Why DVD-A and SA-CD cannot succeed. (1 Viewer)

[ElevSkyMovie]

Lee can paint his rainbow pictures everywhere about how the average consumer just has to "hear the SACD difference". Well, guess what, they can't hear a difference between MP3 and cd, they aren't going to hear a difference between cd and SACD/dvd-audio.

Here is what people want most: convenience. Mp3 is that. A person can take all their albums with them on the iPod. That's what they want. Does it sound good? I suspect 90 percent of the people who buy mp3 players wouldn't be able to hear the difference in an mp3 track and the cd in an a/b test. So why won't SACD/dvd-audio fly? Same reason LP's went away, they sound better, but are less convenient. Will some people be brought in by surround? Maybe a small percentage, but very few people sit and listen to music and do nothing else. Music is background, so I don't think surround music will ever pull in very many JSP.

Can record labels make money re-releasing this stuff? Yes, especially if all they do is a high-rez stereo mix. How hard/expensive is that? Not very.

If anyone thinks either of these formats will ever be huge, you're crazy. (No offense, Lee ) We just have to carry on and hope for more titles.

 

[Danny Tse]

I don't think this has been mentioned, but the masses are also hoping to download music, if possible, for free. Besides their inabilities to hear sonic differences between mp3, CD, and hi-rez, the masses want music for free. It seems these people think they have the "right" to "own" works of artists for no money.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Exactly. This is why I think hirez is here to stay. The incremental cost of the mastering is minimal and the customers are very loyal. And the label enjoys bigger profit margins on average. By the way, record labels studied the audiophile market and found that this type of buyer tends to buy in bulk, often whole collections of a genre put out by the labels they like. Also, several music execs have mentioned that the copy protection in these formats is very attractive.

As for me, I am buying everything that my new favorite engineer Jared Sacks at Channel Classics puts out. The man is a genius. I'm also on the MoFi bandwagon, with the exception of the well-recorded (absolutely lifelike!) but not my cup of tea Patricia Barber albums.

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The bottom line:

Super Audio/DVD Audio may remain a subset of the total audio market.

(I would say "niche" but that seems to be too limiting if the market continues to grow as it has in Super Audio.)

As long as titles and playback hardware are plentiful shouldn't we just sit back and enjoy the good music and extra quality thereof?

 

[Scott Strang]

Sometimes they sound better. I must say that I've heard some pretty hideous sounding CD versions of an album I had on LP. However if I take that LP and copy it to CD-R it sounds close enough to be hard to decern the difference. And it almost always sounds better than an stamped CD copy of that album. And my turntable, tonearm, cart and preamp are "junk".

J6P doesn't care about sound quality. The only reason CD got popular was because of the looks of the medium, "coolness" of the "laserdisc-looking" format and that it could be played loudly and cleanly with no noticeable acoustic feedback.

 

[Jack Briggs]

Hobbyist audio has never been big. And SA-CD and DVD-A are aimed at audio hobbyists.

The inhabitants of the mundane world, however, are under the impression that standard redbook CD is as good as it gets. It sounds good on their Sony Walkmans and boom boxes and portable "stereos."

Remember something important: The inhabitants of the mundane world, for the most part, still don't know what HDTV is. They cannot tell you what a "preamplifier" is. They have never heard the phrase "bass management." They have not heard of SA-CD. And if you asked a mundane-world inhabitant about DVD-A, he or she would only hear the "DVD" part and think, of course, you're talking about a movie on disc (hey, I know two people who refer to "DVD tapes").

Now, against this backdrop, how can one possibly expect the breakthrough success of SA-CD and DVD-A? To the inhabitants of the mundane world, MP3 sounds just fine. If the mass market is happy with the sound "quality" of downloads and looks to standard CD as merely a means to a burn-your-own compilation end, how can one ever hope two formats catering to hobbyist audiophiles to become mainstream?

Also bear in mind that for most people who are getting into home theater, merely hooking up an HTiB is a formidable task. These are people who otherwise never would have considered buying receivers and speakers and "all that stuff."

