Why DVD-A and SA-CD cannot succeed. (1 Viewer)

[Lee Scoggins]

Rachael,

I consider telling someone they don't know the forest for the trees to be a personal attack. So you don't believe my point of view. Fine, but argue on the merits of the case. Where is my logic wrong?

If you are talking about complete mass market acceptance then say so. Even then, look at plasma TVs - they have certainly piqued the imagination of the masses. What about their cables? a complete disaster...let's see do we go with SCART, RCA, HDMI, DVI? Have you ever hooked up HD satellite. I'm about to and its complicated for me and I read 2 high end video journals every month for the last 10 years!

Your thread title talks to formats and whether they will "succeed". My definition must vary from yours because as long as I have the software titles and can play my beloved Super Audio discs then I am one very happy consumer.

I don't give a damn if some 18 year old high schooler likes it because he can't figure out the cables for surround (this doesn't really apply to us 2 channel guys and most of the SACD buyers does it? NO.) or because we don't have the latest Tool or Justin Timberlake album.

Also, you imply that I am wearing rose colored glasses. That is just unfair. I am making a case that a subset or portion of the market will become interested in better sound and pay for it. I am not claiming that either SACD or DVDA will gain mass market acceptance. Just because my outlook is more positive does not mean that my view is wrong or less valuable than yours.

I think its fun to speculate and discuss what the future may hold, but let's keep the discussion on the logic of each side, not directed at a particular participant.

If you want to argue against people paying a premium across all age groups and incomes, then please read Trading Up and you will see lots of evidence that this happens every day in the good ole USA.

 

[Rachael B]

Lee, I said I also took off my rose coloured glasses. I plainly stated that this thread is about mass market acceptance. You love SA-CD too much sometimes to notice or acknowledge it's warts. Thus the fun tree statements. I've bumped into a few myself on occasion. The woods are full of them.

It's as plain as white milk what this thread is about.

It's not about how wonderful it is that software manufacturers have a captive audience for higher priced discs specifically. It's about the big Muzak Companies preventing progress in the music market with their decrees. It's about woeful design, cable-mania! It's about how insincere the marketplace for hi-rez music is despite appearances. If the powers that be wanted these formats to succeed they'd give them proper connections. It's about exposing a rigged game.

I like SA-CD as much as you if not more. Myself and alot of other folks don't want to see it stuck in the mud. Therefore, I'm discussing said mud. I want mass market acceptance and so do many others.

You interjecting all this personal attack stuff is silly. My credibility is based upon my ideas alone. I'm hardly without fault, who isn't, but I think I've presented my case very well. I stand by it and humbly thank the many respondents who heaped praise on me, BTW.

When hi-rez is given simple connectivity it is a sign that the powers that be are serious about it's success. Best wishes Lee!

 

[LanceJ]

I cannot seriously believe that people think hi-res is complicated because it uses some extra cables.

What I do believe is the fact that no one seems to be informing non-audio types that hi-res is restricted to the analog outputs. And it's a fact of human nature most people don't read the (usually horribly-written) manuals, so the manufacturers should include a simple, CLEARLY written note next to the digital output that hi-res signals only emanate from the ajacent 5.1 RCA jacks. Same with the software people, this time somewhere on the disc's back label, until people universally know this fact.

Because Joe Sixpack isn't stupid about this, he just doesn't know about it--and why should we expect him to??? Audio is changing really fast these days, and not everyone is "into" technology just because they own a computer or a PDA--those things are just appliances to them, tools, etc.

And the cables themselves? I've seen several people on the audio/video forum lamenting the fact that they can't get into hi-res even though they own a hi-res player. Why? They say they can't afford the cables! Arrgh!!! Another dark victory for the overpriced/pseudo-science cable manufacturers. Just go buy some Ratshak Gold Series or AR "blue" cables from Best Buy, both around $10-14 a pair and your system will sound fine.

The only thing I see truly possibly causing a problem is lack of proper bass management for people with small satellites, say, with a woofer smaller than 5.25" in diameter. That warning about bass potentially being present in all five channels of a dvd-audio is no theory: my latest disc to prove this is Pet Sounds. The woofers in the rear channels can definitely be doing a jig, and not even at loud levels. And as I've said before, Linkin Park's dvd-audio has full-blown low bass in the center channel--IMO no dinky pair of 4" woofers in the typical center will be able to handle it without proper b.m. (unless you listen to it at dentist office waiting room levels, not likely with this music).

BTW: Oh gawd if see one more announcement of old music from 1972 in ANY format I think I'm gonna be sick. Younger people seem to have little problem operating home computers with all their menus & dvd-audio's menus are much simpler, and player menus (to switch between stereo & 5.1 tracks on sacd's) are only slightly more complicated.

