show very little difference between the various technologies. The flat panels look good in the store (RPTV cannot match that aspect) but must be dialed back considerably in a home environment. Some of them even have a "Showroom" mode that has to be turned off to even adjust the set.
     

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