Why have full range speakers? Everybody just sets the crossover to 80hz anyways! (1 Viewer)

[Christopher_Ham]

Are you guys sure that if I select "No Subwoofer" on my Lexicon DC-1, and small for all speakers except my mains, that the Dc-1 will reroot the LFE channel to the mains also? I read the instruction booklet and it said that if no is selected that it will mute the LFE channel. I am worried that if I select this setting I will be losing the LFE even if the mains are wired through the subs crossover.

 

[LanceJ]

BruceD said (I was waiting for someone to bring this up! )

Just a little more info; the mono bass being sent to both your left and right mains (two simultaneous bass sources) will typically cause phase problems in most rooms. Also, the typical best location for left and right mains is not typically the best location for a

 

[Zack_R]

And if I did, what happens when I don't sit in the same spot that I did all that careful calibration in? And what if I move a couch a few inches? Close a door or two?

The same thing you have to do now without a subwoofer except instead of only moving and adjusting one speaker (the sub) you'd have to adjust 5 speakers.

I know if I truly had 5 full range speakers it would be near impossible to get the bass aligned in my room as the bass would be originating from 5 different sources in 5 different locations.

 

[Christopher_Ham]

I agree on the reference level comments, I calibrated mine at the Lexicon suggested 75 db's. My max listening level, when I am giving a demo is -10. My normal is -18. I cranked it up once to +10 to get to reference, my god, the damn thing was loud. My wife complained it was loud outside!! That is the only time I did that. I want to be able to enjoy HT for years to come, If people keep listening to HT that loud, there will be nobody left to listen to it!! Besides, I find you notice more detail and clarity at lower levels.

Chris

 

[BruceD]

Chris,

If people keep listening to HT that loud, there will be nobody left to listen to it!!

I don't think so, a couple things about that;

1) It depends on how big your room is (volume in cu-ft) and how far you sit from your speakers, but calibrating to 75dB means reference volume at your seat will be 0dB not +10dB on your volume dial.

2) Reference volume equates to 105dB peaks at the listening position (because the calibration signal @75dB is recorded at -30dB from reference level).

3) The calibration tone is typically pink noise, which includes bass frequencies.

4) Many of the loud sequences on DVDs contain lots of bass and it is typically not a problem at 105dB peaks (remembering the Fletchur-Munson curve means less sensitivity to bass frequencies).

IMO, what people hear sometimes as they approach reference volume is distortion creeping in from speakers, room reflections, or the amps.

I enjoy listening to many DVDs at reference volume (0dB volume position) without discomfort. My room is >3000ft3 with openings to an additional >6000ft3 room.

 

[LanceJ]

Zack: To clarify & fix something I said--oops :b : I don't run my center and surrounds full-range. THAT would be a nightmare to blend together.

LJ

 

[Kenneth Harden]

Because, with my speakers, I can listen to material much louder and cleaner with bass management on!!!

If I am going to just chill with some tunes, I kill bass management and the sub, and it sounds fine, but with movies (Matrix) and most of my CD's, I would pop the woofers with the bass.

 

[Lewis Besze]

And woofer rattling during reference level listening? Yikes, I NEVER listen to movies that loud. Sorry, but IMO this reference level thing is causing a lot of needless worrying and MIScalibration for normal listening levels. Who--or what organization--made reference level so important to home theater playback systems???

As Bruce pointed out reference volume reffers to peak volume and the figures came from both THX and Dolby as a requirement for reproducing movie tracks faithfully.It is a requirement of the hardware and not the listener's.You can listen at any level you like.The calibration should be done at reference point,as being noted the calibration signal is being attenuated,so it won't be annoyingly loud while it's being done.The main reason for calibration is realtive speaker balance among each other,and that should be the same after calibration no matter where the master volume is set.So once you've calibrated at reference you don't need to redo this again at your comfort setting,just turn the volume where you like it,done.

 

[Mike Poindexter]

Some people, like myself, use full range speakers on all channels and do not use a subwoofer at all. I tried to put in a subwoofer just to see and it downgraded my bass quite substantially even when I kept all the speakers set to full.

I have had sat/sub combos in the distant past and have always preferred full range. I have yet to hear sats I prefer to my full range speakers.

 

[BruceD]

Mike,

It's not specifically sub/sat or full range + sub causing the degredation.

I think it's mostly the crossover to the sub needs some tuning (slope of the crossover) and the peaks/nulls at certain bass frequencies caused by the room's dimensions needs to be addressed.

 

[Lewis Besze]

Some people, like myself, use full range speakers on all channels and do not use a subwoofer at all. I tried to put in a subwoofer just to see and it downgraded my bass quite substantially even when I kept all the speakers set to full.