High-res, therefore, will always mean low sales at the cash register. (Remember Crystal Clear Records? Sheffield Labs? Direct-to-disc vinyl records were a niche market even when the 12-inch discs were Number One. They were "audiophile" thingies.)

 

[Michael K Hill]

Thanks Rachael for an interesting debate!

As someone who is new to Hi-Rez audio - and loves it - I hope that the formats continue to grow and gain acceptance.
But in order for that to happen, public awareness needs to be initiated.

I'll agree that it would be nice to have a SACD player connect with a single digital cable. In fact, I'm embarrassed to say that's how I thought they connected, but quickly realized I was wrong.

It has been my experience that when a customer decides he/she wants something, they seldom change they're minds based on what is required to hook it up. But we can't expect them to want something they've never heard of.

I know from reading this forum that many people have experienced the blank stare from friends and family as they try to explain what SACD is.

Recently Sony included a SACD (or is it SA-CD?) sampler disc in Rolling Stone's "Best Albums" issue, which is a good start, but more work is certainly needed. I've had salespeople in music stores not know what a DVD-A is. That certainly makes growing a new format difficult.

-Mike

 

[Rachael B]

Lee, you have no balance on this subject at all. You are completely unable to "wear" the eyes of an average Joe. You're an audio-vidiot el supreame!

1. Nobody will be switching to hi-rez audio because it's convient, it's not! Only a tiny minority of consumers will tolerate the ergonomic nightmares of 6 analog connections, they're called audio-vidiots or audiophiles.

2. As bad as the connections are, the menu adjustments are a far more threatening as was so eloquently pointed out by Phil A. This is why I choose not to fully inform my sis' of such. I'll let her hook it up. She'll likely be pleased if some degree of noise is coming from all the speakers. I'll fully disclose to her later, after the weapons of mass distruction are found.

3. A good selection of software for SA-CD is totally dependent on mass market acceptance. 1800 is not a large number. Use 1800 to create a fraction. 1800 over the number of music CD's that have been in print since that format's inception. I do not know what that bottom number is but it must be 50,000+...? So, the selection is poor and heavily weighted to back catalog titles that the Muzak Kompanies wish to revive.

Only mass acceptance can lead to greater title availability of both audiophile titles and popular stuff. Your very comments on this thread seem to indicate that record executives see hi-rez as a price gouging or value added format aimed at audio-vidiots, for now, proably permanently (my opinion)...?

4. Compassisons of SA-CD to Lasderdisc as niche products are inaccurate. Laserdisc was not a niche product. It was wildly successful in the Orient. It simply was provided to the tiny U.S. market segment because of it's success elsewhere and it wasn't too particularly costly to do so. The U.S. is not the capitol of el mundo! Laserdisc wouldn't have gotten past the 80's if U.S. sales had been the barometer. If SA-CD takes the Orient by storm and the U.S. market continues to flounder, well, then the parallel will be valid. Sorry, your analogy is not so good Glenn.

Lee, you're an intresting player but you don't know the difference between a forest or a tree sometimes! I hate to break it to you...

 

[Scott Strang]

I remember Sheffield but I was never lucky enough to hear any of their DTD. I have heard their CD's made from 30ips reference tapes recorded during the DTD session and those were easily some of the best CD's I've ever heard.

 

[John Watson]

Manuals have been mentioned a few times. I have often considered what I call ....the Zen of manuals....

Are manuals poorly written because no one bothers to read them?

Or does no one bother to read manuals because they are poorly written?


This riddle a propos of : A year or so ago we lost control of something on our little TV (accidentally hit some button or combination of buttons on the remote) and have never gotten in back. The matchbox sized Sony manual was incredibly useless to us. (If I'd run into Mr Sony in the next couple of days, I'd have wrung his neck on the spot!)

Bringing us back to topic : So if easier to use manuals, easier to make connections, easier to understand concepts (at least define the acronyms), AND attractive styling (I hate all those black boxes with sharp corners and tiny buttons, and the writhing snakepit of all the connections), was offered on the market place, I'd be glad to treat my ears more...