Speaking of younger people: How many people here have let teenagers & early-twenties people listen to surround music (IMO stereo hi-res improvements are just too subtle for Regular Joes to care about)? And what did they think about it?

LJ

 

[dpippel]

Ah, I misinterpeted your post Jeff. I thought you were saying that smaller labels needed to get involved in high-res to pull J6P into the fold. My bad.

 

[PhilBoy]

Amen Rachael to your original statements ...

I'll wait for a digital connection (or 2 for the bandwidth), but I ain't paying $100 for cables to connect the player.

I have a musician friend who does his own hard disc mixing and used to swear he'd never consider 5 channel mixes... until he heard one on a buddies rig.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Rachael, I am only responding to your statements. Why don't you quit referencing me at all in your threads and we won't have a problem. Fair enough?

 

[Angelo.M]

The 'acceptance' of hi-rez formats, in my mind, has little to do with anything as specific as the number of connectors. It has much more to do with the very basic issue of the software not being compatible with the hardware that the vast majority of folks who listen to music own at present.

I think that hi-rez will be today and tomorrow--and a year from now, and five years from now, and a decade from now--a niche format with limited market share and limited appeal. All signs point toward average consumers wanting low-rez digital files, not 12 tracks on something that looks like a CD but doesn't play in their PT Cruiser's CD player.

For the majority of folks, hi-rez music is not the gargantuan leap in performance, durability and convenience that DVD is compared with the format it replaced. In fact, in terms of what is perhaps the key factor--convenience (and availability)--it's a large leap backward.

And, as I've said before, who cares? A niche format is no less valuable than a mainstream one. And if new artists aren't availabe on hi-rez, well at least they are available.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

This is similar to what I have been saying. Hirez can be quite successful even in limited release and still provide the economics for a strong (and high quality) release slate.

 

[Jack Briggs]

For a "disagreement," the Lee/Rachael back-and-forth exchange is mild. Let's leave it there. I don't think anyone has been "attacked." "Challenged" might be the more appropriate word. This thread is a lament about the denizens of the mundane world and the obstacle they present to the widespread acceptance of audiophile-level sound.

But since most of the music they listen to is squarely centered in the midrange anyway, what do they care? A thumping midbass is not "real" bass, nor do electric guitars reach the upper registers.

Those who flock to SA-CD (or SACD, whichever) and DVD-A tend to listen to serious music, and serious music hardly drives what the mundane world calls the "music market."

This is reality. Not that I like it, but it's the way it is.

 

[Rachael B]

Thank you Jack! I feel Lee was baiting me to serve his possible ends. However, I have the estrogen factor on my side.


Jack, you and I remember when nearly everybody had hi-rez, vinyl that is. It's a strange world where most people's quality demands of a product class has steadily shrunk. It's certainly not something I could of envisioned in, say, 1975. Come to think of it, not in'85 or '95 either....

Best wishes!

 

[Glenn Overholt]

Right Jack, they don't. If this niche (and I use that term loosely) is for the higher end audiophiles (that would more likely than not listen to classical music) that is fine, but that is not what we are hearing here.

I think Sony needs to evaluate how they came up with the Boomers as the key target. From what I am hearing here, a HTIB isn't going to cut it for hi-rez formats, and that means that listening to this on the way to work is out, and at a minimum at least a pair of floorstanders is necessary.

...and you'd really have to be 'into' music before you'd invest in that. What percentage of Boomers have setups like that? Not very many. Why does Sony think that Boomers would like this? Most are pre-computer savy, and would have trouble hooking up their PC's, let alone a HTIB or a full setup.

Could it be that Sony just counted out the age brackets on the registration cards that were returned for new equipment? Does the 'poll' really say that Baby Boomers are more likely to return registration cards because they want to make sure that their gear doesn't crap out on them before it should?

And oh, I can't wait to get 6 more cables to plug in. Whatever happened to the digital coax/optical cables? What? Music is too good for just one cable and they have to go back to analog now? (We can skip the AD, DD, DA lecture, please)!

And again, many a boomer has been to at least one rock concert. Hearing part of the group behind me would not be natural in any way, shape, or form, but all of this is just what this boomer feels, and I'll disclaim the rest of my generation, even if I feel that I am not in the minority here.

Glenn

 

[Rachael B]

Lee, we don't have a problem. I certainly don't. You like SACD threads which is what I expect. You're like a bear on a honeycomb when there are hi-rez threads, so be it. You're quite knowledgeable and intelligent which makes you an intresting player. The fact that you appear to promote the industry's agenda is OK. It gives a certain balance to these discusions. Accept the fact that I don't dislike you and it will be a more wonderful world.