I can't argue with your experience,since I don't know your set up[never heard it],or your tastes and prefference for bass reproduction.The point is that no matter what kinda speaker you have [bookshelf/sub,or tower]they represent their own unique problems which must be dealt with,but they won't fix each other's as some think they would by suggesting one over the other.However there is different level of compromises, one just have to decide which to take.Sort of speak.

 

[Lee-M]

I have a system based on what a previous poster refers to as "refrigerator" speakers; the Klipsch Forte, which I have owned for 15 years (and still sounds terrific!).

I've added in the only center that is timbre-matched to these speakers (Academy), and use Klipsch RS3 surrounds (I'd run RS7's for better balance, but have placement requirements that insist on a smaller speaker).

My Anthem AVM20 allows for pretty good bass management (MUCH better than my former HK520); while I used to think that the THX standard of 80 Hz provided a cleaner soundstage, the Anthem has allowed me to flirt with a wider range from my speakers (I have set the crossovers for the different speaker "groups" differently, based on their frequency responses).

The result has been a more fuller sound, and small-step tweaking has allowed me to choose the best (to my ears) balance of fuller-range sound from my speakers and allowing the sub to do its work.

BTW, nobody who has listened to my setup has characterized it as "obsolete".

 

[PhilBoy]

Lee-M,

My apologies if my 'fridge' comment offended you or anyone else...

I guess that was a poor choice of words.

I didn't mean to imply that larger speakers were obsolete, only that with the advances in subwoofer technology, it is now more affordable for folks on a budget to own a descent system.

Also speaker placement is easier in smaller rooms.

I am sure that a properly calibrated 'large' system sounds spectacular.

A while ago I 'borrowed' a pair of Martin Logans for a test drive. The soundstage was unreal, but they just didn't sound the way they should have in a room the size of my HT.

On the other side of the coin, you folks with the 'fridge' set ups have a clear advantage for SACD & DVD-A which hardly makes your systems obsolete.

 

[David Judah]

Christopher,

As already mentioned it can still be advantageous to have tower speakers because crossovers are not brickwall filters and the speakers still need to reproduce some LF content. In addition, you have more internal volume which also helps with LF reproduction.

Also, tower speakers are often 3 way designs, so the midrange driver is free to reproduce the frequencies for which it was designed, not getting bogged down reproducing upper bass and lower bass from the crossover point.

Incidently Dolby and DTS I beleive, recommend full range speakers as the ideal set-up. Of course, that is often impractical so we have to make compromises.

DJ

 

[Lewis Besze]

Also, tower speakers are often 3 way designs, so the midrange driver is free to reproduce the frequencies for which it was designed, not getting bogged down reproducing upper bass and lower bass from the crossover point

Most sub/"sat" system is 3 way by essence though the crossover point is normally set lower,just like powered towers.

 

[Mike Poindexter]

I don't think I will ever run into anybody calling my system obsolete, either - even though the speakers are now 25 years old. I suppose if others here have "fridge" speakers then I suppose I have smokestacks or something.

Even the ideal set-up will have some compromises in it. You cannot escape that, as you will be forced to make compromises between audio and video, between stereo and multi-channel, etc.

All in all, I would say that it may not be practical for full range speakers all around, but it certainly is the way to go sonically.

 

[Christopher_Ham]

What are the exact reccomendations from DD and DTS regarding setup, what Freq Resp should your full range speakers be capable of to run all speakers on large, and at what Freq does the LFE channel alone start at if you are running large speakers all around.

Any answers appreciated,

Christopher

 

[Mark Seaton]

Hi there,

Good thread, and interesting that I just posted a quick response to a similar thread at AVS forum. You might find some bits of interest:
Is there any point in buying floorstanding speakers?

Where most people have problems is in the setup of bass management, as well as getting smooth response from a subwoofer. I hate to break it to you, but if you aren't measuring with something more accurate than a Rat Shack SPL meter, you don't really know what your system is doing.

I am quickly becoming of the mindset that we should say scrap the internal bass management for the moment anb use some of the cool DSP products currently on the market. Eventually they will incorporate such technology into HT processors. A good example would be something like a Rane RPM 44 or RPM 88.

 

[David Judah]

Most sub/"sat" system is 3 way by essence though the crossover point is normally set lower,just like powered towers.

You still have one midrange driver having to reproduce everything from the tweeter's crossover all the way down to the roll-off of the system crossover.

 

[Zack_R]

I hate to break it to you, but if you aren't measuring with something more accurate than a Rat Shack SPL meter, you don't really know what your system is doing.

The rat shack meter isn't perfect and it doesn't measure distortion. But I think it is still better than using only my ears to determine how room interactions and speaker limitations can manipulate frequency response.

In perusing many threads regarding problems dealing with integrating a new subwoofer, are not use any sort of audio measuirng device.

Regarding toweres versus bookshelves; I think you can certainly get a good response either way. I *visually* prefer a large speaker. It just seems more realistic in that a large speaker could be producing the bass even if it's not. In other words, it helps me forget that I am using a sub.