 

[gregD]

After a very inexpensive experiment (Pioneer 563 and a dozen discs), I'm willing to stay involved with hi-res on a limited basis... largely dependent on titles released... and I am very non-mainstream.

But I wouldn't try to sell this to anybody (I help friends and family setup home entertainment systems as a hobby)... mostly 'cuz they all fit the mass consumer profile detailed in prior posts (not a slam, they just don't listen to music as enthusiastically or attentively as I might).

On the few occasions I can install a little-better-than-average system, those folks are able to hear (and mildly appreciate) the difference, once it's been all set up and handed to them... but they don't want to know about connections, setup or tweaking of any kind. I'm supposed to do that once and go away... we few hobbyists here don't mind (okay, we enjoy) fiddling with the gear to achieve sonic bliss.

So if hi-res is a niche thing, so be it... with my limited resources, I can only hope for the development of better universal players, I guess.

I still have my laserdiscs... still have the turntable... and SACD-2 is coming... nuts.

 

[Jeff Ulmer]

Joe Sixpack is necessary if you ever expect to see titles by smaller independent artists/labels. The cost of remastering/remixing is not trivial, it can easily exceed the original recording budgets for some albums. Pressing and distribution are also issues that will stop smaller artists from releasing in hi-rez/multi channel.

Rachael is correct, hi-rez is too complicated for J6P, it is also way too expensive.

If record execs are thrilled with the copy protection, they obviously haven't found out that it is as easy to rip the CD layer as it has always been.

The only way I see multichannel surviving in other than a limited niche is if the hardware folk get reasonably priced surround systems into car audio.

 

[Matt Heebner]

I too have to agree with Rach. I have talked to numerous people about SACD and DVD-A. I have even put on some demonstrations showing the differences between redbook and hi-rez.

Ya know what....most, if not all didn't really care other than passing interest. And these are people who like and listen to music. But...they want convienece....download, burn and play. I have even had my mother. a total Standards fanatic, listen to my Diana Krall and Norah Jones SACD's. When I told her that these were hi-rez audio, she looked at me without any interest about that, and she listens to music probably 10 hours a day!

Its like HDTV , people are interested in the buzz word 'HD', but when they find out the cost and hassle (although not so much anymore) of getting it, they are turned off.
Add to the fact the whole 6 cable thing, special equipment, SACD only discs, DVD-A that can't be played outside the home, etc, and I feel this will only be a "audiophile" type niche.

I do want this to be big...I LOVE hi-rez music. I have a hard time listening to regular music, but I just don't see it being huge.


Matt

 

[dpippel]

I don't agree. Is Joe Sixpack the kind of person who buys the music most small/independent labels put out? For the most part I think the answer to that question is no. J6P buys mainstream releases that he/she hears being played on popular radio. Most acts with smaller labels don't fall into this category and are kept alive by their fan base, touring, and word of mouth. There are exceptions of course, but not many. And there are already smaller labels (Rounder, Sugar Hill, Red Rose Music, Chesky, Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs, etc.) putting out titles on high-res. But even if SACD/DVD-A were all the rage, I think a lot of smaller companies and independents would find the potential return on their high-res engineering dollar unprofitable anyway.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Again, these personal attacks do not advance the discussion.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

With all due respect to your Mom, if she had listened critically (carefully), then she would know the difference in quality. Did she listen to both versions - the redbook and a Super Audio comparison? The difference should be great on Norah Jones disc. That is the one I use to great effect on friends who visit the audio listening room.

Maybe what she has heard has been poor masterings or the playback chain is not transparent.

 

[Al B. C]

I am now reminded just why the hell I decided to stay out of these discussions a few months back.

Rachael brings up a very,very strong point that both of these formats are on the verge of distinction to the masses unless they can streamline the connectivity problem that exists.

She's right! Period.

The connections suck. All of us hate it. Why deny it?

Nobody here can convince me that they got the utmost in enjoyment out of spending a whole bunch of cash on 6 (count em 6) darn good cables when one would have done just fine.