I'm with Lance on the moldy oldies, enough is enough. Sony doesn't seem to comprehend the market segment they wish to target. If they did they wouldn't push ancient music so hard.

Average people may want to hear the same music that became beloved to them in their teenage years over and over again. The audiophile segment, I believe, operates differently. They may listen to older music but the older hits that appeal to the mass market will rarely be the tunes they cherish. I think the audio-vidiot segment is always looking for new music or atleast new to them. Average folks want to hear the same old, same old over and over again way more so than audiophiles, I think.

From where I sit, it appears that Sony is a bit confused on this. Then again, they've released so few pop/rock/hop discs in their 5 years so far maybe I'm reaching for this conclusion based on insufficent data?

Remember Lee, hard feelings are for park benches! Best wishes!

 

[Rachael B]

Glenn, I aggree. Furthermore, I think they're alinating everybody else too!

 

[Lew Crippen]

Back when everybody had vinyl, only a very small percentage had setups that got the max out of what was on the medium. The decision of what type of cartridge to use (for example) was only the beginning of a long chain of decisions (and expense) that audiophiles made in order to get the best possible sound from their systems.

Most consumers just grabbed their LP with their thumb and forefingers in the middle of the grooves and put that vinyl on a record player (not a turntable) with heavy tonearm and an inexpensive needle. They did not even wish to go as far as holding the record by its edges.

In the end, formats that do not promote convenience and ease of use won’t reach the mass market.

 

[Rachael B]

Lew, there a truckload of truth in what you're saying but back when average or only a bit above average record players syphoned alot of performance out of those vinyl platters. Vinyl has so much potential that you don't have to squeez it for all it's worth to get a fairly high performance level. Sometimes that seems lost in vinyl discussions I witness here and elsewhere in this day and age. Best wishes!

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Pop/rock vinyl in the late 70s and the 80s, was, in my opinion, not too much to write home about.

Thin, brittle vinyl, pressed by stampers that were often overdue for retirement.

My opinion.

I also owned a handful of records that squeezed close to an hour of music on a single disc. Awful! Zappa knew best; no more than 18 minutes a side.

 

[Marvin]

Me too! There are, however, quite a few from 1968 and 1969 that I'd love to get.

 

[LarryDavenport]

When I bought my universal player last September I picked up about 20 SACDs (not counting all the Rolling Stones I had already bought) and about 10 DVDAs. Since then I've only bought another 3 or 4 titles.

For Hi-Rez to suceed, with those of us who have already invested in the equipment, the record companies are going to have to take a cue from the DVD companies and release a few classics, a few cult favorites, and a few current records (in each genre) every month.

Right now I have only heard rumors of a couple "oldies" I want (King Crimson, Genesis, Pink Floyd) but no firm release dates. There have been no official announcements for SACD or DVDA titles that are worth putting on my calendar yet.

Personally, I would dump DVDA in favor of SACD hybrids because I think they sound the same and are probably easier to produce. Plus I can listen to the Redbook layer on my Discman or in the car.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

It was more sophisticated than that based on what I heard David Kawakami say in interviews. He suggests that The Tipping Point book is his guide and borrows a lot from Trading Up as well. In both those books, it suggests that early adopters are critical to establishing a new product and delivering benefits/value to them is the first strategy. We may not all be fans of 70s rock and classical, but if audiophiles are the more loyal music buyer and looked to as "reference points" in the market then it seems to me that David's and Sony's strategy is sound.

Imagine for a moment if Super Audio focused on the MP3 crowd. Due to the entirely different and expensive playback chain, it would be unlikely they could get more than 5% of that market. With audiophiles they probably got 50%-70% of that market and tons of great press and other intangible grass roots things.

Hopefully the high growth in the format and titles will continue and younger people will be pulled in, but I don't think we should lose sleep if Britney's latest is not out on hirez.

Look at the albums that have come out, they really fit David Kawakami's suggested strategy of a big album and classic series that has historically sold among the highest ever as a catalog title: DSOTM, Rolling Stones, Dylan, The Who, etc. Sony sells a ton also due to single inventory slotting and that allows them to advertise very strong sales numbers to prospective bands. A very compelling case to sign up for a big artist IMHO. Once you get the bigger artists on board, you go to the newer artists and branch out.

This all makes sense to me. The only thing I would change if it is indeed cost-effective is to get both Sony and Philips to issue all future albums in single inventory hybrid. That would raise the awareness more. I would also pay for a huge movie theater demo session as part of the trailers - AMC, Regal, Loews and others are all leveraged to the hilt and would be happy for the extra cash flow I'm sure.

 

[Marc Colella]

Hey, speak for yourself.