We - most of us here - put up with this crap because we are passionate about our systems and the sounds that they reproduce. Most of the folks that I talk to on a regular basis are not that passionate. Most of them look at me like I'm insane if I tell them that I spent almost 6K on a set of speakers, let alone whatever ridiculous amount that I've spent on cables.

There is always a lot of banter about mass acceptance of these formats, well I don't give a hoot about mass acceptance.

I just want the music.

I am passionate about the music, not the format.

I say release the music and let the chips fall where they may. I'll be happy as long as the titles keep appearing on a regular basis.

As far as mass appeal, be careful what you wish for.

 

[Matt Heebner]

It's not that she didn't hear a difference...it's that it didn't mean anything to her. She, like most average people, is content with regualar CD quality. She doesn't see a need for hi-rez music. I have friends and aquaintances who all love music, but that don't see a need for hi-rez.

Hell, they think I am crazy cause I don't share the whole MP3 download thing that they all do.

Matt

 

[Jeff Ulmer]

Not necessarily, but the only way to get the mastering costs down is to have a lot of mastering houses competing for the business, which means more sales for the guys who write the software. Right now there are very few places that can master for SACD or DVD-A, and even fewer replicators. In order to make releasing in high-def financially viable for smaller companies there needs to be a less expensive entry into the market.

 

[Rachael B]

Lee, I have made no personal attacks against you. Note, my frequent use of little smiley guys! If I make a personal attack at you, you will know it! You refuse to discuss what I'm discussing. Watch out for those cedars, right there! You saying that someone's mother should be able to critically listen to some music and discern the Super Audio difference proves my point more than anything I could compose by my lonesome! The woman heard music and enjoyed it. Her enjoyment does not encompass critical evaluations. That never occurs to her. Maybe it would if one sample had horrendous vinyl record popping or skipping? That's likely to be her threshold of poor quality???

To imply one isn't as visonary as is theoretically possible is not a personal attack. I have called you no bad names, used no fighting words, and likely never will. If I disliked you, I'd tell you in no uncertain terms. I like you just fine because you're an intresting player.

For me to say you are changing what succeed means in this discussion is not a personal attack. Succeed in this discussion is cracking the mass market. When I bought my first SA-CD player 5 years ago, a So-ny 9000ES, I quickly came to hope the format would displace garden variety CD. I've never been remotely close to confident of such but there's always some hope.

Most adopters of technology hope that said technology will succeed in the marketplace and won't be soon orphaned. If SA-CD players could vacum the floor, paint ceilings, mend sweaters, or do something besides play various 12 cm (5") entertainment discs, folks wouldn't be so keenly intrested in the what's, why's, and where's of software availability or lack there of. They wouldn't be so intrested in the industry trends and I would not be typing this nor you responding to it.

This thread is about the realities of the hi-rez marketplace. It's about avoiding unreal expectations of SA-CD and DVD-A too. It's not about painting rosey, feel-good pictures. I removed my rose coloured glasses for it. I suggest you do the same mon ami.

I'm just a humble hilbilly and I have not been jetting to London or Tokyo just lately. I do know that the selection of SA-CD's is largest in the U.S.A. so far. I somewhat doubt that SA-CD is much closer to displacing competing audio formats beyond the two oceans that surround mi terra. I don't doubt that it might be doing slightly, incrementally better somewhere. Let's just leave it at I'm curriously dubious.

Again Lee, mi amigo, I'm not personally attacking you. You'll know it if I do! But, I wouldn't do that! Your ideas are fair game. Give a hoot, just refute! I won't let you change the parameters of the discussion to suit your ends. Again, this is not a personal attack. It's about boundries babe! Best wishes!

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Not true. Several of my friends own very small audiophile labels and the cost to produce a SACD is only marginally more expensive than a redbook and the difference in price more than makes up for it.

This is why so many small labels support Super Audio. They can make more money or as much money and get access to even more loyal fans and build their brand by offering higher quality.

The economics work fine now and the prices of replication have been dropping over the past 2 years.